Bass Players are Their Own Worst Enemy!

[Chris76]

So you play for the guy in the back of the room who isn't paying attention?

even if hes not paying attention, he will certainly be tapping his feet to the groove interrupting his heartbeat. Now I'm going to need to find some decent secondhand pre amps, power amps, and build Frankenstein out of everyones "too heavy to bother with" gear. Here comes the BOOOOM!

 

[honeyiscool]

So you play for the guy in the back of the room who isn't paying attention?

Beatles fans admire the songwriting and the playing on their albums but can't even tell if George played a Tele or a Les Paul or if Paul played a Fender or a Rickenbacker. It's more like that.

 

[guy n. cognito]

So you play for the guy in the back of the room who isn't paying attention?

A patron can pay attention to the music without opining on the instrument.

 

[JimmyM]

A patron can pay attention to the music without opining on the instrument.

And that is exactly why I said what I said.

 

[JimmyM]

Beatles fans admire the songwriting and the playing on their albums but can't even tell if George played a Tele or a Les Paul or if Paul played a Fender or a Rickenbacker. It's more like that.

THEY cared, though.

 

[honeyiscool]

THEY cared, though.

Nobody really knows that.

Caring whether you sound good isn't the same thing as caring about what are the specifics of you're holding at that moment.

They played through such a tremendous variety of gear and they always sound distinctly like themselves. Maybe they just picked an instrument and just decided to work with it that day. Maybe there was no real thought into what exactly the kind of tone they were looking for when they picked up that instrument. I mean, if they did care so much, how did they manage to make such a large variety of gear sound pretty much the same?

 

[murphy]

I've only had ~10 or 12 recording studio experiences, but I can't think of any where there was not a bass in the studio that the engineer "offered" for me to use.

I can think of a few where I used my own basses, and the end product sounded nothing at all like them and a whole lot like a P-bass.

Here's one - half of this album has a very modern sounding dual humbucker Skjold, half of it has a very vintage sounding J, and one song has a 6-string. Other than the one with the 6-string for obvious reasons, even I can't tell which bass is on which track anymore because they all sound alike to me:

Welll...That is because the producer likes to have a signature sound....and tons of compression ....probably

 

[Altitude]

Welll...That is because the producer likes to have a signature sound....and tons of compression ....probably

There was definitely a lot of compression on that recording. Quite a bit of suck knob in the mix, too.

 

[Chris76]

how did they manage to make such a large variety of gear sound pretty much the same?

Unless you've listened to them live, at almost every concert, there cannot be a way to say that they sounded the same all the time. Recordings, unless your listening to the raw/master, you can never tell. Producer's step all over them. On top of, THEY we're paving the way during that period for equipment and instruments. Comparing a bass to a piano is a little bit of an apples to oranges situation. No concert pianist is going to play on an electric casio, when there is a stringed piano available. Same with the majority here. We're not going to use a short scale ibanez gio when most of us tote our preferred instrument with us. For some, its about sound. For the majority, its comfort. I KNOW the quirks, if any, of my instrument. Why would i prefer one brand over another? Lets put this out there, i started playing guitar before bass. In doing so i learned that most of the fenders and gibsons of the world have a FAT neck. Why does it matter? My hands aren't exactly large in nature. So i shopped around and found several brands that have thinner necks, which made playing more comfortable for ME. Granted, that limited the variety of instruments that i would even consider buying but it became MY personal preference. Trying to be specific on gear other than the instrument during recording as stated prior, is futile. The producer and engineer are going to turn your sound into what THEY believe it should be. On stage is where it becomes preference because if it just doesn't sound right to YOU, then you are not going to enjoy playing the venue as you would if you had YOUR sound. Which may be the difference on being booked again, or passed over for a band that has better entertainment value.

Just my opinion as i see it.

 

[sears]

What I don't understand are the bassists that do hang out here when they're apparently just using an SVT + 810 and are completely happy with it, and get upset that other people need other options.

straw man

 

[JimmyM]

Nobody really knows that.

Caring whether you sound good isn't the same thing as caring about what are the specifics of you're holding at that moment.

They played through such a tremendous variety of gear and they always sound distinctly like themselves. Maybe they just picked an instrument and just decided to work with it that day. Maybe there was no real thought into what exactly the kind of tone they were looking for when they picked up that instrument. I mean, if they did care so much, how did they manage to make such a large variety of gear sound pretty much the same?

