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basses for newbies (SX batch build thread)
- Thread starter chunger
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A bridge I've been very pleased with on my SX is the Guitar Parts Resource Economy bridge. $19 plus shipping.
Yes, yes it does. Maybe one screw hole slightly off, but compared to what it could be, not a problem.
And of course, you won't be using screws on the north end of the bridge.
They did for me. I didn't think they did at first, but once I started actually screwing the screws in everything went in fine. Great bridge.
A bridge I've been very pleased with on my SX is the Guitar Parts Resource Economy bridge. $19 plus shipping.
Same here. I have that bridge on both my SX basses and the Jazz I'm currently building. It is a great bridge for not a lot of money!
I took a look at these bridges, and the thing that I didn't like mechanically was the slots on the bottom plate where the height adjustment hex screws hit.
The main problem I am trying to resolve when doing a bridge swap is to limit or eliminate side to side movement of the saddles under playing conditions. The Gotoh has rounded bottom channels cut into the plate so the hex screws are forced to the center of the channel by string pressure, and as a result, the saddles remain in position. The flat channels on these bridges do not look like they accomplish that. It looks like a case of someone copying another design, aesthetically, but not getting it right functionally. I'm quite sure a functional bridge can be made cheaper than the Gotoh, but at $32 for the Gotoh 201 from Warmoth, I'll play the extra $13 to be sure it fixes the problem I'm trying to resolve.
Granted, these bridges do have side strips along the outsides of the outer saddles holding all of the saddles together, but I'd rather have a solid lock-down on each saddle. A simple change in spec to a rounded channel would fix all of it.
The main problem I am trying to resolve when doing a bridge swap is to limit or eliminate side to side movement of the saddles under playing conditions. The Gotoh has rounded bottom channels cut into the plate so the hex screws are forced to the center of the channel by string pressure, and as a result, the saddles remain in position. The flat channels on these bridges do not look like they accomplish that. It looks like a case of someone copying another design, aesthetically, but not getting it right functionally. I'm quite sure a functional bridge can be made cheaper than the Gotoh, but at $32 for the Gotoh 201 from Warmoth, I'll play the extra $13 to be sure it fixes the problem I'm trying to resolve.
Granted, these bridges do have side strips along the outsides of the outer saddles holding all of the saddles together, but I'd rather have a solid lock-down on each saddle. A simple change in spec to a rounded channel would fix all of it.
I got this bridge for the very same reason: side movement. I don't have any to speak of. I can throw it back together and do a more detailed examination of this, but I'm fairly confident that it doesn't. For the price, it's incredible. I suggested it for a cheap option since I knew you (as well as others) were on a budget.
I have that economy high mass bridge from BPR fitted on my SX P bass and a Gotoh 201 on my SX J bass. IMHO the Gotoh 201's screw holes line up better with the existing holes. The economy bridge will fit as well but I'd recommend starting on both the out most screws, then the middle, n finally the other 2.
Sound wise, hardly any discernible difference on either one but sustain on both is definitely an improvement from the stock bridge.
Intonation's a breeze compared to the stock for both but I'd say the Gotoh is slightly better.
Playability, hell yeah! Both basses sing better now and the notes sound more pronounced. No sideways movement on either bridges, and no rattling. Gives me more confidence when digging in or slapping. I give the Gotoh slightly more points over the economy bridge by just about 0.5 points out of 10 maybe?
The economy bridge seems thicker and has more mass than the Gotoh tho'. However, the finishing on the Gotoh is much better and definitely has more aesthetic appeal.
I'd say go for the Gotoh if the $13 doesn't make much of a difference on your budget and you want peace of mind from a branded product. Otherwise, you can at least try one of the economy bridge and gauge yourself the difference.
That's my 5 cents for the day
Sound wise, hardly any discernible difference on either one but sustain on both is definitely an improvement from the stock bridge.
Intonation's a breeze compared to the stock for both but I'd say the Gotoh is slightly better.
Playability, hell yeah! Both basses sing better now and the notes sound more pronounced. No sideways movement on either bridges, and no rattling. Gives me more confidence when digging in or slapping. I give the Gotoh slightly more points over the economy bridge by just about 0.5 points out of 10 maybe?
