basses for newbies (SX batch build thread)

[Jo6Pak]

If there is a Harbor Freight Tools nearby, might wanna consider one of these for $59.99:

Invalid Link Removed

 

[FunkMetalBass]

TS, I'm now considering trying to do the same thing for my local high school. Time to check the pawn shops for a cheap Fender knockoff in relatively good condition.

 

[chunger]

Finished up the shielding on #7

These are stock Nordstrand NP4's going in. . . I'm using hot water pipe insulation for my pickup foam. I was wandering around home depot and it seemed to have the right "squish factor" so I bought some. It comes in 8 foot lengths. I used 2 layers under the P-bass pickup. Perfect.

My standard wiring configuration for P-bass. . . I decided to use 20 gauge silver plated teflon wire for the heck of it. I have to use 22 gauge for anything having those push/pull pots because the lugs are small, but for this, the 20 works fine, so why not?

The nut needed some touching up on all 4 strings. . . notice the new Stewmac nut files. Hopefully these will last longer than the Norman ones did.

I had been experiencing some knob slippage particularly on the push/pull pots, so I have started doubling up on my little zip tie inserts to add more friction to the stock SX knobs on these Bourns pots. Lots of friction now. . . these knobs are solid.

New tool from Stewmac to help my setups. I'm moving on from my business card with mm hash marks penciled in on the edges. This tool is very nice. I debated whether to stay with metric measurements (Stewmac sell a standard and metric version of this tool) for my action or move to inches. . . and I decided to make the switch to inches because my dial calipers and everything else I measure is in inches. So, I will have some mental adjustments to make and I had to refer a lot to the conversion tables etched on the back of the rule, but I'll get it after a few goes.

It takes me ~30 minutes to file down and de-burr the stock SX string retainer, so I've purchased a pile of these from Stewmac. . . I don't think they look as sexy as the round ones, but they sure do work better and at ~$2.00 a pop, I'm switching to these. In order for the normal Fender (non slotted) round retainer to work, it would have to be moved away from the nut right next to the 3rd tuner. I tried one in the stock SX location. . . the strings would not stay on the retainer.

And bass #7 is done

This one is a lightweight and weighs in at an honest 8.53 lbs. It sounds really similar to #4. The Dunlop strings are working great (I like them better than the DR's). I have action set to .085" at the 12th fret. . .a little lower (.005") on the G and a little higher on the E. The stock NP4 has tons of clarity and has that grindy P-bass thing going on in buckets. A bit of buzz on the D string is what I'm fighting. . . I may try running a little more relief, but I think I have a functional setup. I may go back and tweak the rod 1/8 turn at a time, but I'll let the bass and strings settle in over night before mucking any more.

Well, time to re-set the table and pick another bass to start in on. I've got some NJ4SE's to test so it'll probably be a jazz bass. . . but for now:

 

[Billy K]

will Jassaman have this one sat to play?

 

[chunger]

will Jassaman have this one sat to play?

Jasaman's having a crazy week. I haven't even been able to meet up to pick up #3 for electronics retrofit even though I have all the parts in hand. I don't think I'll be able to get him #7 before tomorrow. Maybe next lesson? I know you were looking for a P. This one is an excellent copy.

 

[chunger]

Managed to mix down some more of the test samples tonight. . .I think they are much more balanced this time from sample to sample.

