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Bass Players are Their Own Worst Enemy!

My keyboard players now turn up with Nords and Hammond modules and sound fantastic. Nearly all the guitarists I know leave their Fender Twins and AC30's at home and stacks? Forget 'em. My gear is light and sounds as good as any of the heavy gear I used in the last 40 years.

Don't get me wrong, I like the sound of an SVT but weight on its own isn't good or useful. Weight doesn't make the best sound or even a good sound. Other stuff does that and these days guys are designing some of the best sounding bass gear I've heard. Some of it is heavy but most of it isn't.

It's a great time to be a bass player.
I just started getting back into some well paid gigs on piano and yeah, forget about Nord or Hammond, I'm showing up with a Casio. It took a little convincing to myself to lower myself to be seen with a Casio logo, but in the digital world, there's not a lot of magic besides CPU power and sample size, and my Casio has a better piano tone than just about anything I've ever used. Certainly better than anything sub-$2000 from Yamaha or Korg. I run that thing through my cheap Pro DI to FOH and use a Quilter MicroPro HD (which is expensive, but super lightweight) as my stage amp. Stage pianos used to be so unsatisfying for me, largely lifeless compressed trash. This is actually a large part of why I stopped playing piano on stage because I'm a serious classical pianist who felt like all my skills were wasted by all the awful stage piano tone at the price range that was affordable. But modern technology has changed all that. My piano tone is leaps and bounds better than it was when I carried 50 pound Yamaha pianos and 60 pound Roland amps about 10 years ago. And it can't be the player because I was better back then.
 
I understand that the larger the venue, the less you rely on your rig and more on the p.a. as i also run sound. That also leads me to my next question, i keep hearing about tone and nothing of air movement, which is a MAJOR contributing factor to bass, why is that? How does less air movement (smaller speaker surface area combined with smaller internal cab area and little to no porting) equal the same?

I think this is actually a good discussion for this thread – as it might shed some light as to why smaller isn't always inferior.

Yes air movement is a major factor, but you need to think less of just surface area, and more in 3 dimensions in regards to total displacement. A driver that can move further in and out (xmax) will have greater usable volume displacement (Vd) and in theory be able to move more air. This is why some of these new "super cabs" are able to do so much in a small size, as the total usable displacement is MUCH increased over the standard fare. There are other tradeoffs there, some which require a mid-driver to compensate for, but in general this is why you get these seemingly incredible claims from the likes of Greenboy and Barefaced (that besides some hype are largely credible).

Just some maths for example. Most cab manufactures don't publish specs for their drivers, but we can look at some well-regarded aftermarket replacements from the likes of Eminence for some specs as a reference. For the below, let's compare an Eminence Legend B810 that I think is a decent proxy for a high-quality modern 10" driver that you'd see in an 810, compare it to some of the more typical neos, and then see how it stacks up to a few of the high-displacement drivers.

Eminence B810 Vd: 165.2cc, x8= 1321.6cc
- Note, keep in mind that this performance level is likely much higher than older vintage 810s

Typical Ubiquitous Neo 12" Eminence 2512-ii Vd: 255cc
- so in theory you'd need 4+ to get in the ballpark of that modern 810 noted above

Typical Ubiquitous Neo 15" Eminence 2515-ii Vd: 411cc

Eminence 3012lf Vd, used in most Greenboy 12s: 496cc

Eminence 3015LF Vd, like in my F115 and most Greenboy 15s: 846.0cc (single driver!)

Barefaced 12xN550 Vd, as used in the Big Twin II: ~500cc x2 = ~1000cc

There is more to it than just displacement, especially when it comes to frequency extension, so this isn't the be all and end-all assessment, but it gives a good insight as to what certain cabs are capable of for those that haven't had a chance to actually test out any of them in person.
 
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smaller internal cab area and little to no porting

Just to call this point out specifically, different speakers and cab designs will have different requirements for cab volume and porting, though I don't know that these are necessarily deficient on most modern cabs, even of the lightweight variety.

