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Bass Head - which one???

#21
Jens4343 said:
@MarkA - - You are tremendously helpfull - I cannot express my thanks loud enough.

I am trying to grasp the essence of what you are saying...

Now I have the Trickfish (8 ohm according to their home page )
TF410

And i still have the BC410 (older cabinet) apparantly 4 ohm.
BC410 | Cabinets | Bass | TC Electronic | Categories | Music Tribe - TC Electronic



I understand that it is a bad idea to use the cabs together due to the fact that the impedance from the Trickfish will be too low for the EVO-head, right?? (2,7 Ohms)

Now, on the back of the bass head there are 2 speakons- outtakes for cabinets.
View attachment 3646822

If I plug in the trickfish cabinet in one, and the BC410 in the other speakon (min 4 ohms) will that still make the impedancetoo low from the trickfish or is this just a problem if i link the cabinets and only use 1 speakon outtake from the bass head..


Sorry for my inaptness to understand this.
Click to expand...

No problem -- no need to apologize.

Thanks for specifying the cab (the two I looked up were different).

The way most amps and cabs are set up, connecting to the two outputs on the back of the amp is functionally identical to connecting the amp to one cab, then running a cable from that cab to the second. In both cases, the cabs will be wired in parallel and the resulting load will be 2.7 Ohms.
 
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#23
Jens4343 said:
@MarkA - - You are tremendously helpfull - I cannot express my thanks loud enough.

I am trying to grasp the essence of what you are saying...

Now I have the Trickfish (8 ohm according to their home page )
TF410

And i still have the BC410 (older cabinet) apparantly 4 ohm.
BC410 | Cabinets | Bass | TC Electronic | Categories | Music Tribe - TC Electronic



I understand that it is a bad idea to use the cabs together due to the fact that the impedance from the Trickfish will be too low for the EVO-head, right?? (2,7 Ohms)

Now, on the back of the bass head there are 2 speakons- outtakes for cabinets.
View attachment 3646822



If I plug in the trickfish cabinet in one, and the BC410 in the other speakon (min 4 ohms) will that still make the impedancetoo low from the trickfish or is this just a problem if i link the cabinets and only use 1 speakon outtake from the bass head..


Sorry for my inaptness to understand this.
Click to expand...

Your current amp, just like the Reidmar 750 and most other bass amps, has ONE channel of power amp. More or fewer Speakon connectors will not change that. The Reidmar is not specified as going below 4 Ohms.
By the way, most (not all) EBS cabs are 4 Ohms, but some are available in other configurations.

And if you like the low distortion, wide and rather flat frequency response of the EBS Reidmar, you might not be too keen on ie an Ampeg, Fender or GK, as they (and many others) typically have some built in filtering that is hard or impossible to compensate for.
Though, if you like that "baked-in" tone, that might not be a problem. I have tried some specifically voiced amps, and personally I see absolutely no upside with that.

Good luck.
 
#27
Jens4343 said:
and 2,7 ohms will hurt the bass head for sure..... well I guess I'll just have to stick to EITHER all 8 ohm cabinets OR all 4 ohm cabinets then....
Click to expand...

"Hurt the bass head for sure --" I don't know, but it will place it at risk and most likely void the warranty, if one is in place.

To be clear, with a 4 Ohm minimum head (as AlexanderB said), you can use ONE 4 Ohm cabinet.

With a head that will do 2.7 Ohms (or 2 Ohms), you can run a 4 Ohm cab and an 8 Ohm cab. Where this makes sense is with something like a 4 Ohm 410 (or 212, or whatever) and an 8 Ohm 210 (or 112, or half-whatever). The 8 Ohm cab still sees 1/3 of the power and the 4 Ohm cab 2/3, but each speaker sees equal power. If you want a modular small, medium, large setup, this can be a good way to go. You can do the same thing with three 8 Ohm cabs.

Two cabs, though, still gives you some flexibility and, provided each is 8 Ohms, does not require an amp to run below 4 Ohms.