That's right...the later albums sound just like the earlier albums in every way

 

[Wasnex]

Of course. It's clear that most working bassists don't really care about gear as much as some. There are also some pros who do care a lot, especially those who play very specific original music, but a lot of those session players could sound good on anything and do end up playing anything.

IMHO, when you become a working pro, it becomes somewhat necessary to let go of your OCD about sound...it's really hard to get a good and consistent bass sound from venue to venue even with the best gear available. When dialing in my rig, I now just try to get an even response, a bit of clarity, and establish a reasonable balance with the other instruments...it's very rare that I can hear my bass a well as I like. I realize all the other subtle things I used to worry about are not realistically achievable in real world acoustic environments. Of course with IEMs it becomes a bit easier, especially if you have a good audio tech and a primo sound system.

What I don't understand are the bassists that do hang out here when they're apparently just using an SVT + 810 and are completely happy with it, and get upset that other people need other options.

People tend to be both myopic in their beliefs and tribal in their actions. Some people think that because an 810 works for them it is the ideal solution for everyone. It's natural group behavior for like-minded people to gather and ostracize others who do not share their belief structure...this reinforces bonds in the group and makes individuals feel good about themselves.

I don't enjoy performing with an 810, but I am open minded enough to accept that others love it, and I agree that the cabinet can sound great in the right musical context. Luckily many TalkBass members who love 810s are evolved enough to accept my choice in speaker preferences without casting stones.

 

[Kro]

IMHO, when you become a working pro, it becomes somewhat necessary to let go of your OCD about sound...

While I in no way consider myself a working pro, one of the best perks of being in a band that constantly utilizes backlines is all the cool (and sometimes less so ) gear that I get to try out in real-world gig situations. Ampeg, SWR, GK, Peavey, Mesa, TC, Hartke, you name it, I've probably tried it out at some point in time! Now if I actually remember it... that's another story.

 

[Wasnex]

While I in no way consider myself a working pro, one of the best perks of being in a band that constantly utilizes backlines is all the cool (and sometimes less so ) gear that I get to try out in real-world gig situations. Ampeg, SWR, GK, Peavey, Mesa, TC, Hartke, you name it, I've probably tried it out at some point in time! Now if I actually remember it... that's another story.

Even more important to let go of your OCD if if you rely on backline services. In over 20 years of touring, I used my rig on every gig except about 2-3. If my rig was an SVT and 810, that number would have been much higher. All of my rigs were much lighter and could be fully assemble with DI on top and rolled into place. Plug power, bass, and mic chord and I was ready to rock.

To be fair, you can wheel around SVT as long as your have a flatback 810 with a dolly. I am not strong enough any more to wheel around a modern 810 with an SVT on top. I could barely do it in the early 80s...course I don't like moving my tube monsters after playing until they have cooled for 10-15 minutes. All of the times I used backline services it was because stage hands would be shouting to get off stage after the set was over.

 

[honeyiscool]

That's right...the later albums sound just like the earlier albums in every way

Their sound by era was different, but there's a cohesiveness throughout an entire album's worth of songs, even though Macca might have been playing a Rick on one song and a Jazz on another. Like I said, this is probably why people can't tell whether George is playing a Gibson or a Fender, either. He's managing to make both of them pretty much sound like himself around that era.

And they changed their gear significantly between tours and such, but can you really tell that they're playing their American shows on gear that have almost nothing in common with their UK gear? Aren't they playing solid state Thomas gear in their US appearances whereas JMI tube gear in their UK appearances? Still sounds like them when it comes from the same era.

 

[JimmyM]

Their sound by era was different, but there's a cohesiveness throughout an entire album's worth of songs, even though Macca might have been playing a Rick on one song and a Jazz on another. Like I said, this is probably why people can't tell whether George is playing a Gibson or a Fender, either. He's managing to make both of them pretty much sound like himself around that era.

And they changed their gear significantly between tours and such, but can you really tell that they're playing their American shows on gear that have almost nothing in common with their UK gear? Aren't they playing solid state Thomas gear in their US appearances whereas JMI tube gear in their UK appearances? Still sounds like them when it comes from the same era.

Well you do make a point. I've always thought Paul sounded like Paul no matter what he's used, and basically the same for the other guys, even though their entire tonal aesthetic changed right around Rubber Soul. I'm very much a "tone is in the hands" type, too. But even though I can make do with practically anything (and have in the past), I really don't like to do it because there is gear out there that makes me struggle to get what I like out of it. And if I'm struggling, the band is struggling.

 

[bongostealth]

***edit***

Well... I certainly didn't intend to upset everyone so much. When I wrote this post, truthfully, I thought I was making good points that some of you might appreciate. I was wrong...

