Bass Players are Their Own Worst Enemy!

[gjohnson441496]

Bass players are their own worst enemy...


I've played keys in touring/weekend warrior bands for years. From experience, I know keyboard players are not usually the focal point. Case in point. I've been called to sub, and sit in with bands I've never even practiced with. "Just come and play the gig". I have a few friends that have "made it" in the keyboard world. Three guys in particular that are all playing stadiums, festivals and auditoriums around the world. They are all varying degrees of very successful at what they do. All three of them have joined me at some point on stage to no fanfare. Absolutely no one knew or cared who they were...

With that said... I've always... almost always carried heavy equipment. I'm not talking SVT 810 heavy. I'm talking 300lb Hammond Organ, 300lb Yamaha CP70, 150lb Fender Rhodes plus synths and amps heavy... All of these moved into and out of the venue with the help of hand-trucks, dollies, and bandmates. I've never had a problem. I've never been left behind. I've never gotten complaints that my rig was too big/heavy. It was all for the love of the craft. I've volunteered to bring lighter newer boards... Time and time again everyone wants to see and hear the older heavy keys. And... for those of you that complain about space in your CAR... I even had to buy my own trailer.

Five years ago I decided to take bass playing seriously. I really didn't know what I was getting into. I didn't know if I would be good. I didn't have the deep love for the pocket that I have now. I didn't have the relationship with drummers I have now. But... I f'n love it. I love playing bass, I love the rhythm section. The whole damn thing is magical.

Just like any other instrument... Bass can make or break a song, which brings me to my point.

Until I started perusing TalkBass, I had no idea bass players were so worried about weight. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever played with a bass player worried about weight. Maybe this is a relatively new thing?

Think about this... Guitar players roll out all the mighty tube driven gear they can afford. No one complains. The more drums the drummer has the happier everyone is. The keyboard player shows up with a B3, everyone cheers. The bass player has to shop for class D amps and neo cabinets??? to save their back??? ***???

Why are you, as bass players giving up your SVT's? Why aren't you getting help moving the fridge. I help everyone else move their rig, and they help me with mine. Why does the sacrifice fall on the bass player? Why not have a class D Leslie, or a class D Twin Reverb... Stop with the BS. Gig your 100lb head with your 150lb cab. Hold your ground. For the love of everything that is great about rock and roll, Save The Bass!

***edit***

Well... I certainly didn't intend to upset everyone so much. When I wrote this post, truthfully, I thought I was making good points that some of you might appreciate. I was wrong...

I'm playing a big bass rig now. My bandmates are all helpful when I need to move it. None of them want me to downsize. This is always the way it's been for me. My back still works... I guess I've been lucky. What I'm saying is, my perspective on all this is obviously very naive.

I'll try to be more sensitive to the TalkBass community in the future. I really "kicked a hornets nest" here, and I regret it.

Truce!

Lol. I see you've recently joined. Hehe. Hey man. When I joined I was taken aback by the whole "my bass weighs 10 pounds and it's toooo heavy" meme. Nevertheless, I feel empathy for those with physical problems. I'm also grateful for neodymium speakers and class d amps. I'll keep my 12+ pound 77 Fender P bass, though.

 

[Charlzm]

Pfah. Whatever works. Over the last 35 years I have had tube amps and solid state, combos and cab/head rigs. For my next gig, I'm planning on taking only a Darkglass pedal and some cables (since I'll be going direct to the board).

All I care about is how it sounds to the audience, and that's a function of carefully crafting your sound and hoping the sound guy is working with you. No sound guy? My current rig is capable of taking care of that, more or less.

To the OP - I started getting rid of my vinyl in 1986 because CDs were becoming available. In 2007, I started ripping my CDs to mp3s, so that tells you about my relationship with technology.

Like I said, whatever works. You want a giant fridge cab and a tube head and have no problems moving it around? Good on you.

 

[chris_b]

Think about this... Guitar players roll out all the mighty tube driven gear they can afford. No one complains. The more drums the drummer has the happier everyone is. The keyboard player shows up with a B3, everyone cheers. The bass player has to shop for class D amps and neo cabinets??? to save their back??? ***???