A head that will do 2 Ohms will allow you to run two 4 Ohm cabinets. Some make the same amount of power (or close) at 2 and at 4 Ohms, which can be good or bad, depending on your cabs and situation.
 
#32
HolmeBass said:
Could be a problem. Both of those cabs together give a 2.67 ohm load so you need an amp that can support that. An amp that only goes down to 4 ohms won’t reliably drive both of those cabinets together.
Click to expand...
Exactly why I wonder if The Fafner TD-600 head is the one i need


This kit is avaiable at a resonable price (used gear)

upload_2019-12-29_17-41-34.png

EBS ClassicLine 212 Bass Speaker Cabinet (2x12" speakers 4 ohm)

David Eden 1x15" speaker (200 W 8 ohm)

Bass head:
upload_2019-12-29_17-43-11.png


SPecs:
Bass head at 620 watt w flightcase.

Tube preamp, 3-band EQ with mid-sweep og compressor.

  • front. Input, Gain (wpeak indikator), Compressor (w limit indikator), ByPass EQ (EQ trin), Bright, Bass, Low (Boost of low frequences), Middle, Mid Freq., Treble, Hi (Boost of high frequencies), Drive, Character and Volume.
  • Balanceret output, with Ground Lift og Post EQ.
  • Back: 2 x Speakon for cabinets, Effect Loop, Lineout and Tuner Out.
  • 600W (360 W RMS @ 4 ohms, 500 W RMS @ 2 ohms, Dynamic Output Power 440 W RMS @ 4 ohms, 620 W RMS @ 2 ohms)
  • Dimensioner: H:20cm B:58cm D43,5cm.
  • 19,5 Kg.
 
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#33
Jens4343 said:
Exactly why I wonder if The Fafner TD-600 head is the one i need


This kit is avaiable at a resonable price (used gear)

View attachment 3647020
EBS ClassicLine 212 Bass Speaker Cabinet (2x12" speakers 4 ohm)

David Eden 1x15" speaker (200 W 8 ohm)

Bass head:
View attachment 3647022

SPecs:
Bastop at 620 watt w flightcase.

Tube preamp, 3-band EQ with mid-sweep og compressor.

  • front. Input, Gain (wpeak indikator), Compressor (w limit indikator), ByPass EQ (EQ trin), Bright, Bass, Low (Boost of low frequences), Middle, Mid Freq., Treble, Hi (Boost of high frequencies), Drive, Character and Volume.
  • Balanceret output, with Ground Lift og Post EQ.
  • Back: 2 x Speakon for cabinets, Effect Loop, Lineout and Tuner Out.
  • 600W (360 W RMS @ 4 ohms, 500 W RMS @ 2 ohms, Dynamic Output Power 440 W RMS @ 4 ohms, 620 W RMS @ 2 ohms)
  • Dimensioner: H:20cm B:58cm D43,5cm.
  • 19,5 Kg.
Click to expand...
So just as a heads-up: the power will not be split equally between a 4 ohm and 8 ohm cabinet when connected in parallel (which is the default connection - the cabinets’ input jacks are wired in parallel). Twice the power (2/3 of the total) will go to the 4 ohm box, and only 1/3 will go to the 8 ohm box.

The way this works out is a resultant +3 dB for the 4-ohm box. Depending on each cabinets’ sensitivity rating this may work out great - say the 8 ohm box is 3 dB more sensitive - then they should be pretty well balanced.

If, however, the 4-ohm box has a higher sensitivity then it will dominate the sound output of your rig. If it has +3 or more dB advantage in sensitivity the volume from the two cabinets will be severely mismatched.

The other consideration is power handling, but at less than 500W RMS total I don’t think the 4-ohm 410 is in danger of being fed too much power. (It would get a max RMS power of 0.67 * ~480W = ~322W RMS.)

