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BASSISTS AND ETHNICITY
- Thread starter jmcdan3
- Start date
That is a nice theory; it just isn't historically accurate.
The folks who started Spirituals and the Blues were out working in the fields, but jazz musicians have always tended to be well educated, and often from middle and upper middle class backgrounds. That is why they were able to get the education they needed to play the complex musis they played. Pick any twenty major jazz musicians, most will be musically literate with some notable exceptions like Charlie Christian. Many, like Cab Calloway and Miles Davis came from professional families and benefitted from extensive and intensive private lessons when they were very young, and they had parents that could afford to buy them instruments.
Well Im not really into alot of music besides Rock so I guess Ill just use that as an example of why people think race plays a role in the natural ability of a bassist.
Blues has the ability to make you sway back in forth in your seat like crazy, because it is simple and full of emotion. It is simple because the early blues players could not afford to have extensive lessons, couldnt dedicate ALL of their time to music usually because they were poor, and other reasons. This, to me, is what made the blues the way it is, you were poor, sometimes lonely and sad, music was your escape and your canvas to convey your emotion on, and you were usually black.
The Blues was played and listened to by blacks almost exclusively and it stayed that way for a decent amount of time into the 20th century in the United States. Black music was on black labels, white music on white labels, same with juke boxes and radio stations. A large part of this is because during the post WWI Era (and even later) The US was experiencing a Hyper Nationalist movement in the South and Midwest, the American Ideal was white anglo saxon, nothing else. This idea of white supremecy that had moved throughout the south and midwest and now into other areas(this was always present in the south obviously) and you pass this school of thought down to your posterity, that is how racism survives. If you break the chain a generation or two white supremecy will take an enourmous blow, that is why black music was not played on white playlists, labels, etc. If the youth begins listening to the same music, absorb some of their culture, they realise they arent so different and question the lies fed to them by their elders.
Since the music in black culture is traditionally rythmic and was not played for whites, it took some time for whites to develop this groove. Now cut to the time of the Rolling Stones and other artists in England, they arent cut off from this music like those in the US and identify with the pains of the Blues due to the social unrest of the era. Rock evolves with the help of the blues and black music, now you have playeslike Rex Brown for example that groove their ass off, which i the traditional ideal for a bass player, the ability to groove. Black players grew up with the blues, funk, and other forms of music that werent listened to by whites for some time, but after becoming acceptable whites began to be able to groove because rock is the dominant music for alot of whites, which was influenced like crazy by black music.
This is all about rock, how this kind of thing evolved in other forms of music I cant say. Sorry for the length and sorry if it seems incohesive at points and over simplified, its late ha ha. Yeah, Im a nerdy History Major, so what?!
Blues has the ability to make you sway back in forth in your seat like crazy, because it is simple and full of emotion. It is simple because the early blues players could not afford to have extensive lessons, couldnt dedicate ALL of their time to music usually because they were poor, and other reasons. This, to me, is what made the blues the way it is, you were poor, sometimes lonely and sad, music was your escape and your canvas to convey your emotion on, and you were usually black.
The Blues was played and listened to by blacks almost exclusively and it stayed that way for a decent amount of time into the 20th century in the United States. Black music was on black labels, white music on white labels, same with juke boxes and radio stations. A large part of this is because during the post WWI Era (and even later) The US was experiencing a Hyper Nationalist movement in the South and Midwest, the American Ideal was white anglo saxon, nothing else. This idea of white supremecy that had moved throughout the south and midwest and now into other areas(this was always present in the south obviously) and you pass this school of thought down to your posterity, that is how racism survives. If you break the chain a generation or two white supremecy will take an enourmous blow, that is why black music was not played on white playlists, labels, etc. If the youth begins listening to the same music, absorb some of their culture, they realise they arent so different and question the lies fed to them by their elders.
