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Double Bass Bass as only harmony instr?

#42
There are no rules. Two of my favorites, Mingus (as pointed out earlier), and Richard Davis, are very "activist" players "prodding" and pushing the music around and had pretty good careers by any measure. Different kinds of playing go in and out of style. I think, for example, that Shepp track is wonderful and can clearly hear the tune. Check out Thad and Mel and hear Richard Davis (who had a decent enough career to have his own brownstone on W 87th street when I took lessons there) occasionally stand a big band on its head.
 
#45
carl h. said:
Condescension aside, you sound like the guys who have been fired from the groups I was asked to join.


"Keep on task and stay true to the group. If your ego needs more, go start your own group." to paraphrase what I said before.
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I don't get fired very often, actually (I did once by Tom Waits!). I tend to get hired to because of the way I play. I can't remember the last gig I did required "an upright bass player".
I understand working players have to keep from upsetting the cart. I supposed there are two strains of this discussion purely musical/artistic vs. pro "keep the gig" codes.
 
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#46
Lets be real here. When playing behind someone else, the job is to make everybody sound better than they are. We try to make the mediocre players good, the good players great. Doesn't matter what context of the music is. The higher the level, the higher expectation that you can hold the fort by yourself and not get lost. So if you prod and push and dish it out, you better be sure you're on strong footing. And it all depends on the playing context.

If Miles rose from the dead and asked to play a straight ahead gig with him, I think we'd all get fired if all we did was stick to chord tones and roots. He'd want to be pushed and prodded as it would be safe to assume that would be his expectation from what we know. Who I play with matters. I'm not going to play the same way if I were to play with Wynton vs. Ethan Iverson. They will demand different things and some want more prodding than others. Some will allow more freedom than others and have different expectations. Playing it safe all the time does not always work for your longevity to get called again for a gig.
 
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#47
Huy Nguyen said:
Lets be real here. When playing behind someone else, the job is to make everybody sound better than they are. We try to make the mediocre players good, the good players great. Doesn't matter what context of the music is. The higher the level, the higher expectation that you can hold the fort by yourself and not get lost. So if you prod and push and dish it out, you better be sure you're on strong footing. And it all depends on the playing context.

If Miles rose from the dead and asked to play a straight ahead gig with him, I think we'd all get fired if all we did was stick to chord tones and roots. He'd want to be pushed and prodded as it would be safe to assume that would be his expectation from what we know. Who I play with matters. I'm not going to play the same way if I were to play with Wynton vs. Ethan Iverson. They will demand different things and some want more prodding than others. Some will allow more freedom than others and have different expectations. Playing it safe all the time does not always work for your longevity to get called again for a gig.
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Nobody remembers "right notes", but they do remember if, as a great piano player once said to me, "You led me down the garden path."
 
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#50
carl h. said:
No, I believe it is the ego of supreme musicians that will decide for everyone what is best. Some have decided that a trio with sax and drums should be led by the bassist in whatever direction their superior whim takes them.
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So what do you think of that big band cut I posted? Is Richard making it, or just jerking off in your opinion?
 
#52
After thinking about this, I'm not listening. This is a pointless discussion.

The OP asked about playing with a sax and drums. I play sax and drums. I gave my opinion. If the bass gods think I'm full of it then so be it. You have heard from a sax player about what one sax player would like to hear behind him while soloing. If you plan on backing Miles then good luck, that's going to be a hell of a gig and no way connected to reality.

Just know if you dick with stuff while I'm soloing, it was probably awesome bass playing, but I won't be calling you again.
 
#53
There is always the risk of not being called again, either because one player is too eccentric or too boring. The problem is always not knowing what the guy hiring you really wants in that moment. The best one can do is try out things that are not too excentric and check if the others can work with it and change back to something simpler if they don't.

On a jam session I try my way of playing even if others are not used to it, but before the rhythm breaks down or the soloist might get lost I go back to a supportive mode to stabilize things and be more careful the next time.

It often enough is a master and dependent, but it should not be that way as long as he gig will work and the listeners don't complain afterwards. We all have to support but also develop the music, so anybody should be free to try things as long as the others can work with it. We always have to listen and react, just sometimes it could be difficult to follow if you have to play some unknown piece of music and primarily need to get through. (But then there is not much we can experiment with anyway and the way we like to play and the style we are used to play might shine through automatically.)
 
#54
It's a mutual thing. If I play with someone who just wants a backing track for a bassist, I don't care to get called again. I'd rather not take those gigs as playing with those eccentric or boring types ends up like pulling teeth. Thank god I have a day gig and don't have to slog through that kind of crap. I have better things to do than be some other musicians sonic wallpaper. Same thing goes with groups whose sole intent is to recreate whatever they heard on an album down to the T. I'm not interested in cover bands either.

Carl, those kinda gigs, man they're all yours! Have them all! :)

IME, when I play gigs in places like cafes and such where there's foot traffic, the milquetoast playing doesn't really go over that well. Even the layfolk know when there's communication going on or even being attempted and more often than not, the groups I've played with stand a better chance of keeping them in their seats than if we were just to paint between the lines. Their eyes don't glaze over so quickly.

Back to the main subject. It's all about communication to me. Doesn't matter if it's a horn sax duo or a drummerless trio - the voids need to be filled and on top of that, inter-communication is what makes it all come together. If you can't do those two, the weaknesses show very quickly or everything has the same blandness. My $.02.
 
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#55
Sheesh! Interesting but prickly back and forth. Lots of what happens while playing with other musicians comes down to how well you hear as well as how well you can read other people. How adept are you at discerning social and musical cues? I don't want, or need gigs where I'm required to be the "time cop" and/or the "harmony marshall". These ideas/concepts should be share. Everyone should know where one is and everybody should have the tune structure in their head. I also don't want to or need to be in playing situations where players think it is imperative to take everything out. I begin to lose the point and lose interest.

Accomplished, intuitive, perceptive players who are not ego driven, usually have the necessary tools to make good, sometimes great music together in duos and trios. It can be like a great conversation; the more informed you are and the more vocabulary you have, the better the conversation will be.
 
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#56
Treyzer said:
I also don't want to or need to be in playing situations where players think it is imperative to take everything out. I begin to lose the point and lose interest.
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Agreed. I tend to like free or in. If we are playing a tune I like to use the tune - we don't need tunes anymore to play free. Of course there are great examples of taking tunes out by masters and the journey out and back has potential to be amazing in the right hands.
 
#57
Yes Damon. You make a good point. "Out" does not always mean harsh and/or atonal. I'm reminded of the Miles album, "My Funny Valentine" where Herbie Hancock drastically reharms "Stella by Starlight" close to the end of the tune. That band definitely took it out but, for me, it is incredibly beautiful and imaginative.
 

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