I say less than 500W because that’s what the head does at 2 ohms and you are presenting a 2.67 ohm load. Surprisingly the amp rates 440 @ 4 Ohms, so I guessed ~480W at 2.67 Ohms. All of these computations based on nominal impedance are sizing approximations anyway, so the numbers are rough to begin with.

Anyway, you can see how this kind of mismatch causes concerns and considerations. This is why many here recomend using two of the same cabinet.
 
#35
Jens4343 said:
So I got to get me a Fafner TD600 bass head - that will be able to run 2 ohms to run for example 2x12" + 4x10" cabinets with 4 omhs
what a lot of choices
Click to expand...

Jens4343 said:
Exactly why I wonder if The Fafner TD-600 head is the one i need


This kit is avaiable at a resonable price (used gear)

View attachment 3647020
EBS ClassicLine 212 Bass Speaker Cabinet (2x12" speakers 4 ohm)

David Eden 1x15" speaker (200 W 8 ohm)

Bass head:
View attachment 3647022

SPecs:
Bass head at 620 watt w flightcase.

Tube preamp, 3-band EQ with mid-sweep og compressor.

  • front. Input, Gain (wpeak indikator), Compressor (w limit indikator), ByPass EQ (EQ trin), Bright, Bass, Low (Boost of low frequences), Middle, Mid Freq., Treble, Hi (Boost of high frequencies), Drive, Character and Volume.
  • Balanceret output, with Ground Lift og Post EQ.
  • Back: 2 x Speakon for cabinets, Effect Loop, Lineout and Tuner Out.
  • 600W (360 W RMS @ 4 ohms, 500 W RMS @ 2 ohms, Dynamic Output Power 440 W RMS @ 4 ohms, 620 W RMS @ 2 ohms)
  • Dimensioner: H:20cm B:58cm D43,5cm.
  • 19,5 Kg.
Click to expand...

The Fafner is, by all accounts I've read, a stellar head -- I was keen to try one, some time back, though I never did -- and it might be that you'll love it (and, yes, it gives you the flexibility to run down to 2 Ohms). If it is local to you, by all means try it. However, I am not sure that you've thought this through.

According to the specs you've posted, the Fafner is actually a less powerful amp than the one you have currently. (The RMS numbers are the ones we're interested in -- not to mention that it isn't exactly the first amp I think of when I think Phil Lynott, Steve Harris, and Cliff Williams, whom you mentioned earlier in the thread -- but, then, I haven't played the head and it might get there admirably.)

You said that you liked the sound of the Ashdown head with the Trickfish 410 (8 Ohms) and, judging by the ad you've posted, you seem willing to schlep two big cabs. If both of those are true, the simplest path to more of the sound (or a sound) you like, in a reliable package, would seem to be a second Trickfish 410. 4 Ohm resultant load, 600 Watts (RMS) from your current amp, cabs guaranteed to match well, and, while I don't know the exact efficiency of the Trickfish cabs, a rig that I can only imagine would be blisteringly loud.

The EBS 212 and the Eden 410 listed with the Fafner might work well together (in terms of power handling, power distribution, and "playing well" together sonically) or they might not. I don't know. Two of the same cab are guaranteed to do so, and if you like the result with one, you are very likely to like the result with two.

I'm not saying don't check out the EBS+Eden rig. I am saying don't be too eager to chuck what you've got in favor of it without a compelling reason to do so.

Here is one possible course of action (suggested earlier):
  1. Get that HPF pedal and try it with the Trickfish cab (and the TC, while you're at it -- Why not? -- just be mindful that you can't add a cab to the TC and 4 Ohm head).
  2. Add a second, identical Trickfish cab if needed.
Possible reasons not to follow that course of action:
  1. Perhaps the Trickfish cab is quite expensive where you are.
  2. Two 410s is a lot to carry around on a regular basis (in my mind).
  3. You find an amp/cab combination that you like the sound of better.
#1 I don't know about. #2 might not be an issue for you. #3 is subjective, but maybe worth exploring. #2 (a more portable rig) could be worth exploring, too.