My keyboard players now turn up with Nords and Hammond modules and sound fantastic. Nearly all the guitarists I know leave their Fender Twins and AC30's at home and stacks? Forget 'em. My gear is light and sounds as good as any of the heavy gear I used in the last 40 years.

Don't get me wrong, I like the sound of an SVT but weight on its own isn't good or useful. Weight doesn't make the best sound or even a good sound. Other stuff does that and these days guys are designing some of the best sounding bass gear I've heard. Some of it is heavy but most of it isn't.

It's a great time to be a bass player.

 

[Josh Kneisel]

It's a relatively new fad IMHO that is gaining popularity due to Class D amps sounding pretty good and being real small and still loud. I notice it as a trend more with the older players than younger. I'm 32 and have no problem using any combination of the heavy amps and cabs I own. I don't own anything light weight, but wheels, hand trucks exist for a reason.

 

[Josh Kneisel]

FWIW I still use my 610 and my road rack case mounted GK 700RB all the time. Smaller gigs simply get the smaller cabs.(1x15 or 4x10) really small gigs only get the SansAmp.

 

[Jim Carr]

i say uh-uh, no, not "anything." i'm a confirmed mini rig booster, but nothing sounds as good as a CA-9 properly mated to a fine tube pre, e.g. an F2-B. not your rig or any of the other rigs i've owned, or anybody else's rig. there's the CA-9 and then there's everything else...

"Nothing?" You mean nothing else for you, right?

I've used the CA series a lot, and I know about the supposed "low frequency feedback" in the CA-9 design. I find that the Crest Prolite 3.0, and for that matter, the Mesa M9, Mesa Subway, and GK mb800 are all great. I like tube heads, but don't find them superior for what I do.

For me, what really matters is to avoid clipping in any stage of my signal chain. I doubt you mean that a CA-9 is the only way for me to do that.

 

[Spacecase]

Note - when it comes to B3/Leslie, I don't think any modeler is quite there yet.

Here are a couple videos to consider. The XK-5 sounds pretty true to the B3, right down to the contact noise. I'd bet the internal Leslie simulator is plenty close enough for an ensemble gig.




But back to the thread, I use a 39-lb all-neodymium full-range 12" cabinet and a micro head. The rig fills a restaurant/bar without difficulty, and I can voice it to suit the music at will. My older (read big and heavy) cabs are collecting dust.

Full disclosure: I have a Medicare card.

YMMV, EIEIO, LSMFT...

 

[Munjibunga]

Any perceived improvement in the sound doesn't justify the hassle of moving heavy gear. I don't need to bother my bandmates for help loading in and out.

 

[BadExample]

Been gigging since 12 y.o., 65 this year.

Still have my big iron Sunn amps/2x15 cabs. Plus several other: 4x10 Sunn, 6x10 Sunn, 1x15Also have an Acoustic 150/6x10 guitar cab that I've also used for bass. And in the den, a 15w tube Alamo 1x15 (replacement Big Ben 225w guitar speaker). My Broughton always-on HPF that arrived today should allow me to use pretty much any rig for bass, at different volumes of course.

Recently jamming with buds in various rented studios with various backlines. With my active, 3-band Ibanez Musician P/J, pick or pluck, palm mute and bridge foam, I can get a more than acceptable FOH tone with any amp provided. Since I've done sound for several bands over the years, I listen to our group, or any group for that matter, as a sound "guy". This helps me set my bass in the mix at the venue rather than try to get "my tone".

Lots of choices these days. Whatever works FOH(neo,non-neo), IMO, should be the main goal besides having fun.

And, until recently, according to my wife (perfect relative pitch, human juke box), the bass is not part of the melody or vocals so it's just there to be felt and support the rest of the band. Now she says I ruined live music for her because she can pick out all the parts of the mix and what instrument is sounding good or not.

It's all good if you're playing at home or out.
Bottom line, it's music!

^^^Folks with questions should listen to brother Stumbo. If you don't have any questions, then listen twice as hard, because you should.