The economy bridge seems thicker and has more mass than the Gotoh tho'. However, the finishing on the Gotoh is much better and definitely has more aesthetic appeal.
I'd say go for the Gotoh if the $13 doesn't make much of a difference on your budget and you want peace of mind from a branded product. Otherwise, you can at least try one of the economy bridge and gauge yourself the difference.
That's my 5 cents for the day
Jasaman came by again tonight to do a few things. . . I have #3 back on the bench, so I figured I'd take a few shots of the Gotoh bridge since we're talking bridges. I am re-using the stock SX saddles because I could not get the Gotoh ones to go low enough on #3 without filing or grinding down all of the saddles on the bottom to give screw clearance.
the metal finish and chrome on the Gotoh unit is as mentioned in a previous post superb. I hope my pictures reveal clearly the rounded slots in which the saddle adjustment screws sit.
#3 back on the bench. . . I decided to hold onto it for a while to really get the action good. I think we've mucked with it way too much. . . it's had 4 pickups changes, a total electronics swap, a bridge swap, and a new nut made all after it was supposedly "finished".
I sat with it again tonight and I've really got the action dialed. #3 has a tendency to settle in a bit a few days after setup though so I'm going to play it for a while and make sure it's stabilized before handing it back to Jasaman. It's currently set really really fast E .080", A .077", D .075", G .072" . . . the playability is phenomenal. . . it isn't quite as buttery as #6 is, but it's darn close now. We'll see how it settles in.
This is the first time I've had a chance to get fingers on the DiMarzio Model J's as well as the push/pull-push/pull-push/pull pot configuration.
I think Jasaman's going to give a report on that in a bit because he's had some seat time with this bass, but to my ear, the pallet of available tones is really impressive. Singling out the pickups in parallel, you'd think some of the sounds would be unusable, but once you start blending the sounds together and playing with them, you find a wide range of really useful sounds right at your fingertips. . . and they come in a way that totally alters the response characteristics of the bass. . . sortof like the difference between changing/moving a microphone in recording as opposed to applying an EQ. A few examples. . . we've really grown to love the sound of jazz pickups in series mode. On this bass, we can pull up the tone pot to put the bass in series mode. With the pots down down up, both pups are individually in series, and they are then both connected in series through the position 1 pot. This give a really bottom-heavy ballsey sound, but, in the room or in the song, you might find yourself getting a bit buried and want a bit more cut. . . grab the middle or position 2 pot and pull it up to put the bridge pup in parallel. . . you still retain the global series characteristic, but kick in a good bit of high frequency cut. . . or, put the bridge pup back in series and pull up the position 1 pot to put the neck pickup in parallel, and you get a really snarly, aggressive high-mid forward sound. With some of these settings, the location along the string that you're plucking on really makes dramatic changes in the tone.
Anyways, I've only spent a few minutes on the thing and Jasaman has hours on it, and I'm sure he can explain some of his favorite settings and applications better.
One observation is while the treble response was increased by switching over to the 500K pots, I feel in some ways, it may have accentuated them in a not-so-pleasant way. Fret noise frequencies are much more pronounced. I also think the really cool tone knob I had going on may have been a bit compromised by the change to 500K. I think I'm going to change the tone pot back to 250K and see how that effects the overall balance of things. The DiMarzios were my 2nd favorite pickup in the testing we did. Getting them under my fingers is really good. The bass really pushes out some impressive, authoritative bottom end. . . no question there, particularly with the global series option, this bass hits you in the gut and has a really easy way of giving you really usable sounds. I wonder about the NJ4SE's though for it's midrange and treble articulation. A/B'ing against #9 will be really helpful. If Jasaman decides to make a switch again, I'll request a custom pickup from Nordstrand that gives me separate wires for the 2 coils on the split humbuckers so I can retain the same wiring harness and tonal options.
Concerning #4 and the most recent custom P-bass pickup from Nordstrand, Jasaman thinks it is really really dialed. I suspected it was a truly phenomenal pickup we've arrived at, but wanted confirmation. Jasaman has had a chance this week to sit with #7 that has the stock NP4 onboard and reports that bass sounds and plays great, but when he picked up #4 today, he was blown away. I personally am not as into the hollow/grindy type of sound, and this new pickup takes a lot of that way and replaces it with big, saucy bottom. With the stock NP4, I usually play with a hair of treble rolled off on the tone knob, but I play this new pickup wide open. I talked with Jasaman about my concern. . .what if I find myself in a situation where I need just a bit more cut. . . I won't have it at my fingertips. He thinks this new pickup cuts just fine and you would never need more. I guess the best tone knob is the one you never have to use?