I would venture that on those cabs where internal volume, tuning and/or porting are cheated, that that's where those compromises that I mentioned in an earlier post come into play. IMO it's not the norm though for TB lightweight cab favorites.
 
Perfect relative pitch, what's that? I've heard absolute pitch referred to as perfect pitch, but I don't like calling it perfect pitch because I find that term to be inaccurate and it results in people making inaccurate assumptions and it happens less when I say that I have absolute pitch.

I define it as a person being able to sing in harmony given a reference tone.

Perfect pitch is being able to sing a specific tone without reference.

Relative pitch
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search
Relative pitch is the ability of a person to identify or re-create a given musical note by comparing it to a reference note and identifying the interval between those two notes. Relative pitch implies some or all of the following abilities:

  • Determine the distance of a musical note from a set point of reference, e.g. "three octaves above middle C"
  • Identify the intervals between given tones, regardless of their relation to concert pitch (A = 440 Hz)
  • the skill used by singers to correctly sing a melody, following musical notation, by pitching each note in the melody according to its distance from the previous note. Alternatively, the same skill which allows someone to hear a melody for the first time and name the notes relative to some known reference pitch.
This last definition, which applies not only to singers but also to players of instruments who rely on their own skill to determine the precise pitch of the notes played (wind instruments, fretless string instruments like violin or viola, etc.), is an essential skill for musicians in order to play successfully with others. As an example, think of the different concert pitches used by orchestras playing music from different styles (a baroque orchestra using Invalid Link Removed might decide to use a higher-tuned pitch).

Unlike absolute pitch (sometimes called "perfect pitch"), relative pitch is quite common among musicians, especially musicians who are used to "playing by ear", and a precise relative pitch is a constant characteristic among good musicians. Unlike perfect pitch, relative pitch can be developed through ear training.[1] Computer-aided ear training is becoming a popular tool for musicians and music students, and various software is available for improving relative pitch.

Some music teachers teach their students relative pitch by having them associate each possible interval with the first two notes of a popular song. (See ear training.) Another method of developing relative pitch is playing melodies by ear on a musical instrument, especially one which, unlike a piano or other fingered instrument, requires a specific manual adjustment for each particular tone. Indian musicians learn relative pitch by singing intervals over a drone, which is also described by W. A. Mathieu using western just intonation terminology. Many western ear training classes use solfège to teach students relative pitch, while others use numerical sight-singing.

Compound intervals (intervals greater than an octave) can be more difficult to detect than simple intervals (intervals less than an octave).

Interval recognition is used to identify chords, and can be applied to accurately tune an instrument with respect to a given reference tone, even if the tone is not in concert pitch.
 
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Just to call this point out specifically, different speakers and cab designs will have different requirements for cab volume and porting, though I don't know that these are necessarily deficient on most modern cabs, even of the lightweight variety.

I would venture that on those cabs where internal volume, tuning and/or porting are cheated, that that's where those compromises that I mentioned in an earlier post come into play. IMO it's not the norm though for TB lightweight cab favorites.
This is where they use insulation to mimic more air space. I've actually seen some "better quality" cabs use this as well. I'm not into music for the money, so most of my gear is secondhand, if not third or forth. I usually end up with cabs that are almost dead, meaning that either there is a voice coil on its last leg or the cab has a barely noticeable rattle to it making the previous owner less than happy as to them it is extremely noticable. This has given me lots of insight as to what i specifically want in and from a cab. The hardest, yet easiest thing to do would be to build my own but I've really not found a way to get the same level of depth from a cab that i can a sub scoop at comparable volumes. For example, i have 2 15 inch sub cabs made by peavey. One has an internal "scoop" or a design that does almost the same thing as a scoop, the other is a true scoop that stands 4' tall (late 80s peavey bw). There is no way you will ever convince me that the newer will move as much air as the older nor will the newer one hit you in the chest as hard as the older. I dont have to push the older as hard as the newer to get the same sound/tone/effect.
I can run my amp on volume setting 2 with the scoop but have to bump up to 5 with the newer one(both cabs 8ohms and 400w). Same bass, same sttings, no effects.