First the control recording of the stock pickups mixed in this session so all settings are constant
<a href="http://tindeck.com/listen/vhch"><img src="http://tindeck.com/image/vhch/stats.png" border=0></a>

Fantastic Voyage Series mode tone wide open (where applicable)

Bass #3 Nordstrand NJ4
<a href="http://tindeck.com/listen/dfbg"><img src="http://tindeck.com/image/dfbg/stats.png" border=0></a>

Bass #3 GFS Jazz
<a href="http://tindeck.com/listen/beuw"><img src="http://tindeck.com/image/beuw/stats.png" border=0></a>

Bass #3 Nordstrand NJ4SE
<a href="http://tindeck.com/listen/edcj"><img src="http://tindeck.com/image/edcj/stats.png" border=0></a>

Bass #3 DiMarzio Model J
<a href="http://tindeck.com/listen/wrnu"><img src="http://tindeck.com/image/wrnu/stats.png" border=0></a>

Bass #4 Nordstrand NP4 (please excuse the janky setup)
<a href="http://tindeck.com/listen/tyyy"><img src="http://tindeck.com/image/tyyy/stats.png" border=0></a>

Bass #4 Nordstrand NP4 10% overwound
<a href="http://tindeck.com/listen/exbv"><img src="http://tindeck.com/image/exbv/stats.png" border=0></a>

Bass #5 Fender MIM
<a href="http://tindeck.com/listen/mlkx"><img src="http://tindeck.com/image/mlkx/stats.png" border=0></a>





Come on Come Over bridge pickup only tone wide open

Bass #3 GFS
<a href="http://tindeck.com/listen/twiz"><img src="http://tindeck.com/image/twiz/stats.png" border=0></a>

Bass #3 Nordstrand NJ4SE
<a href="http://tindeck.com/listen/lxtt"><img src="http://tindeck.com/image/lxtt/stats.png" border=0></a>

Bass #3 DiMarzio Model J
<a href="http://tindeck.com/listen/vtsz"><img src="http://tindeck.com/image/vtsz/stats.png" border=0></a>

Bass #5 Fender MIM
<a href="http://tindeck.com/listen/vwit"><img src="http://tindeck.com/image/vwit/stats.png" border=0></a>





Master Blaster

Bass #4 Nordstrand NP4
<a href="http://tindeck.com/listen/vheq"><img src="http://tindeck.com/image/vheq/stats.png" border=0></a>

Bass #4 Nordstrand NP4 10% overwound
<a href="http://tindeck.com/listen/ldmd"><img src="http://tindeck.com/image/ldmd/stats.png" border=0></a>

 

[Jim C]

Just listened to the samples of Fantastic Voyage through studio monitors.
A perfect illustration that stock SX pups sound as good as anything made; just a matter of taste (IMO)

Think the SE's are my favorites followed by stockers although the difference could be EQ'd in a mix and possibly not heard in a live setting
The NP4's have an interesting harmonic thing going on that would work great on certain songs but am not so sure I want to be locked into this on my main play-everything bass.
Model J's are exactly like I remembered them to be (loud, clean, and generic) think I'll take them out of a 70's Jazz that was studio bass and has been set up with these since the mid 80's
MIM's sound very nice but too scooped for my style
Great test (again)

 

[chunger]

I got a new 50 watt temperature regulated soldering iron that's been working really well for me (Aoyue 937+ via amazon), so I'm hoping I don't burn up any more push/pull pots. I'm still getting a feel for temp settings, but I'm really able to control the solder flow onto parts better.

Replacing my mostly dead Ebay diamond fret file with Stewmac ones will cost ~$200 because I end up using the coarse 150 grit a lot on these SX fret level jobs. . . sometimes, I'm removing quite a bit of fret to compensate for the "craftsmanship". . . luckily the frets are pretty jumbo. I don't know if I'll ever get in the green on this project. The diamond files save so much time on the fret dressing that they're worth the extra cost.

Thinking about buying either a drill press or a neck jig. . . well, if I have a drill press, I could make my own neck jig so it goes 'round and 'round. I'm finding out over and over again that conditions under string tension are not the same as conditions with the neck static. I certainly can't afford a Plek machine and at the price point of these basses, I can't afford to send them out for Pleking, so the next best thing is a jig. Just thinking. . . if I can get my setups .010" lower and play clean. . .

