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BASSISTS AND ETHNICITY

How many biologically white parents / grandparents / great grandparents does it take to make a black person biologically white?? If someone is 5/8ths white they are still referred to as black by you? If so, what is the percentage of funkiness in proportion to the ability to play banjo?

Interesting- is Lenny Kravitz white or black??? Tiger Woods???
Lenny had a white father (Jewish no less) and Woods an Asian mother.
But yet are both "black".

Lenny is a groovy as hell musician. I'll go on a limb here and think that as much as he can swing a club, I'm not under the impression he's too funky. (And his wife is white- a super model and they have a child- so is that child black???)

WAYYY OT - sorry!
 
I don't think that anyone has thrown this out there yet but it is a theory I have regarding this issue.

I think that a lot of black bassists and drummers are really funky due to learning how to play in thier churches. I have had some gigs with black gospel choirs and some of the kids they have playing drums are only like 13 and lay down some slammin grooves!!!!! The style of music is heavily groove based and has its influence. Maybe it is not race so much as environment.


Trust me, the church I came up in could've sung for Billy Graham. No funk. No groove.
 
I'm staying far, far away from the main topic here, but just wanted to say that the South Park clip where Token finds a bass in his basement (because he's black) and knows how to play a funky bassline, even though he's never touched a bass before (because he's black), is satire. It's supposed to be obviously ridiculous (like the premise of the OP) and that's what makes it satire.






And now back to your regularly scheduled discussion.
 
TICK......TICK......TICK....I HAVE A FEELING THAT THIS THREAD.......TICK......TICK......TICK.....IS ABOUT TO BLOW ITSELF UP ANY MINUTE......TICK......TICK.....TICK....DOES IT REALLY MATTER-AS LONG AS THE BASSIST IS FULFILLING HIS/HER ROLE IN THE SONG?????? CAN'T WE ALL JUST-BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!




A Groove is a Terrible Thing to Waste! :cool:
 
Years ago I went to a mostly black church in a little space above a Mr. Submarine. My sunday school room was in a hallway with curtains for doors and for about an hour before the lesson began people would be coming through it to get to the other rooms. But every sunday at noon that place rocked the house. The band was incredible.

Fast forward 12 years later I go to a predominately white church that with members that have probably been going there for the 40 or 50 years it's been there. The driest, loveless most boring atmosphere I could ever imagine myself being in. I heard greater enthusiasm in subway stop announcments than in their "singing session". :hiding:
 
Unbelievable, this thread took a surrealistic twist. Someone looking for others that share his opinion and wow this debacle unfolded.:confused:
Race, religion, color, creed, sexual orientation does not factor into the expression of music.
Play and learn to play as best you can.
I'm not looking for anything. I posted a comment that is on topic with the thread...race and music, and how the two might be connected.
 
Eublet, if it makes you feel any better, I do agree with you to a certain extent. But it does seem, to me, that you give more credit to genetically based differences than they are probably deserving of.

Nature defined us first, and made us different through natural selection. Races became what they were over time to adapt to the environments they lived in. Some traits became more advantageous than others, and they persist to this day as predominant traits we can identify the races by.

The rise of civilization took us in a related but different course - humans themselves began to select traits and promote their survival. Part of nature's role is removed by civilization.

It is only recently that interracial marriages are becoming more than an oddity, and the lines between the races - those few genes that almost exclusively frequented particular groups in particular places - are beginning to blur.

But despite physical traits, culture is the ultimate means of overriding what we are born with - what would help or hurt us in a wild, uncivilized, anarchic world. Culture cannot make up for everything, but I think you're discrediting its ability to make many physical differences ineffectual.

Cultures are built with specific groups in mind - they are designed to cater to the traits of the group. It fosters positive identity, in-group pride, a sense of belonging, a sense of who we are. And what better way to begin than by building it around what makes us alike or different?

Rap, R&B, Jazz, Soul, Blues - they were developed by blacks, for blacks. But that was only in the beginning. The beauty of music is that, as an art form, it is not as restrictive as ethnicity or gender. We see more black bassists playing in these genres than any other ethnic group. And yes, we know there are exceptions... but it's more than that.