From experience (my own and others)over the years i have learned that I'd rather have too much for a venue than not enough.
 
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This is where they use insulation to mimic more air space.

How does insulation mimic more air space? More air space, like a cab with more internal volume?

There is no way you will ever convince me that the newer will move as much air as the older nor will the newer one hit you in the chest as hard as the older.

I believe this. You'd have to experience them for yourself.

I dont have to push the older as hard as the newer to get the same sound/tone/effect.

I could see this being the case, though it depends on how old and how efficient the older gear actually is.

From experience (my own and others)over the years i have learned that I'd rather have too much for a venue than not enough.

For me personally, I actually would consider my cab to be too much for my actual needs! ;)
 
Hi deadshovelhead :)

I believe my thoughts on this are justified. I'm not retracting...

good.jpg


Play that tube stuff!!!!! :D

may the bass be with you

Wise(b)ass
 
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I'm just trying to wrap my head around how that would mimic increased internal volume.

By tricking the driver into reacting to the internal air space with an absorbent material as it would the "correct" airspace. The internal volume can be decreased as there will not be as much pressure created inside the cab due to the insulation. Basically giving the internal air something else to "flex" against rather than just the cone.
 
Hello. My name is Eric DK, and I am a recovering G.A.S. addict. I was my own worst enemy for a bit, and then reality hit; I had to start putting down the rear seats of a FourRunner because of the gear I "needed" to get the job done. LOL!
I used to believe ALL the hype of "the" gear to have etc. I have learned to get out of my own way, prioritize gear/equipment etc. and now my ENTIRE rig/gear has a footprint smaller than a Princess with a glass slipper...
Class "D" for rehersals and small venues, and a DB751 (sorry, no compromising) for medium to large venues, Barefaced 610 and/or Barefaced Super Twin (212) and a bass with a compression pedal. Bing Bang Boom, done. WAAAAYY TOO much hype with IMO GK "Neo" products, MB800 used to work for me until I heard the Mesa D800+! Less is more.
...but if I had roadies I'd get the new... LOL
 
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By tricking the driver into reacting to the internal air space with an absorbent material as it would the "correct" airspace. The internal volume can be decreased as there will not be as much pressure created inside the cab due to the insulation. Basically giving the internal air something else to "flex" against rather than just the cone.

Interesting, I've never heard of that before. I've heard of insulation being used to dampen certain frequencies, or reduce standing waves. I tried doing some research on it to see what I could find and couldn't find anything for using insulation for that reason (essentially fooling a driver into operating like it's in a bigger box). Do you know of any references by any chance that might give a better explanation as to what's going on there?

Edit: found some, very interesting. It appears that it isn't so much that it changes the way that the driver functions as much as just the general boom reduction can make up for certain issues in tuning (that could similarly be fixed by using a larger box, though they address the issue in different ways). Hmm...

Edit 2: just came across this link which summed up much of the info I had found elsewhere.
 
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Bass players are their own worst enemy...


I've played keys in touring/weekend warrior bands for years. From experience, I know keyboard players are not usually the focal point. Case in point. I've been called to sub, and sit in with bands I've never even practiced with. "Just come and play the gig". I have a few friends that have "made it" in the keyboard world. Three guys in particular that are all playing stadiums, festivals and auditoriums around the world. They are all varying degrees of very successful at what they do. All three of them have joined me at some point on stage to no fanfare. Absolutely no one knew or cared who they were...

With that said... I've always... almost always carried heavy equipment. I'm not talking SVT 810 heavy. I'm talking 300lb Hammond Organ, 300lb Yamaha CP70, 150lb Fender Rhodes plus synths and amps heavy... All of these moved into and out of the venue with the help of hand-trucks, dollies, and bandmates. I've never had a problem. I've never been left behind. I've never gotten complaints that my rig was too big/heavy. It was all for the love of the craft. I've volunteered to bring lighter newer boards... Time and time again everyone wants to see and hear the older heavy keys. And... for those of you that complain about space in your CAR... I even had to buy my own trailer.

