Double Bass Bass as only harmony instr?

[rolandm]

I'm in support mode so often, I often forget that I can play more complex stuff. A rule of thumb I have always stuck by is, practice like you're a virtuoso, perform live like you're the audience's safety harness. Because that is what it comes down to in many cases.

And I think that most of the guys in my band appreciate that, too. I lock it in with the drummer and we make the groove happen. To me outlining more obscure sections of a chord is not what I am there to do, and it's often what the solo instrument is doing anyway. When I am supporting, I follow the chord progression and lend weight to the chord tones where I feel it is imperative for the audience to have them, landing the changes when and where they should land, save any obvious walks to signal for chorus/verse/bridge, so the listening audience doesn't get lost. Sometimes that means inverting what I am doing. More often, though, the simplest line is the most elegant, and underpins the soloist's efforts without cluttering it up.

I do like to free up my right hand to groove a little bit more during those times where I am supporting a soloist, whether on the bass guitar or upright. And honestly, I've gotten more compliments on my tone and my playing from the audience when I make my left hand all about the foundation of the song.

 

[carl h.]

You need to remember what the group is doing. If you are playing for you is the music suffering? Over playing is one of the biggest musical crimes that happens in all genres.

I have replaced bassists who were much much better than I was in 2 groups because they kept on pushing and going out there when that wasn't what the group wanted. Serve the best interests of the music - even if you hate it, if it means roots then your course is set.

I play so much simple stuff that I can hardly stand it. Once in a while one of my other projects will play the same venues and people will be amazed I can play like that. But I play what the gig calls for. When I needed more I started my own groups to serve my needs - by design.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

I detest that there seems to be an unspoken shame about needing to play lots of roots.

Roots are awesome! I LOVE playing roots! No other instrument than ours has that power of the low fundamental. And depending on what chord tones and contrapuntal phrases we put in, we have the ability to shape a solo's destiny. All with a few little notes and a bit of rhythm and being creative with it. I was in a clinic with Ron Carter years ago, and complained about hearing root on 1 from every single player. He then proceeded to play lots of roots, but somewhere else than beat 1. Sounded pretty hip to me and this is one of the aspects I love about his note choices.

Play what the horn player wants to hear? Humbug! Maybe just to set things up, but once they've got a strong hold of it, I'd rather go places. It has to stop suffering first but after that, I'm trying to push everybody into the next plateau. Otherwise, if you don't do that, the music doesn't come alive. It's safe and boring. IMO, counterpoint is everything and setting up alternate parallel phrases. Lets not forget the power of pedals and repeated notes either!

It's possible to be supportive, play roots, yet take it where the soloist may not expect it. It's a fine line but I've found it's easier to think of a bassline as a counter melody. Otherwise, you end up sounding like Band-in-a-Box.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I think we can try to challenge the other players by playing something different than they expect, but if we find it doesn't work and makes the group unstable, we should get back to either more root oriented playing or simpler rhythmical playing. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try it again. Just listen and react so the group doesn't fall apart.
I try to keep the group in tempo if the others try to run away, getting faster, or slow down to death. But after some time if they don't react accordingly, I need to accommodate to their tempo or the timing might get lost.
If I play a note out of timing, I have to care that the next ones are clear and absolutely in timing to stabilize the timing again. So I have to go back to playing simpler automatically when I was the one who might have attacked the timing.

BTW, it doesn't mean we should avoid the root at all on the first beat, it can help playing it every first bar of two or four bars. Then we still have enough freedom to play of not to play the root on the first beat of the bars in between.

 

[Don Kasper]

Here is a nice example of a sax/bass/drum trio on a standard chord progression (with an original melody). I believe there should be enough collective harmonic DNA between both the bassline and melody/solo to clearly define the form and harmony.
Unless you're playing "free", of course.
I hear plenty of DNA here, BTW.

 

[Tom Lane]

And here's another, although with tuba instead of bass - the tuba performs an ostinato throughout on this cut:



There's an album that Blythe recorded with tuba and drums that was the first I'd heard as a piano/guitar-less trio and I thought it worked amazingly well. I'm not finding the album but One Mint Julep was one of the tunes. I remember how fascinated I was that the form's were so clear despite the lack of a harmony instrument. Of course, it helped a bit that all of the players were killing it, but then, isn't that always true?

I think this is one of the reasons why playing with duos and trios is so much fun - because the "give-and-take" interaction either works or it doesn't, and when it works, your expectations have risen.

Still comes back to listening and collaborating rather than dictating, doesn't it?