I played #7 at the studio to test various new preamps, and my new setup really makes a huge difference on how that NP4 sounds. Still, very grindy, but I think the P's got shafted in my last batch of testing because I didn't know how to set them up and they had too little relief. . . plus, the nut was all hacked on #4 at the time. Additionally, I think the hex core Dunlop strings sound better than the DR extra life's. . . they are not as zingy on the top end and really breath well. . . just fantastic strings. IMO they respond better to the NP4 even though they are lower tension and have to set up .005" higher than the DR's. I probably should have stayed with a standard string on all these builds, but I was in a hurry to hear #4 and Dunlops were back-ordered at the time. Oh well, I'm not going to pull $30 strings that sound fine off my personal bass just for kicks.

I spoke with Mike, one of the pickup winding alchemists at Nordstrand on Friday. We are continuing our experiments with the P-bass pickups. I'm happy enough with the stock NP4 to be putting them into builds without reservation especially when paired with the Dunlop strings. I personally would rather see deeper bass extension but understand that these were voiced "grindy and hollow" on purpose and that's a classic P-bass characteristic. Live, the pickup cuts through really well especially at low volumes. We know what over-winding does. . . loses a little bit of the hollowness and gets a bit more mid-forward, but I think the NP4 was wound pretty hot to begin with, so we're thinking about going with slightly longer/stronger magnets with the standard wind to see if we can get a little deeper extension without losing all our top end.

We'll see. . . change one variable at a time and test. On the jazz bass side, they've told me to send in a set of stock SX jazz pups to see if we can figure out where the magic is in them that we like so much. I'm open to testing, but if there are a lot of "custom" variables, by the time we get through all of the mods to the stock NJ4, the price will be comparable to the NJ4SE which I personally think kicks butt and am happy at this point to standardize on.

 

[bassbenj]

Just listened to the samples of Fantastic Voyage through studio monitors.
A perfect illustration that stock SX pups sound as good as anything made; just a matter of taste (IMO)

Think the SE's are my favorites followed by stockers although the difference could be EQ'd in a mix and possibly not heard in a live setting
The NP4's have an interesting harmonic thing going on that would work great on certain songs but am not so sure I want to be locked into this on my main play-everything bass.
Model J's are exactly like I remembered them to be (loud, clean, and generic) think I'll take them out of a 70's Jazz that was studio bass and has been set up with these since the mid 80's
MIM's sound very nice but too scooped for my style
Great test (again)

Aren't these tracks absolutely astounding? I knew that my SX has grown to be a "go to" bass while the MIM Fender sits in the case, but the reasons are clear as day here. Those stock SX pickups do indeed kill while the MIM Fender is insipid mush. Yes, I can and DO EQ the Fender live to get a nice tone, but the SX needs no fiddling around! No wonder I love it so much.

Also like you I love the sound of the SEs as well. I was wondering before why people were pulling their SX pickups and now I wonder even more, however, the advantage of the SEs (and the MIM Fenders I might add) is the dual coil humbucking feature which the SX pickups don't have and at some point I'd like to have. Hence... Making a note that Nordstrand SE are the thing to order!

 

[chunger]

Also like you I love the sound of the SEs as well. I was wondering before why people were pulling their SX pickups and now I wonder even more, however, the advantage of the SEs (and the MIM Fenders I might add) is the dual coil humbucking feature which the SX pickups don't have and at some point I'd like to have. Hence... Making a note that Nordstrand SE are the thing to order!

Quick correction. . . please note this MIM fender (post 2000) has single coil ceramic pickups. They are not hum-cancelling. The only hum canceling pickups in this test are DiMarzio Model J and Nordstrand NJ4SE.

Yes, the stock SX pups can be made to sound great, but Jasaman had to hold back on the E string to feather it and not make it go into SX effect for that track. He played it clean. . . it took some effort. It is particularly apparent when slapping.