Five years ago I decided to take bass playing seriously. I really didn't know what I was getting into. I didn't know if I would be good. I didn't have the deep love for the pocket that I have now. I didn't have the relationship with drummers I have now. But... I f'n love it. I love playing bass, I love the rhythm section. The whole damn thing is magical.

Just like any other instrument... Bass can make or break a song, which brings me to my point.

Until I started perusing TalkBass, I had no idea bass players were so worried about weight. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever played with a bass player worried about weight. Maybe this is a relatively new thing?

Think about this... Guitar players roll out all the mighty tube driven gear they can afford. No one complains. The more drums the drummer has the happier everyone is. The keyboard player shows up with a B3, everyone cheers. The bass player has to shop for class D amps and neo cabinets??? to save their back??? ***???

Why are you, as bass players giving up your SVT's? Why aren't you getting help moving the fridge. I help everyone else move their rig, and they help me with mine. Why does the sacrifice fall on the bass player? Why not have a class D Leslie, or a class D Twin Reverb... Stop with the BS. Gig your 100lb head with your 150lb cab. Hold your ground. For the love of everything that is great about rock and roll, Save The Bass!

***edit***

Well... I certainly didn't intend to upset everyone so much. When I wrote this post, truthfully, I thought I was making good points that some of you might appreciate. I was wrong...

I'm playing a big bass rig now. My bandmates are all helpful when I need to move it. None of them want me to downsize. This is always the way it's been for me. My back still works... I guess I've been lucky. What I'm saying is, my perspective on all this is obviously very naive.

I'll try to be more sensitive to the TalkBass community in the future. I really "kicked a hornets nest" here, and I regret it.

Truce!

Personally, I'm in no way offended by your post, and I agree with you. I still tote heavy gear, although I've done my best to go modular with my cabinets; meaning I use a pair of 2-12's, instead of a 4-12", because I've typically had to move my gear by myself.

I applaud micro bass heads, and lighter weight cabinets. I do own a micro head and a pair of 1-12" cabinets, and I'll use them when I don't require higher volume.

When higher volume is necessary, I happily bring out my rackmounted power amp, preamp, and bigger speaker cabinets. I enjoy their sound, and I can deal with moving them.

Best regards.
 
Beginners often think that bigger is better for bass. Not as much now as years ago, but you still find guys in love with 18s adn 100 lb heads. As you get better, you can refine your sound an d eliminate the unnecessary. Its like advancing in the practice of some Eastern philosophies. As one's craft becomes purer, one needs less cumbersome gear to ply one's craft. It's sometimes easy to accidentally sound condescending when dealing with less advanced practitioners. I used to use lots of big heavy gear, moved on to small, light gear. I have achieved amplessness years ago, but only recently have I attained the penultimate step; I no longer even need a bass.
 
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I have read the entire thread. Maybe glossed over a few - ha!

... Why are you, as bass players giving up your SVT's?...

... Stop with the BS. Gig your 100lb head with your 150lb cab. Hold your ground. For the love of everything that is great about rock and roll, Save The Bass!
People buy gear for all kinds of reasons. Size, weight, cost, power, tone, flash, nostalgia, this one has stripes, I hate yellow, so-and-so plays one. The buyer weighs those reasons and makes a choice. That's all it really is.
 
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Well... I certainly didn't intend to upset everyone so much. When I wrote this post, truthfully, I thought I was making good points that some of you might appreciate. I was wrong...

I'm playing a big bass rig now. My bandmates are all helpful when I need to move it. None of them want me to downsize. This is always the way it's been for me. My back still works... I guess I've been lucky. What I'm saying is, my perspective on all this is obviously very naive.

I'll try to be more sensitive to the TalkBass community in the future. I really "kicked a hornets nest" here, and I regret it.

Truce!
Epic hornet nest unkicking fail.