Since the music in black culture is traditionally rythmic and was not played for whites, it took some time for whites to develop this groove. Now cut to the time of the Rolling Stones and other artists in England, they arent cut off from this music like those in the US and identify with the pains of the Blues due to the social unrest of the era. Rock evolves with the help of the blues and black music, now you have playeslike Rex Brown for example that groove their ass off, which i the traditional ideal for a bass player, the ability to groove. Black players grew up with the blues, funk, and other forms of music that werent listened to by whites for some time, but after becoming acceptable whites began to be able to groove because rock is the dominant music for alot of whites, which was influenced like crazy by black music.
This is all about rock, how this kind of thing evolved in other forms of music I cant say. Sorry for the length and sorry if it seems incohesive at points and over simplified, its late ha ha. Yeah, Im a nerdy History Major, so what?!
That is a nice theory; it just isn't historically accurate.
Thank you for the correction! Didn't know actually
What you guys IMHO are missing is this. While cultural difference can give advantages to some, in the end the ONLY thing that really matters is yourself. If YOU work hard then there is no reason to think you can't accomplish a black (or any color) man's prowess.
You can generalize all you want, whip out as many examples to show the cultural differences and how they affect natural talent for groove, at the end of the day those are nothing but reasons the weak willed give themselves to feel better.
You can generalize all you want, whip out as many examples to show the cultural differences and how they affect natural talent for groove, at the end of the day those are nothing but reasons the weak willed give themselves to feel better.
25 years ago I was touring Israel, and was invited to a religious band playing somewhere. I showed up and there were tons of hasidic guys (black hats, the works) in attendence as well as making up the band. Funny enough, the bass player was Afro-Israeli, in the full hasidic style, with a really good groove.
Well, it could only be if the "concept of groove and feel" were genetic. Somehow I doubt that's what you're suggesting.
Now, if you said "It is not at all surprising that the concept of groove and feel would be a bit stronger in someone who grew up immersed in African culture" then asking "How could this be and why?" might elicit some thought provoking discussion.
So, let me get this straight, "African Americans tend to be more rythmic and groove oriented' is a stereotype??? Somebody PLEASE humor me and explain how, because no one here actually has yet.
Easier done than said.
It all depends on your perception of the term - most people think of stereotypes as gross, negative overgeneralizations about a group. But just as many exist that are positive. Stereotypes are at least perceptually true for at least part of a given group. And any perceived or observed attribute of some members of a group can technically be a stereotype.
So, what's the trouble, again?
Well Im not really into alot of music besides Rock so I guess Ill just use that as an example of why people think race plays a role in the natural ability of a bassist.
Blues has the ability to make you sway back in forth in your seat like crazy, because it is simple and full of emotion. It is simple because the early blues players could not afford to have extensive lessons, couldnt dedicate ALL of their time to music usually because they were poor, and other reasons. This, to me, is what made the blues the way it is, you were poor, sometimes lonely and sad, music was your escape and your canvas to convey your emotion on, and you were usually black.
The Blues was played and listened to by blacks almost exclusively and it stayed that way for a decent amount of time into the 20th century in the United States. Black music was on black labels, white music on white labels, same with juke boxes and radio stations. A large part of this is because during the post WWI Era (and even later) The US was experiencing a Hyper Nationalist movement in the South and Midwest, the American Ideal was white anglo saxon, nothing else. This idea of white supremecy that had moved throughout the south and midwest and now into other areas(this was always present in the south obviously) and you pass this school of thought down to your posterity, that is how racism survives. If you break the chain a generation or two white supremecy will take an enourmous blow, that is why black music was not played on white playlists, labels, etc. If the youth begins listening to the same music, absorb some of their culture, they realise they arent so different and question the lies fed to them by their elders.
Since the music in black culture is traditionally rythmic and was not played for whites, it took some time for whites to develop this groove. Now cut to the time of the Rolling Stones and other artists in England, they arent cut off from this music like those in the US and identify with the pains of the Blues due to the social unrest of the era. Rock evolves with the help of the blues and black music, now you have playeslike Rex Brown for example that groove their ass off, which i the traditional ideal for a bass player, the ability to groove. Black players grew up with the blues, funk, and other forms of music that werent listened to by whites for some time, but after becoming acceptable whites began to be able to groove because rock is the dominant music for alot of whites, which was influenced like crazy by black music.