 

[chunger]

I grabbed #6 from the studio after mixing down samples Friday night because I wasn't happy with a couple of details on it. When I touched up the nut, I went too low and induced string buzz on open strings. . . so, I made a new nut for it. Also, I thought I could get the setup a little better than I had it. I hadn't had time to really sit with #6 because I finished it quickly while prepping for the big pickup shootout recording session.

Anyways, The first step was to make a new nut, so I took the old one off with my fret cutters and figured out a cool way to clean the nut slot. . . I'm just scraping off the glue residue. . . no real cutting.

The nut blank needed to be slimmed down and trimmed for length to fit this neck. I used a dremel cutoff wheel to make the length cut and some 220 and 320 sandpaper on a flat surface to thin down the blank until it fit snugly in the slot.

The new Stewmac nut files worked great. Here's the finished nut.

As I was tweaking with the setup. . . using a little more relief, my tuner went on the fritz and I overtuned the G string and it broke. . . DOH! It's just like flushing $30 down the toilet. I wasn't terribly fond of the black DR extra life strings to be honest (the cool blue ones sound a lot more open). But it's always a bummer breaking things and this bass did really look sexy with the black strings. I had actually thought about putting a 500K pot in the P pickup to brighten it up a bit, but it was clear after changing strings to the SS Dunlops that the pot change would not be necessary.

As the bass sits, it has a GFS P-bass pickup and the stock SX single coil bridge pickup. I debated putting in a Nordstrand NJ4SE in the bridge position tonight, but in the end, both parties interested in #6 have expressed budget concerns, so the stock SX pickup in the bridge position is the no-cost solution. With the shielding, in my experience, the single coil hum and noise is brought down to an acceptable level and we had isolated the "SX effect" to the neck position pickup, so all problems in this bass have been resolved, so for now, I'm leaving it like this. It plays really well now, and I think it's now ready to roll. I will wait another day or 2 for the strings to settle and see if the neck makes any shifts, but again, I set this one at .085" action at the 12th fret. . . +- .005" on the G and E string. . . the limiting factor again being the D string buzz. That seems to be the routine with these Dunlops.

 

[wideyes]

Great second round of sound clips! Thanks for doing slap comparisons - really bring to light the range of each pickup. Thoughts:

Fantastic Voyage:

Stock pups: sounded amazing! By far my favorite slap tone in the roundup. They were slightly scooped, but clear, full and delicious. It's a shame they're so temperamental, because I think they have a winning slap tone.

NJ4: I was actually unimpressed They lacked bite and presence, and the buttery low end just didn't translate that well to slap. Too bad.

NJ4SE: I liked a little better, although no rave review either. Lots of high-mids. Lacking in low-end.

Model J: Sounded very aggressive. I think this would go well with a hard rock slap style. I think it might be a bit overbearing for a more pure funk or pop application.

NP4: a bit thin and grindy for me. The overwound sounded better, with more bottom. Overall, not as successful a slap tone IMO. Maybe it's just the p-bass vs. j-bass thing.

MIM: very scooped! Not bad, although a little less depth than I'd like. A very clean slap tone.

Come on Come Over:

GFS: I actually liked the tone from these. Too bad they suffer from 'cheap pickup syndrome', which to me just adds a general lo-fi-ness to the signal. Otherwise, good Jaco tone.

NJ4SE: meh.

Model J: a little too muffled to get the effect. I don't think this pickup has the highs needed for a true jazz bridge tone.

MIM: the clear winner for me! Very open tone, smoother than the GFS, has space and clarity. The closest, in my mind, to Jaco.

I also thought the overwind did a better job for the reggae-ish track.

After digesting the sound clips so far, here are my thoughts:

The stock SX pups have a specific EQ focus which comes through whether fingerpicking or slapping. They are forward and mid-heavy, yet have sufficient highs and lows to make them a good presence in the mix.

The NJ4s are smooth and sweet, but don't have as much in the ballsy department. I'd pick these for a bass that you want to sing or to provide melodic support with, not one you want to punch through.