This thing sounds just right going in flat and you kindof never feel the urge to tweak because there's such a broad range of sounds available from how you pluck the strings and the bass just responds to you. Jasaman says don't touch that thing or make any additional changes. . . it's really really dialed. Some basses make you want to tweak. . . this one makes you just want to play.
Another question I raised was the issue of the known nature of the stock NP4 vs. a custom "chunger" configuration. . . which one gives more value to the end user? Is it worth the slight extra cost and lead time to roll with this pickup as standard? What about the P/J's we have coming up in the queue? How would this pickup respond when paired with the bridge NJ4SE? How long can chunger go randomly buying experimental, expensive pickups before summer hits and he goes broke?
At any rate, this is why #4 went home with Jasaman so he can compare it against #7 in the real world and verify that this pickup does indeed have enough cut to be my new all-purpose p-bass standard pickup.
Another reason Jasaman came by today was one of his favorite students Wille who is in his 70's, does not have much money, and deserves a better playing bass. Jasaman came by my place to drop off Willies bass.
He has a MIM p-bass that is horribly set up. . . what? a horribly set up Fender off the rack at a retail music store? Inconceivable!
Ok . . . to be honest after reading the official Fender setup guide in the FAQ's of this forum, I have NEVER seen an off the rack fender set up to those specs (there own specs BTW). . . and I would guess 90% of the off-the-rack Fenders do not have good enough fretwork out of the box to take that low of a setup and remain playable. SX's are actually generally worse, but I'll stop complaining now. . .
This job will have to be pro bono, so I'm going to take the most direct approach possible. . . the plan of attack is to level and crown the fretboard, leave the stock electronics intact as the CTS pots are good and wiring/soldering on the MIM's generally quite good. Fender at least makes some effort to shield the bass and by nature, the humbucking p-bass is quieter than the single coil jazz basses to begin with. I might switch out the tone cap to Sprague because the part is so cheap. . . and, I'll slap on a set of my standard Dunlop strings. That should pull this mis-behaving p-bass in line and give Willie something really nice to play and continue learning on.
the metal finish and chrome on the Gotoh unit is as mentioned in a previous post superb. I hope my pictures reveal clearly the rounded slots in which the saddle adjustment screws sit.
#3 back on the bench. . . I decided to hold onto it for a while to really get the action good. I think we've mucked with it way too much. . . it's had 4 pickups changes, a total electronics swap, a bridge swap, and a new nut made all after it was supposedly "finished".
I sat with it again tonight and I've really got the action dialed. #3 has a tendency to settle in a bit a few days after setup though so I'm going to play it for a while and make sure it's stabilized before handing it back to Jasaman. It's currently set really really fast E .080", A .077", D .075", G .072" . . . the playability is phenomenal. . . it isn't quite as buttery as #6 is, but it's darn close now. We'll see how it settles in.
This is the first time I've had a chance to get fingers on the DiMarzio Model J's as well as the push/pull-push/pull-push/pull pot configuration.
I think Jasaman's going to give a report on that in a bit because he's had some seat time with this bass, but to my ear, the pallet of available tones is really impressive. Singling out the pickups in parallel, you'd think some of the sounds would be unusable, but once you start blending the sounds together and playing with them, you find a wide range of really useful sounds right at your fingertips. . . and they come in a way that totally alters the response characteristics of the bass. . . sortof like the difference between changing/moving a microphone in recording as opposed to applying an EQ. A few examples. . . we've really grown to love the sound of jazz pickups in series mode. On this bass, we can pull up the tone pot to put the bass in series mode. With the pots down down up, both pups are individually in series, and they are then both connected in series through the position 1 pot. This give a really bottom-heavy ballsey sound, but, in the room or in the song, you might find yourself getting a bit buried and want a bit more cut. . . grab the middle or position 2 pot and pull it up to put the bridge pup in parallel. . . you still retain the global series characteristic, but kick in a good bit of high frequency cut. . . or, put the bridge pup back in series and pull up the position 1 pot to put the neck pickup in parallel, and you get a really snarly, aggressive high-mid forward sound. With some of these settings, the location along the string that you're plucking on really makes dramatic changes in the tone.