And, until recently, according to my wife (perfect relative pitch, human juke box), the bass is not part of the melody or vocals so it's just there to be felt and support the rest of the band. Now she says I ruined live music for her because she can pick out all the parts of the mix and what instrument is sounding good or not.

Now that cracked me up. My wife said that I ruined music for her by introducing to her a good subwoof/balanced sound. Not those words, but that's what she meant... about 1% of the sound systems in her home country are not an annoyance. Kinda like me!

 

[tradernick]

Here are a couple videos to consider. The XK-5 sounds pretty true to the B3, right down to the contact noise. I'd bet the internal Leslie simulator is plenty close enough for an ensemble gig.

Okay, so I kind of meant that in a club, the feeling you get in your body off a real B3 through a real Leslie might be hard to replicate... but holy crap! That XK-5 is incredible. I'm gigging with my keyboard geek friend this weekend so I'll be picking his brain about this. Great link, thanks.

 

[elkkid2]

I have the van. Which means the PA, drum kit, bass rig, and everything else generally end up in my care. That means I do a lot of hauling, but it keeps me more fit than I would be otherwise. It also means the whole band helps load, load in, set up, load out, and then unload. So, it works out fine. It's pretty common that FOH just handles vocals and acoustic guitars, which means the bass amp carries the room more often than not. Being able to do that when necessary is good.

The last 7 or 8 years in particular, the soundman has subs , and I'm in those. But, there's plenty of pickup gigs where I'm supplying the power for bass. I always try to find out first. (I used to have two full SVT Classic 810 rigs, if I needed to really throw a party! I miss that.)

 

[Korladis]

in some scenes that's exactly what you do and expected

That literally describes most of my shows.

 

[Chris76]

Just to be devils advocate here, you go out and drop a k or more on markbass or genz gear, how long before its in the shop for repair? Do the wafer cabs last, or do they fall to pieces after a couple of years due to the constant pounding inside the cab? Does the wafer thin wood carry tone as well as thicker woods?
We put all this research and thought into buying a bass and then just grab a cab because its light and will work?
Reminds me of cars. You used to be abke to buy a mustang for 5k. Drive it into a telephone pole and have a dent in your steel front bumper. Now that mustang will cost you 6 times that and that same telephone pole will completely total your car. (But its better made) lol

 

[Kro]

Do the wafer cabs last, or do they fall to pieces after a couple of years due to the constant pounding inside the cab? Does the wafer thin wood carry tone as well as thicker woods?
We put all this research and thought into buying a bass and then just grab a cab because its light and will work?

So, I've tried to be very careful (mostly) with my responses in this thread, because while I'm very much against the notion that using smaller/lighter gear requires compromises in tone or construction quality, it is true that if you keep pushing the limits, there is a point with cabs where construction and sound quality will be impacted in the name of smaller and lighter.

In short, as I've said before, there's downsizing, and then there's downsizing.

As far as I can tell, there are three areas where technological advances have allowed for cabs to become smaller and lighter without sacrificing any type of structural or tonal quality:

1. Fewer drivers: high displacement drivers allow for fewer drivers to do the same amount of work as typical drivers
2. Lighter drivers: in short, neodymium
3. Smaller boxes: drivers that can function optimally in a smaller cab volume don't need as big of a box which equals both size and weight savings (in general though, I think that this is mostly related to point one above)

Given those advances, it's entirely possible to build a cab with optimal volume/tuning, and with all the proper bracing and structural rigidity/road-worthiness (same quality plywood) and have it still be smaller and lighter than cabs that don't utilize similar tech. Again, no compromises – at least no more than any other cabs (yes I realize that all cabs have their compromises from an engineering perspective).

There are cabs in existence, in my opinion, that do make too many concessions in the name of size and weight, and I feel like when neos first came out there may have been a rush to the bottom in terms of weight that may have resulted in earlier neos being even more susceptible to these compromises. With that being said, they are great for those that need the reduction and are willing to sacrifice some low-end extension and/or road-worthiness for it (some may even prefer the tone!), but it shouldn't be assumed that all modern cabs are making those same concessions.

 

[Chris76]

it is true that if you keep pushing the limits, there is a point with cabs where construction and sound quality will be impacted in the name of smaller and ligher.