This is all about rock, how this kind of thing evolved in other forms of music I cant say. Sorry for the length and sorry if it seems incohesive at points and over simplified, its late ha ha. Yeah, Im a nerdy History Major, so what?!
+ 1
Easier done than said.
It all depends on your perception of the term - most people think of stereotypes as gross, negative overgeneralizations about a group. But just as many exist that are positive. Stereotypes are at least perceptually true for at least part of a given group. And any perceived or observed attribute of some members of a group can technically be a stereotype.
So, what's the trouble, again?
Members of a group? Trouble
True for at least part of a group? or MOST of? Trouble
perceived or observed? by whom? trouble
attribute of SOME members? what members would those be? Trouble
"Positive stereotype" how so? it's an oxymoron, all stereotypes are harmful, no matter how good they sound Trouble
No offense but you gotta do better than a Websters definition when explaining why what I've grown up as being for the most part not only true but widely accepted, despite a few exeptions down the line. If it makes on feel better to say it's just "cultural" still only proves the point more, does African American culture or cultural history then only be regarded as stereotypical simply because ther are a few exceptions? I think not.
I know we disagree about the usage of the word "stereotype", and believe me, I'm fully aware of its negative implications - I've experienced racism firsthand as a Chicano from the east side of San Jose, California. That's not my point however.
Human beings naturally approach the world through the use of heuristics. Stereotypes are used by ALL human beings to understand the world around them. It's a starting point. Not the best one by any means, but it's a natural consequence of how human beings think about and organize the world, and it's easy to use. Easy to a fault, in fact. But it's not to be dismissed as purely detrimental, because then you're dismissing how you initially developed your sense of the entire world.
I've spent a great deal of time in college in sociology and political psychology, if you're curious about how I understand the word "stereotype".
Lo end PUNCH said:
I think you're off-base here. You're mixing up concepts. Stereotypes are perceptions and observations. They are based on perceived and observed truths - not to be confused with other concepts. I never said anything about culture or history themselves being mere stereotypes, because that wouldn't make any sense.
First of all I'm not mixing up concepts, I mentioned culture because it's been talked about here so much out of proper context. Having rythm and groove IS part of AA culture, they're not concepts, it goes back to the beginning of time and the history of our ancestry, to add the tag "concept" only belittles this culture and attempts to de-athenticate it, stereotype can then easily be applied, I also as black man have been witness to this all my life. I grew up listeneing to EVERYTHING from James Brown to Three Dog Night to Miles Davis, I watched Hee Haw and Lawrence Welk with my Grandmother! But the groove, the rythm, I didnt learn that, it was there since my childhood and as far back as I can remember, It's who I am, my family, my people, my history...not concepts, understand that I know what a stereotype is and what a concept is. please dont assume that no one else here is educated(Hopefully you're not
). I dont think the OP meant anything harmful by what he has learned. It is what it is, and it holds an astounding amount of truth, nothing a simple amount of cultural research wont prove.
Much of this thread has attacked the idea from a perspective of biology and race; there were arguments about whether or not rhythm and groove were biologically grounded (a very different premise than the cultural argument). I was merely debating with you on the issue of what a stereotype is, based on where much of this thread had gone earlier. Admittedly, I haven't jumped into this thread for a while (not since my long rants a few pages back), so forgive me if I seem a bit out-of-place.
I think we both misunderstood what approaches we were coming from in this debate. Believe me, I'm all for the cultural argument - I've argued for it before! It embeds certain features of music into us from a young age; what we grow up with has a significant effect on the rest of our lives.
I think we're on the same page - if not the same chapter, at least.