A 2 Ohm capable head offers some flexibility as to what you can hook up to it that a 4 Ohm head doesn't, true, but it's important to look into the details (like the impedance and the power handling of the cabs concerned and how much power the head actually makes at different impedances) and to have a solid idea of what you want to accomplish with that flexibility.

Again, I'm not saying don't go and try the rig -- maybe it sounds great, maybe it's a great deal, maybe you can sell off one of the cabs and get another of the one you like -- but don't be in a rush to get rid of what you've got if you're digging the sound with one cab and just want more volume.
 
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#36
Okay,

Had another look at your ad and looked up specs for the EBS Classic Line 212. (97 dB, 4 Ohms, 500 Watts RMS power handling). If the Eden cab handles 200 Watts RMS at 8 Ohms, as stated, that's actually a pretty good matchup from a power distribution standpoint -- the 212 will get roughly twice the power of the 115, but it also handles twice as much.

How they match up in other respects, I can't say, but give the rig a whirl if you can and see what you think. If you get it, make sure that the cabs are in good shape (speakers not damaged, etc.) and that the head is functioning properly in all respects.

You might also find the following to be of interest: A question for EBS Fafner users
 
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#37
Jens4343 said:
So as a matter of fact if I get the Fafner Head (capable of 2 ohms) I can get som cabs (either 2 cabs at 4 ohm) or 2or 3 8 ohm cabs.

Right?
Click to expand...
Yes a 2-Ohm capable head, like the Farmer, can support:
  • Up to two 4-ohm cabinets
  • Up to four 8-ohm cabinets
  • One 4-ohm cabinet and one OR two 8-ohm cabinets.
But my post was about how the output power of your amp IS NOT distributed evenly among cabinets with different impedances and how that could cause an output volume mismatch between your cabinets.
 
#39
Eddie LeBlanc said:
Bergantino is best....
View attachment 3646579
B|AMP Bass Amplifier
Click to expand...

Eddie LeBlanc said:
View attachment 3647290
Forté HP Bass Amplifier
Click to expand...

Cool. I'd love to try a Forté HP sometime. For $1400, will it sort the OP's cab situation, though?

On a less snarky note (sorry about that), it looks like a great amp and it might be that a more powerful head through the Trickfish 410 would be enough for his needs (OP would know better than I).

Still, if he's going to use two cabs, they need to play well together, regardless of the amp.
 
#40
I want to qualify some of the mess of stuff I've said in this thread.

I think that it's important to look into things like impedance, power-handling, power distribution between the cabs, and how the cabs play (or are likely to play) together -- i.e. will the stack sound uneven out in the room or respond to EQ in weird ways? -- at the most basic level, to reduce the likelihood of stuff blowing up and, beyond that, to ensure a decent and appropriate level of performance out of the gear-puzzle you're putting together.

Somewhere between "doesn't blow up and is loud enough" and "impeccably matched", though, are a whole host of options that could work -- and that you might even like -- whether or not they adhere to certain TB dogmas (or satisfy my sometimes obsessive leanings).

On the other side of things, while I (despite my documented gear-affliction) don't like the idea of tossing aside older but perfectly serviceable stuff -- or trying to solve a problem by throwing shiny new gear at it -- some of that shiny new gear is pretty neat. There are small (though not terribly efficient) cabs that will go really loud and small, powerful amps to get them there. If such a setup appeals to you and you have the scratch for it, go for it.

If you like the sound of a Frankenstein-ed old stack of amp and cabs -- and you've looked into it enough to make sure that you won't be shredding speakers or doing anything else too counterproductive -- go for it.

It can be easy to get lost in options and, while I mean well, I'm not sure that I always help with my sometimes overthought approach.

I'll still speak up if I think something's a bad idea or think that someone's missing an important consideration, but I don't want to discourage people who might be new to certain kinds of gear or give the impression that there's only one right way (mine!) to go about things.

That's all. Happy new year!
-M
 

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