Most likely NOT the right thread for this, but since the last post brought me here.....


I understand that the larger the venue, the less you rely on your rig and more on the p.a. as i also run sound. That also leads me to my next question, i keep hearing about tone and nothing of air movement, which is a MAJOR contributing factor to bass, why is that? How does less air movement (smaller speaker surface area combined with smaller internal cab area and little to no porting) equal the same?

 

[honeyiscool]

It's a relatively new fad IMHO that is gaining popularity due to Class D amps sounding pretty good and being real small and still loud. I notice it as a trend more with the older players than younger. I'm 32 and have no problem using any combination of the heavy amps and cabs I own. I don't own anything light weight, but wheels, hand trucks exist for a reason.

I bristle at words like "fad" being applied to Class D when I'd imagine that the great majority of audio amplifiers being today are Class D, from smart phones to venues.

I'd imagine that to many engineers, non-Class D instrument amps being embraced for their vintage tone feels like more of a fad.

 

[honeyiscool]

Just to be devils advocate here, you go out and drop a k or more on markbass or genz gear, how long before its in the shop for repair? Do the wafer cabs last, or do they fall to pieces after a couple of years due to the constant pounding inside the cab? Does the wafer thin wood carry tone as well as thicker woods?
We put all this research and thought into buying a bass and then just grab a cab because its light and will work?
Reminds me of cars. You used to be abke to buy a mustang for 5k. Drive it into a telephone pole and have a dent in your steel front bumper. Now that mustang will cost you 6 times that and that same telephone pole will completely total your car. (But its better made) lol

That Mustang that looked fine in a crash would often result in the driver losing his or her legs. The new Mustang could crash into a semi and the driver might still walk away.

Seriously, look at some head on collision videos of an old muscle car vs. something like a Smart Car. The muscle cars look like they won. But the crash test dummies inside tell a different story.

 

[honeyiscool]

Been gigging since 12 y.o., 65 this year.

Still have my big iron Sunn amps/2x15 cabs. Plus several other: 4x10 Sunn, 6x10 Sunn, 1x15Also have an Acoustic 150/6x10 guitar cab that I've also used for bass. And in the den, a 15w tube Alamo 1x15 (replacement Big Ben 225w guitar speaker). My Broughton always-on HPF that arrived today should allow me to use pretty much any rig for bass, at different volumes of course.

Recently jamming with buds in various rented studios with various backlines. With my active, 3-band Ibanez Musician P/J, pick or pluck, palm mute and bridge foam, I can get a more than acceptable FOH tone with any amp provided. Since I've done sound for several bands over the years, I listen to our group, or any group for that matter, as a sound "guy". This helps me set my bass in the mix at the venue rather than try to get "my tone".

Lots of choices these days. Whatever works FOH(neo,non-neo), IMO, should be the main goal besides having fun.

And, until recently, according to my wife (perfect relative pitch, human juke box), the bass is not part of the melody or vocals so it's just there to be felt and support the rest of the band. Now she says I ruined live music for her because she can pick out all the parts of the mix and what instrument is sounding good or not.

It's all good if you're playing at home or out.
Bottom line, it's music!

Perfect relative pitch, what's that? I've heard absolute pitch referred to as perfect pitch, but I don't like calling it perfect pitch because I find that term to be inaccurate and it results in people making inaccurate assumptions and it happens less when I say that I have absolute pitch.

 

[JimmyM]

I bristle at words like "fad" being applied to Class D when I'd imagine that the great majority of audio amplifiers being today are Class D, from smart phones to venues.

I'd imagine that to many engineers, non-Class D instrument amps being embraced for their vintage tone feels like more of a fad.

I don't know about fad, but I sure do know a lot of sound techs who tried class D heads for subs and eventually went back. They would gladly trade them in for lighter gear, but they tried it and didn't like it.

 

[ghostinthemach]

Special Games two weeks ago. One of the rare outdoor stage gigs I still get to play. This thing

is very different from this

I move each alone. It's worth the extra effort for accuracy and that Acoustic rig is not as heavy or awkward as some seem to think. At my age part of my thing is I'm a rock bass 'historian'. Who else is gonna do it?