What we see is not all that can be. You make the assertion that blacks tend to be naturally better at bass. But bass is like any other instrument; anyone can play them, and there are no limitations on the music. The claim that blacks can groove better on bass because of inherent physical advantages makes the following assumptions:

1) That the genres your assumptions are based on feature what you perceive to be the best bass playing.
2) That the inherent physical advantages you suggest tend to be essential for good bass playing.
3) That other genres don't speak to you the way that your favorite ones do.

And therein lies the problem. Your argument has its merits, but what I have a serious problem with is the measurement of quality. And quality cannot be quantified in universal terms.

I admire Victor Wooten, but the Flecktones aren't on my list of favorite bands. Is this blasphemy? Maybe to you. Does this mean I have bad taste in music? Maybe to you. Does this mean that I don't know what a good bassist really is? Maybe to you.

I think you're getting my point by now. But let's continue...

Compare an album from a profound metal group with white members, like Pantera. Not everyone's cup of tea, I'd imagine, but there are few, if any, metal groups with black members that sound even remotely like that. And I bet there are even fewer that can sound as good - to my ears. My next example: B.B. King. I'm sorry, George Thorogood, but you'll never rock the blues like B.B. King does. But again, what do you notice? My opinions are just that - opinions. A general consensus isn't going to change what I think about who's better.

So what's my general point? At the end of the day, physical traits don't really matter. It may give a black bass player an advantage, but only for certain things - just like any other trait. If he can't play something that speaks to me, that opens my mind, that means something to me... then it doesn't matter how "good" someone else thinks his playing is, because clearly it wasn't good enough to win me over. But I'm just one person.

And that's why no individual is qualified to make judgments of art and artists that are universally true... not even generally true... not even generally true for a long period of time. Music changes, tastes change, people change. Is Elvis still the King? Sure, if you grew up with him. He had a great voice. But is it the greatest voice ever? My dad thinks so, but I don't. There you go... I, within the groups I identify with, within the generation I identify with, has changed the definition of what being the "best" means. And now Mr. Presley's smooth, deep vocals aren't so great anymore.

A particular white metal bassist may have the fastest fingers on the planet, and a particular black funk bassist may have a groove that no one else can match, but unless those bassists can win me over, then they're not really that great to me.

So really, now... can you still say that blacks still have a natural advantage for grooving on the bass? Of course you can, because it's your opinion, based on what you define as quality grooving.

It narrows down to one thing: what you and I think.

EDIT: On an odd side note... I'm honestly very impressed with this thread. It's quite an eye-opener... there's a lot to be learned from everything that has been said here, no matter how open-minded or close-minded it appears, no matter how rational or irrational it seems. Eublet is indeed right about the nature of the argument... this thread certainly has opened the floor for discussions long overdue, in a world reluctant to talk about it head-on.
 
Mysticboo - thanks for the excellent comments. It's the kind of discussion I'm looking for.

Also, I think I need to clarify something. I'm not saying that blacks make better bassists, or better musicians for that matter. I'm saying they make for "different" musicians. They often have a certain vibe in the music they create. It's a very intangible quality that's hard to put a finger on. FWIW, I think Jaco, a white guy, is in fact the greatest bass player ever. He's as funky as they come. His playing doesn't have the vibe I'm talking about. (Neither does Wooten's either since you mentioned him.) Ever heard Andre Gouche lay down some sick gospel bass? Man, it's crazy. Haven't heard very many white guys FEEL like that, but there have been a few. But I've heard black teenage bass players who can pull off that vibe, albeit with much less technicality and prowess. I'm not sure that it's just nurture. I've grown up in multi-cultural gospel music, along with a lot of other white people. I hardly ever hear that gospel vibe in white players on ANY instrument. Same goes for white singers. They might have a lot of soul in their style...it still sounds, I dunno, white. Not better or worse, just different somehow.

Now all this is opinion I'm giving is coming from the eye (or ear) of the beholder. So it makes me wonder if it's just me, or if there is something else, something genetic attached to race, that makes up for the slight difference which I can only describe as a "vibe" and gives that race a greater propensity for creating it.
 
Now all this is opinion I'm giving is coming from the eye (or ear) of the beholder. So it makes me wonder if it's just me, or if there is something else, something genetic attached to race, that makes up for the slight difference which I can only describe as a "vibe" and gives that race a greater propensity for creating it.

Hmm... I can see where you're coming from.