The NJ4SEs have failed to capture my interest in any way. They are plain jane.

Model Js are very low and low-mid focused. They sound a bit muffled in the highs, but have a very phat presence and some compression. Very pre-EQ'd.

NP4 is very grindy and forward in the mix. Not as smooth or buttery, but not quite aggressive, either (although it could be). The overwind has more lows, but loses some clarity in the process. I maintain that a 5% overwind would be a very nice balance.

MIM sounds the thinnest to me, with less mids than the others. I think this gives it a more open sound, but I don't think it would be as suitable for styles tending towards rock. It's a very nice jazz bass, just like the name suggests.

GFS just sound cheap. Not 'bad', but cheap.

Loving the sound clips - thanks a BUNCH!!!

 

[selowitch]

Surprisingly, I like the MIM stock pups the best.

 

[Jim C]

Hey Chung
Maybe not the best repair but I have used epoxy to "fix" a nut I slotted too deep
That was in the late 70's and have no problem with the epoxy adhesion to the stock Fender nut to this day

 

[Billy K]

played number 5 I think, the black jazz.It was outstanding. love the push/pull knob in the number 1 position. The neck was smooth, fretted easilly no buzz anywhere up and down the neck.You do a nice fret dressing indeed. the sound was good. Nice thump thump thump. I gotta say you are a very good guitar tech or can I call you luthier chunger.It is amazing what alot love with skill mixed in with a inexpensive bass can produce.But you got the touch buddy.

 

[selowitch]

Chunger, it sure looks like the slots you form on the nut are sized quite precisely to match the gauge of each string. Do any mass-produced basses have that feature as they ship from the factory? How do you achieve this, and how do you keep from going too deep?

 

[chunger]

Chunger, it sure looks like the slots you form on the nut are sized quite precisely to match the gauge of each string. Do any mass-produced basses have that feature as they ship from the factory? How do you achieve this, and how do you keep from going too deep?

Please keep in mind, in relation to other techs and luthiers, I've made very few nuts, so my methods may not be best practices. . . they are what work for me right now and will probably evolve.

I've standardized on a spec string (Medium gauge Dunlop SS), so I know my strings are always going to be .045, .065, .085, .105. I went over to stewmac and purchased files that closely match.

.046, .065, .085, and a combo file .105 on one side, .120 on the other side. I think it ended up costing ~$67 for the 4 files. After I rough shape the nut and make my initial pencil marks, I do all of my cutting with the nut on the neck and the instrument strung up. I just loosen the string I'm working on and move it to the side when I'm filing the slot. This way, I can see how the string spacing is playing out while I still have time to make minute adjustments. Also, this allows me to check my nut depth often by re-stringing and fretting the 2nd fret. . . the string acts like a straight edge and you can see and feel the gap between the 1st fret and the bottom of the string. It is critical that there be enough of a gap to prevent buzzing on the open note, but not so much that your action is un-necessarily high. Some people use feeler gauges. At this point, I just check it a lot and use the force. When you get close, it's critical to check the depth every couple of swipes of the file because that's the time you can ruin a nut by cutting too deep, and if you're going for low action like I like to, it's important to get it pretty low.

Contrary to what some luthiers will say, I believe it is perfectly fine to have a machine do 90% + of the work involved in making a nut especially if it's a run of identical instruments. You know your neck width, string pacing, and fret height . . . just have your machine cut or mold the slots a little bit on the high side so someone can come in and establish final depth with a few stroke of the nut file . . . 5-10 minutes. . . done. But, since the SX is a "fender type" neck, but has flat instead of radiused nut slot, there isn't a generic slotted nut I can use. So, I have to do the extra work and make the nut from a blank. And now, with the premium pickups, I'm in a bit of a pricing crisis, so I'm basically giving custom nuts away. . . almost. Maybe I'm just slow, but it takes a lot of time for me to get it right at this point. Well, I'm only replacing nuts on the ones that are messed up from the factory, but the ones I put in are way superior to the stock SX units. Wouldn't hurt for them to just spec a slightly harder plastic.