I'm playing a big bass rig now. My bandmates are all helpful when I need to move it. None of them want me to downsize. This is always the way it's been for me. My back still works... I guess I've been lucky. What I'm saying is, my perspective on all this is obviously very naive.

I'll try to be more sensitive to the TalkBass community in the future. I really "kicked a hornets nest" here, and I regret it.

Truce!

My .2 cents: do not be so quick to apologize for "kicking the hornets nest". You have every right (just like everyone else here) to vent and post an opinion, so long as it is done respectfully. There was nothing offensive or disrespectful about your post. It was an honest post based on personal experience. So what if people here on TB "take offense"?? You did not say anything wrong or offensive. People here on TB are WAAAAY too finicky and sensitive. Srew 'em. Too many people getting butt-hurt. Express your opinion and observations in a respectful way just as you did and don't look back. You have nothing to regret from your post.

 

[bongostealth]

Your arguments do not address how bass players are their own worst enemies.
You talk about what you like using for gear.
You say that bass players are giving up but don't expand on that point at all.
You believe that anything short of a fridge and an SVT is not appropriate equipment for playing bass.
But nothing in what you have said supports your premise that bass players are their own worst enemies.

You can carry whatever equipment you want to a gig. That's your choice.
You can even dislike what everyone else uses. I have no problem with that.
But you made a controversial claim here and have yet to present anything to back it up.
You didn't tie any of what you said in the body of your post to what you said in the title.

Your debate instructor would have you go back and do it over.

"Controversial"? Wow...

 

[Birdsbassist]

Bass players are their own worst enemy...


I've played keys in touring/weekend warrior bands for years. From experience, I know keyboard players are not usually the focal point. Case in point. I've been called to sub, and sit in with bands I've never even practiced with. "Just come and play the gig". I have a few friends that have "made it" in the keyboard world. Three guys in particular that are all playing stadiums, festivals and auditoriums around the world. They are all varying degrees of very successful at what they do. All three of them have joined me at some point on stage to no fanfare. Absolutely no one knew or cared who they were...

With that said... I've always... almost always carried heavy equipment. I'm not talking SVT 810 heavy. I'm talking 300lb Hammond Organ, 300lb Yamaha CP70, 150lb Fender Rhodes plus synths and amps heavy... All of these moved into and out of the venue with the help of hand-trucks, dollies, and bandmates. I've never had a problem. I've never been left behind. I've never gotten complaints that my rig was too big/heavy. It was all for the love of the craft. I've volunteered to bring lighter newer boards... Time and time again everyone wants to see and hear the older heavy keys. And... for those of you that complain about space in your CAR... I even had to buy my own trailer.

Five years ago I decided to take bass playing seriously. I really didn't know what I was getting into. I didn't know if I would be good. I didn't have the deep love for the pocket that I have now. I didn't have the relationship with drummers I have now. But... I f'n love it. I love playing bass, I love the rhythm section. The whole damn thing is magical.

Just like any other instrument... Bass can make or break a song, which brings me to my point.

Until I started perusing TalkBass, I had no idea bass players were so worried about weight. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever played with a bass player worried about weight. Maybe this is a relatively new thing?

Think about this... Guitar players roll out all the mighty tube driven gear they can afford. No one complains. The more drums the drummer has the happier everyone is. The keyboard player shows up with a B3, everyone cheers. The bass player has to shop for class D amps and neo cabinets??? to save their back??? ***???

Why are you, as bass players giving up your SVT's? Why aren't you getting help moving the fridge. I help everyone else move their rig, and they help me with mine. Why does the sacrifice fall on the bass player? Why not have a class D Leslie, or a class D Twin Reverb... Stop with the BS. Gig your 100lb head with your 150lb cab. Hold your ground. For the love of everything that is great about rock and roll, Save The Bass!

***edit***

Well... I certainly didn't intend to upset everyone so much. When I wrote this post, truthfully, I thought I was making good points that some of you might appreciate. I was wrong...

I'm playing a big bass rig now. My bandmates are all helpful when I need to move it. None of them want me to downsize. This is always the way it's been for me. My back still works... I guess I've been lucky. What I'm saying is, my perspective on all this is obviously very naive.

I'll try to be more sensitive to the TalkBass community in the future. I really "kicked a hornets nest" here, and I regret it.

Truce!

I have a rider.....so only thing im lifting is my bass!

 

[Birdsbassist]

I have a rider.... only thing I lift is my bass.