Anyways, I've only spent a few minutes on the thing and Jasaman has hours on it, and I'm sure he can explain some of his favorite settings and applications better.
One observation is while the treble response was increased by switching over to the 500K pots, I feel in some ways, it may have accentuated them in a not-so-pleasant way. Fret noise frequencies are much more pronounced. I also think the really cool tone knob I had going on may have been a bit compromised by the change to 500K. I think I'm going to change the tone pot back to 250K and see how that effects the overall balance of things. The DiMarzios were my 2nd favorite pickup in the testing we did. Getting them under my fingers is really good. The bass really pushes out some impressive, authoritative bottom end. . . no question there, particularly with the global series option, this bass hits you in the gut and has a really easy way of giving you really usable sounds. I wonder about the NJ4SE's though for it's midrange and treble articulation. A/B'ing against #9 will be really helpful. If Jasaman decides to make a switch again, I'll request a custom pickup from Nordstrand that gives me separate wires for the 2 coils on the split humbuckers so I can retain the same wiring harness and tonal options.
Concerning #4 and the most recent custom P-bass pickup from Nordstrand, Jasaman thinks it is really really dialed. I suspected it was a truly phenomenal pickup we've arrived at, but wanted confirmation. Jasaman has had a chance this week to sit with #7 that has the stock NP4 onboard and reports that bass sounds and plays great, but when he picked up #4 today, he was blown away. I personally am not as into the hollow/grindy type of sound, and this new pickup takes a lot of that way and replaces it with big, saucy bottom. With the stock NP4, I usually play with a hair of treble rolled off on the tone knob, but I play this new pickup wide open. I talked with Jasaman about my concern. . .what if I find myself in a situation where I need just a bit more cut. . . I won't have it at my fingertips. He thinks this new pickup cuts just fine and you would never need more. I guess the best tone knob is the one you never have to use?
This thing sounds just right going in flat and you kindof never feel the urge to tweak because there's such a broad range of sounds available from how you pluck the strings and the bass just responds to you. Jasaman says don't touch that thing or make any additional changes. . . it's really really dialed. Some basses make you want to tweak. . . this one makes you just want to play.Another question I raised was the issue of the known nature of the stock NP4 vs. a custom "chunger" configuration. . . which one gives more value to the end user? Is it worth the slight extra cost and lead time to roll with this pickup as standard? What about the P/J's we have coming up in the queue? How would this pickup respond when paired with the bridge NJ4SE? How long can chunger go randomly buying experimental, expensive pickups before summer hits and he goes broke?
At any rate, this is why #4 went home with Jasaman so he can compare it against #7 in the real world and verify that this pickup does indeed have enough cut to be my new all-purpose p-bass standard pickup.
Another reason Jasaman came by today was one of his favorite students Wille who is in his 70's, does not have much money, and deserves a better playing bass. Jasaman came by my place to drop off Willies bass.
He has a MIM p-bass that is horribly set up. . . what? a horribly set up Fender off the rack at a retail music store? Inconceivable!
Ok . . . to be honest after reading the official Fender setup guide in the FAQ's of this forum, I have NEVER seen an off the rack fender set up to those specs (there own specs BTW). . . and I would guess 90% of the off-the-rack Fenders do not have good enough fretwork out of the box to take that low of a setup and remain playable. SX's are actually generally worse, but I'll stop complaining now. . .
This job will have to be pro bono, so I'm going to take the most direct approach possible. . . the plan of attack is to level and crown the fretboard, leave the stock electronics intact as the CTS pots are good and wiring/soldering on the MIM's generally quite good. Fender at least makes some effort to shield the bass and by nature, the humbucking p-bass is quieter than the single coil jazz basses to begin with. I might switch out the tone cap to Sprague because the part is so cheap. . . and, I'll slap on a set of my standard Dunlop strings. That should pull this mis-behaving p-bass in line and give Willie something really nice to play and continue learning on.