 

[chunger]

Here's a crazy idea I just thought up. . . It seems that within the next 2-3 instruments, I will have reached a sort of "saturation point" with my immediate friends. Jasaman will have 1 or 2 instruments on hand available for students, and I'll just be chugging along finishing out this batch that I've got on hand.

I'm thinking about doing a "Chungified" SX pass-around. I think there would be lots of benefits. I truly believe that the value of these instruments cannot be known until you get hands-on no matter how many pictures I take. I also don't want to exist in a vacuum where friends just goes around hi-fiving each other all the time. Critical feedback is important to my learning process. I also want to know how these flexy flier non-reinforced necks react to climate changes. Does someone here have a Sadowsky or Fender CS? I'm interested in hearing how the SX plays next to a true premium bass. . . that is actually custom handmade

Some folks I'd be specifically interested in getting evaluative feedback from are:

1. bass instructors
2. active recording and gigging pro's
3. thread contributors
4. luthiers

I haven't figured out all the logistics yet, but I have a really excellent lake placid blue SX jazz bass that came to me "pre-dinged" that I can build up to my current spec. As such, it would not be a problem for this instrument to actually get used and gigged in the real world. We would establish a sequence of individuals (long-standing forum members with feedback ratings) and a time-frame for the pass-along. I'd send it to the first person, who would forward it to the next person in the chain taking a paypal deposit from each "passee" refunding it upon receipt by the next person.

Anyways, I started on #8 today (the jaguar) and am waiting for some glue to dry. #9 would be the "pass-along" bass if there is interest. Please let me know if you think a respected forum member who is not aware of this thread would be a good candidate to solicit an evaluation from. I'd be interested in contacting them.

Ultimately, I'd love to get in contact with some more bass instructors to get these basses into the hands of the original target group.

 

[chunger]

Starting up on #8 today

There were some questions last time about what I was doing to guide the drill, so I thought I'd try to take some more pictures this time of the operation. Here's the setup.

And a closeup of the hole I'm enlarging through the guide.

Setting depth of my holes with blue tape on the drill bit

And inserts are in and neck pocket is shimmed

#8 has some crazy alignment problems. I think I'm going to crank the neck over to the left and then scoot the bridge to the right. I figure that rear pickup route isn't going to change, so I'd better work with it. . . then, I'll re-align the pickguard and control plate so the neck position pickup lines up. That's the plan anyways.

And, the plan requires me to plug all the holes in the entire body. . . almost.

And. . . while that stuff is drying, I decided to pre-fab the wiring harness for Jasaman's #3. . . doing crazy series parallel switching on the individual Model J pickups as well as global series parallel. I sure hope this works. . . looks like a rat's nest in there. Anyways, this way, I can just swap the entire control plate to the new one and then transfer the control plate from #3 to one of the new builds.

Now if I can only get ahold of the guy, I can fix his bass

 

[chunger]

Some research into sub $600 basses has me happy and a bit demoralized at the same time. I've been doing research because someone on forum is emailing me about options and I like to make the best recommendation. . . not merely sell a bass.

Brubaker Brute and G&L Tribute JB-2 and SB-2 are right in there price-wise. If they have manufacturing down good enough for a .090" action out of the box (possible), there's hardly any point to what I'm doing from a cost perspective in light of the recent price creepage. I've been doing a few build sheets and invoices for instruments completed.

I guess it all hinges on the fretwork (machine or human). I know the Lakland Skylines should set up awesome out of the box as they are all PLEK'd now but the street price is also higher than $600.

I highly suspect that my current endeavor will be un-sustainable in the long run, but it's going to be a fun ride in the short term for the remaining builds, and I'll learn tons along the way. In order for it to actually work, I probably need to be the guy who can source a workable, painted neck and body for ~$60 directly from overseas.