I'd really need to feel the vibe you're feeling... and that's an entirely different dilemma.

If I could walk a day in your shoes... :D
 
Here's my two cents worth.
It's about music and the level of commitment in the pursuit of musical perfection on an individual and group level. That translates down to something that touches the collective peoples of all cultures and gives them something to identify with and absorb into their culture. We are fortunate to be alive in this time in that all the music from various cultures are available to everyone, and those musical influences are accessible to those musicians wanting to expand they're musical horizons. Great music is written and performed by true musicians of all races and cultures and this music is either ignored or appreciated by peoples of all races.

We are all human beings with the same strengths and weaknesses as the next guy, but not everyone has the same talents. Everyone has the ability to be a class act or an A-hole regardless of race. Music is the one true language of the heart and soul that transcends race, politics, religion, and education. It doesn’t matter if your rich or poor, young or old or in at least one case deaf. Learning is the key. There are plenty of people from all races who say they are musicians that have a very limited musical vocabulary, and there are those few who spend their whole life learning everything they can to evolve their art in ways most can't conceive. Just look how bassists have evolved since the turn of the last century. Study the trail of it's evolution to this point in time and you'll find that the innovators have come from every race and culture the world over.

Bail the racial krapp and don't be a wimp. Evolve musically.

Steve
 
I have admittedly only browsed this thread but I have always seen the issue as pretty much 50/50.
As may caucasians as non caucasians seem to live on the olymp of bass.
Music has, as far as I am aware always been an amalgamate of more than just one place's influences.
 
My 1 cent on this topic.......i see the point that the original person was trying to talk about.I agree an disagree with some here(no biggie) but to go along with the original idea.
ex....Me..i'm 100% latino/hispanic(Puerto Rican mother and Nicaraguan father) born in the U.S.A. raised in P.R.(do not know anything about my father's culture btw)now.
Does this mean i can play/dance mad Salsa........wrong.Like it's been said here it all depends on what you grew up listening to,even when there's hundreds of radio stations with many different styles of music i spent my teenage years listening to rock/metal only.
So that's what i play,do i wish i had been a little bit more open minded and listen and learn other styles....yup.I could've been a better bassist if i would've done that(i'm working on it)But like a lot of people said here is not about the color/race or whatever you want to blame it on,it does not work that way.
Btw not bashing on anyone here like i said at the begining(agree and disagree).
 
How many biologically white parents / grandparents / great grandparents does it take to make a black person biologically white?? If someone is 5/8ths white they are still referred to as black by you? If so, what is the percentage of funkiness in proportion to the ability to play banjo?

Funny thing is, the banjo is a native of Africa.
 
Okay.... I have to cut in with some ideas of my own.

I'm probably the only Asian living in Asia speaking about this in this thread (I mentioned about Asian culture vs other cultures) and after reading up more about it and learning new things, I have to say that MysticBoo probably hit home in a lot of things.

Now to talk about something SLIGHTLY more controversial. I've had this talk with some friends and family members and it's always come out rather funny and ridiculous but here goes. Oh yes, this is just an opinion mixed with some facts that I've learnt.

Fact: Right brain controls a lot of your artistic functions. It affects how you perceive the world and how you can observe things.
Fact: Most people nowadays have left brain dominance. We evolved that way because the left brain is in charge of higher order thinking, meaning processing information and creating new information out of it. This is when we started developing tools which became useful. Left brain dominance helps that.
Fact: Frontal lobe of your brain is in charge of ideas and impulses (and importantly, control) and all the things you think about. And your temporal lobes help you translate it into whatever you want it to. (These few parts are a bit hazy for me because even in science it's a bit hazy but damage to these areas often cause overactive imagination, overproduction of ideas, and in severe damage, cause loss of control)
Fact: Savants (people with incredible abilities in observation, mathematical and pattern recognition due to cognitive defects from birth which causes right brain to be dominant) don't have higher order thinking which left brain has but have tremendous skills in artistic side regardless. Importantly, they only can REPRODUCE art. Not CREATE fully new art.

So to that comes the opinions part. If I'm wrong in any of the above feel free to correct me. The rest are my opinions.

Art is a mixture of reproduction what you observe and experience, and a creation of something new. When you create art, it draws memories and ideas from your right brain: those that you have experienced and closely observed. What happens? Your left brain processes it and decides whether to use it or not.