 

[Huy Nguyen]

I think we can try to challenge the other players by playing something different than they expect, but if we find it doesn't work and makes the group unstable, we should get back to either more root oriented playing or simpler rhythmical playing.

Right. Not everything works but sometimes you have to try. And sometimes the best stuff just naturally moves into a different space without effort. The hardest part is letting go and letting it happen.

We have to be on our feet and be ready to pivot at any point away from something that doesn't work, just as it is when you need to pivot into playing support when someone else loses their place. I see it as two sides of the same coin. Then there's those days that you can't seem to go wrong. That's when it's crazy fun.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

As I think about some of the duo/trio transcriptions I did of RB, he seemed to do more of what @Chris Fitzgerald refers to as "functional" harmony. The best way I can define that is to say that many of the harmonic phrases start with a root on beat one, and the next significant harmonic movement to IV or III or V also "tend" to get the beat one root treatment, not always, but the measures in between have less roots to support a more interesting melody in the bass line. IMO, that's a nice compromise because it makes the form pretty obvious without being "restrictive". Maybe Chris can provide a better description.

Here's an example I transcribed that I think illustrates my point; IMO, the form is clear but Ray's outline of it is sophisticated.

Great example, Tom. That's just Ray laying it down in a 2 feel on the head and playing "in the cracks" of the melody. This is a great example of why trio playing can be so much fun: in this format, the way Gene is leaving all that open space and the drummer is playing sparse time, Ray doesn't have to share the space with another other comping instrument. As far as the roots, they're all there when the harmony first happens, then he embellishes and plays a countermelody in the open spaces.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

The supreme master of bass as the only harmony instrument. You can hear an entire band (as Unca P says) in his sound and his non-bass sound.



I love Clark Terry but ****! What he does with 5ths tuning is incredible.

It's not on youtube anymore but dig up Lee Konitz and Red Mitchell's "Just One of those Things". Badass.

 

[damonsmith]

When in support mode, support!

As we learned from Chuck Mingus, it is often better to prod the soloist that support them. It is our job to shape the music and sometimes that calls for support others times intervention is needed!

 

[carl h.]

Who will decide if the soloist needs prodding?

 

[gerry grable]

Who will decide if the soloist needs prodding?

And if the guy you prod is the leader, you just might prod yourself out of a gig.

 

[damonsmith]

And if the guy you prod is the leader, you just might prod yourself out of a gig.

This is a good point - but what it really says is that support is either earned (by good, strong ideas worthy of support) or paid for! Either way it shouldn't be considered a given.

 

[carl h.]

This is a good point - but what it really says is that support is either earned (by good, strong ideas worthy of support) or paid for! Either way it shouldn't be considered a given.

So if we're playing Girl From Ipanema and the guy soloing sucks, it is my obligation to change the tune mid solo to something I prefer? Supporting the tune sin't a given?

 

[damonsmith]

 

[carl h.]

They could have just as well shouted Pennsylvania 6-5000 at random times and called it that.

I'm a believer of staying enough inside that you can recognize when you are outside.

(I had to stop at 2:34 as I couldn't take anymore. I'm not digging the sax at all)

 

[Tom Lane]

Maybe you guys are saying the same thing?

"It's a conversation, an interaction; sometimes you support, sometimes you push or state a change in direction, or start a new idea, and when and how is a matter of taste and a judgement call that sometimes you get wrong, but hopefully not too often or you'll be musically inappropriate and deservedly out of a gig."

Personally, I don't much enjoy playing with folks who don't try to add something to what I'm playing, but I don't want them dominating or dictating my ideas either. There's one piano player near me who's reputation is that he's "very aggressive." He's got great technique but his inappropriate musical outbursts and domineering musical personality keeps him mostly on the bench. Then there's another guy, opposite problem - very limited skills and creativity and when I play with him I wind up thinking to myself "at least BIAB has good time."

 

[carl h.]

I prefer to work with the other musicians rather than dictate to them.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

I dont' dictate so much but sneak it in. You know when the soloist has a handle on it and doesn't need so much support anymore. And if you upset his cart too much you can just go back to supporting like nothing happened. They usually don't notice.

 

[damonsmith]

So if we're playing Girl From Ipanema and the guy soloing sucks, it is my obligation to change the tune mid solo to something I prefer? Supporting the tune sin't a given?

Supporting the tune and supporting the solo are not always the same things. One of the great things about playing with thinking human being is surprise. If you have a complete musician with a bass in their hands, THEY have lots of options just one of which is supporting a solo.