I think we both misunderstood what approaches we were coming from in this debate. Believe me, I'm all for the cultural argument - I've argued for it before! It embeds certain features of music into us from a young age; what we grow up with has a significant effect on the rest of our lives.
I think we're on the same page - if not the same chapter, at least.
One last note - I should clarify that I don't think "rhythm and groove" in general are exclusive to black culture, but in the sense of the "rhythm and groove" that R&B, Jazz, and other genres of AA cultural origin offer, they certainly are a distinct feature of the music in that culture. Also, I don't think that only blacks can groove like that - but you'd certainly need to immerse yourself in the culture to play like that and be good at it.
Not at all offended, just dont understand why so many were. No question that anyone who wants to obtain a great sense of rythm and groove can easily learn to do so. I just didnt see the OP being a racist, to me his post didnt comply with that.
ehh, I'd say that generally speaking the Black guys dance better than white guys so they might feel the groove easier and have more ability to express what they feel at the moment within music.
My 2 cents
My 2 cents
13 pages and you guys haven't gotten to the truth yet.... I was trained to jump on grenades for the greater good, .... here goes...
Preface: I'm totally colorblind or practice that daily, but my "brutha" side is what I lean on on stage.
Why, becuase of the color of my skin? Becuase I was born rich, or poor. Naw. Come on. Think about your musical upbringing, your culture that you were born into. ( not where you came from , thats different, as you'll see )
I was raised by immigrants, white european immigrants. The music THEY listened to was standard 4/4 time or waltzes. My dad liked country music. Immigrant redneck that he was, and mom dug Tom Jones.
In the same 'hood I grew up in ( they called it the Jewish ghetto, although Ty and I werent Jewish! ), a sax player named Tyrone grew up around the block.
Now, the trouble with white immigrants, unfortunately, is they're racist generally. Partially because they aint never seen a black person before, part, of course is the simplistic reductionism of racism ( when we cannot think or feel for ourselves, we rely on reductionism to make judgement for us), and lastly, I think "fitting" in with their Anglo workmates in a new country by "hating" the same folks they did.
Long story short, I had to lie to my dad about going to Ty's house and jammin'.
Ty's record collection ( we both had like 5 records! ) , and the stuff his mom played was COMPLETLEY different than what you heard in our house.
And that music wasnt all four four time. It had "funny" accents. Odd stops, and a much more flowing and alive groove.
Tyrone grew up with a much more palpable feeling of "groove" or pulse in the music his parents and he listened to. Even though we both grew up in "musical" households.
Same would apply to a Brazilian and a Swede.
Simple answer, and I'll put it in more eloquent terms than those "ignorant terms of color" , most peps of european descent were not exposed to more complex melodies and rhythms of other lands, and in particular as it applies to the US population, African rhythms and melodies.
To be a great bass player, you have to live on the " universal plane", that's well above your roots. The "universal plane" is the place where ALL OF OUR ROOTS mingle.
Because, you have to trust me on this one folks, the souls of our ancestors are COMPLETELY colorblind. They arent segregated in that space ladies and gentlemen. I have a suspicion that each one of them is somehow linked to each other. THis is how the "universal intelligence" is formed. Its how it exists. It knows no physical boundary, i.e, . rich, poor, black , white. None of that is even a reality out there in the "ether", which is the universal meting pot our souls come from, and return to. We get all that "scheiss" in our heads when we're born onto this plane of existance, adn our reptilian mind begins to feel fear, and greed.
Its not JUST about being the best bass player you can be, see?
Try and not "see" the next new person you meet. Listen. How do they make you feel? DONT OPEN YOUR EYES! Feel them, dont "see" them. When you "see" them you're apt to let society's "reductioism" in and make erroneous judgements. Practice "feeling their aura". that's a mutherflippin' wildarse rainbow man, no black , white, or borwn man...and says EVERYTHING about the soul you are communicating with while the physical structure of their skin says NOTHING.