Chunger, thanks for giving so much to our bass-playing brethren. You're a diamond in the rough!
Re: the economy high mass bridge from BPR, it did not fit the screw holes on my SX shortie. At all. It was off just enough to seem deliberately off. The Gotoh 201, on the other hand, fit *perfectly* and really was a step up IMO from stock. I think it's a clear winner!
Re: the economy high mass bridge from BPR, it did not fit the screw holes on my SX shortie. At all. It was off just enough to seem deliberately off. The Gotoh 201, on the other hand, fit *perfectly* and really was a step up IMO from stock. I think it's a clear winner!
I wish I were in the right area of the world or financial standings to do things like this for the community. :-\
Great stuff Chunger, really great job here...
Only thing that would take it over the top....
Is to CitrusStrip that Orange Tint off those Finger boards. I've owned a couple SX's and was never a fan of the tinting on the necks.
But Seriously Great work here.
Only thing that would take it over the top....
Is to CitrusStrip that Orange Tint off those Finger boards.
I've owned a couple SX's and was never a fan of the tinting on the necks. But Seriously Great work here.
Hey, Chunger, great thread as many others have said! Where could I find a schematic for those dual-layer series-parallel setup you have described?
Great stuff Chunger, really great job here...
Only thing that would take it over the top....
Is to CitrusStrip that Orange Tint off those Finger boards.
But Seriously Great work here.
Yeah. . . I know. It would look better without the orange, but there are a couple of concerns on my end. . .
1. I it takes a good chunk of time to do. . . in reading here, i don't think it's unreasonable to assume ~6 hours per neck? Would I not be better off just buying new necks at that point that are built better?
2. I'm not set up to spray and do finish work here. The #1 job of the finish is still to protect the instrument. I'm experiencing more neck fluctuation with these builds than I would like as it is. I'm used to 3 piece laminated necks with graphite reinforcement (don't move much seasonally). If the finish mitigates the humidity shifts on any level, I'm all for leaving it on. . .or, if I take it off, I have to replace it with something.
Anyways. . . the only other operation that takes that long on these builds is the fret leveling. I'm sure it would generate a lot of buzz if I stripped the necks because the basses would look cooler, but I don't think people would be able to stomach the cost increase.
Preliminary report for Jasaman tonight via text message:
"I played the hell out of #4 tonight! It sounded so amazing and played like a dream. Don't change a thing on that bass! It was a good day for Chunger Bass Builds. I have lots to report!"
So, I take it the new pickup is working out pretty nicely. Sound clips will have to be forthcoming to verify. . . after that, I think I'll need to order up a batch of custom "Chungified" Nordies for the remaining P-builds. And, I'm looking forward to the report!
In other news, #5 came back from it's test drive today from a student. . . he has apparently purchased an off-the-rack Ibanez instead
and complains at this point that the new Ibanez does not set up with low action like his Zon. 
Oh well, I tried. He said the action on #5 was too high. I didn't know he was going for super-low-rider status, so just for kicks and giggles, I set up #5 tonight at .070" to see how it handles. playable at a light touch. . . certainly a little too touchy for me to use in the studio but a fun experiment. . . back up to .080 and it's a happy bass. . . the neck had settled and needed ~1/8 turn. I think it's stabilized now. Higher tension strings than these Dunlops would be needed to run it low. Since I've been in the studio, I've been creeping my actions higher. It's all very interesting. Well, #5 is back on the market.
When you say you set a bass "at .070" or "at .080", do you intend inch measurements at the 12th fret?
In other news, #5 came back from it's test drive today from a student. . . he has apparently purchased an off-the-rack Ibanez instead
Nothing nags at me more than me going out of my way to put effort towards helping someone for them to just make a stupid decision. Live and learn...I hope.
Yeah, inch measurement at the 12th fret. . . NOTE: the is without a capo on the 1st fret like Sadowsky likes to do. . .although I understand him wanting to take the nut out of the equation for that measurement. It looks like factory Laklands ship at 5/64" - 5.5/64" ( .078125" - .0859"). I've been ending up in a very similar place as far as setups go. . . a touch higher maybe but the Dunlops are a low tension string. They do sound and feel amazing though so I'm willing to make a slight action sacrifice for the tone gain.
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