Its about us bass players, who GET IT, saving the rest of the world from ourselves and moving our species ahead through elimination of the physical boundaries our socities impose on us. Those things still enslave us ALL.
[size=+2] Free Your Funky Mind and YOU can fly![/size]
Y'all dig what that means now? Cool. My work is done here. Hand grenade went BOOM and my guts are still where the Maker intended them to be. Helps being a FAT WHITE BOY, (who pretends to change color when he plays ) ! We're all blessed, particular when we COME TOGETHER.
Lowenders, Y'all are on a universal mission you might not be aware of. Serve it well.
Dig?
Preface: I'm totally colorblind or practice that daily, but my "brutha" side is what I lean on on stage.
Why, becuase of the color of my skin? Becuase I was born rich, or poor. Naw. Come on. Think about your musical upbringing, your culture that you were born into. ( not where you came from , thats different, as you'll see )
I was raised by immigrants, white european immigrants. The music THEY listened to was standard 4/4 time or waltzes. My dad liked country music. Immigrant redneck that he was, and mom dug Tom Jones.
In the same 'hood I grew up in ( they called it the Jewish ghetto, although Ty and I werent Jewish! ), a sax player named Tyrone grew up around the block.
Now, the trouble with white immigrants, unfortunately, is they're racist generally. Partially because they aint never seen a black person before, part, of course is the simplistic reductionism of racism ( when we cannot think or feel for ourselves, we rely on reductionism to make judgement for us), and lastly, I think "fitting" in with their Anglo workmates in a new country by "hating" the same folks they did.
Long story short, I had to lie to my dad about going to Ty's house and jammin'.
Ty's record collection ( we both had like 5 records! ) , and the stuff his mom played was COMPLETLEY different than what you heard in our house.
And that music wasnt all four four time. It had "funny" accents. Odd stops, and a much more flowing and alive groove.
Tyrone grew up with a much more palpable feeling of "groove" or pulse in the music his parents and he listened to. Even though we both grew up in "musical" households.
Same would apply to a Brazilian and a Swede.
Simple answer, and I'll put it in more eloquent terms than those "ignorant terms of color" , most peps of european descent were not exposed to more complex melodies and rhythms of other lands, and in particular as it applies to the US population, African rhythms and melodies.
To be a great bass player, you have to live on the " universal plane", that's well above your roots. The "universal plane" is the place where ALL OF OUR ROOTS mingle.
Because, you have to trust me on this one folks, the souls of our ancestors are COMPLETELY colorblind. They arent segregated in that space ladies and gentlemen. I have a suspicion that each one of them is somehow linked to each other. THis is how the "universal intelligence" is formed. Its how it exists. It knows no physical boundary, i.e, . rich, poor, black , white. None of that is even a reality out there in the "ether", which is the universal meting pot our souls come from, and return to. We get all that "scheiss" in our heads when we're born onto this plane of existance, adn our reptilian mind begins to feel fear, and greed.
Its not JUST about being the best bass player you can be, see?
Try and not "see" the next new person you meet. Listen. How do they make you feel? DONT OPEN YOUR EYES! Feel them, dont "see" them. When you "see" them you're apt to let society's "reductioism" in and make erroneous judgements. Practice "feeling their aura". that's a mutherflippin' wildarse rainbow man, no black , white, or borwn man...and says EVERYTHING about the soul you are communicating with while the physical structure of their skin says NOTHING.
Its about us bass players, who GET IT, saving the rest of the world from ourselves and moving our species ahead through elimination of the physical boundaries our socities impose on us. Those things still enslave us ALL.
[size=+2] Free Your Funky Mind and YOU can fly![/size]
Y'all dig what that means now? Cool. My work is done here. Hand grenade went BOOM and my guts are still where the Maker intended them to be. Helps being a FAT WHITE BOY, (who pretends to change color when he plays ) !
We're all blessed, particular when we COME TOGETHER. Lowenders, Y'all are on a universal mission you might not be aware of. Serve it well.
Dig?