That's the fusion of right and left brain right there. Left brain pure dominance doesn't help you in art because of the lack of observation, learning and memory skills which are critical in -good-(subjective) art. Pure right brain? You're just reproducing note for note, stroke for stroke of the original art.

So what has this gotta do with anything?

Think about it. Culture plays a major role, so does genetics. But genetics might make it seem racist etc. even though it isn't exactly. And I don't know how to explain the genetics part well, just hypotheses which are quite unsubstantial so yeah.

But CULTURE. That's the key. Left brain dominant societies like Asia cause major issues in artistic creations (of course not really much of the case in some sense). Look at Chinese Symphonic Orchestras. The bloody players are so pitch perfect and so technical it blows you away. Same with Japanese. Same with Russian. But they're so strict with time and technique that it's annoying to listen to it so perfect. It's when you wonder: "Where's the human element?"

Listen to many of the asian players. Sick skills, but the groove! Very few make it in terms of groove. So what happens? You have many many Asians who use technique to shock and awe and impress. That's left brain dominance. Everything is digital and broken down step by step etc.

Whereas if you look at the people who started jazz. They didn't care about technique, they cared about their music. They were the people working in the fields doing manual labour and music was their only solace. They were hard workers, weren't required by society to THINK so much, just do work. What happens? Less left brain dominance, right brain can come out more. They observe things around them and they have continuous ideas pouring because of the continuous stream of bombardment of sensations and observations.

They translate it into what they want. "Whatever sounds nice" would be a good way to describe what they played. They learnt it from that kind of background, unlike the "technical" Asian culture.

Just my minute 2 cents.

Hope it's worth thinking about.
 
True Story:

I studied Jazz with the blind sax player Eric Kloss in Pittsburgh for several years, years ago. Did I say he was blind? I would play music for him I was interested in. If I played him some sax player he had never heard before, he would try and figure out who the player was. He could tell if a player was black or white very quickly, and was always right...with one exception, which he got right, but it took him awhile..

that was Joe Lovano, who at the time he was not familiar with him. I played him some track off a cd, and he got this look on his face? "Black guy? White guy?"...then he heard a phrase, and said: "ahhh...he has been listening to Sinatra, I bet he is a white guy". Lovano has cited Frankie as an influence in his playing..

and another one:

I was in a casual band that did some cast party gigs years ago, a bunch of guys in our late 20's early 30's, merged with a bunch of african americans from the Pitt Jazz program. We figured out what we were going to play (standards, etc), but then we had to play DANCE music at the end of the night.

Guess who had to show the Pitt Jazz students various Sly, Isley brothers, James Brown and Miles Davis Funk riffs to dance to? The very, very white (I come from the land of ice and snow!..) bass player....we got the place dancing...

I don't put much stock in this anymore, I have heard players of all colors sound like players of every other color, and frankly I could give a d***.
 
I believe the late Art Davis lobbied, perhaps even filed suit against the classical audition process, due to the fact that it was discriminatory against African American bassists. He felt a screen should obscure the bassist so only the player's music performance would be the criteria. Orchestra's still discourage left handed players, so all kinds of major and minor crap like this still goes on in the 'established' music world. Does anyone out there feel as I do, that the ONE DAMN place that race and color issues be left behind is on the bandstand? All that really matters is if you can play. PLEASE, go buy the DVD "Standing in The Shadows of Motown" The men that made that music were AMERICANS! They were black and white, working together they created some of the most incredible music ever recorded. Music is one of the few beautiful things left that human beings can do together to touch others in a visceral, memorable way. I just hope this commonality we feel in music could somehow enlighten the rest of this troubled planet.


almost all classical auditions are behind screens now...women and asians were also discriminated against, but look at most US orchestras now...
 
First off...This is friendly thread and is not intended to be culturally biased, racist, or promote discrimination. I was wondering why many feel that African-Americans play better bass (Jamerson, Wooten, Miller, Chambers, Graham) on these boards and in the media. Take for instance South Park (a very bad example and prejudiced) when the character "token" was asked to play bass. He replied that he couldnt and the white kids said "he was black and was born for it." Is this fact justified??? I have observed that the most dominant bassists tend to be African-American while the most dominant guitarists tend to be Caucasian. I know obviously that bassists such as Jaco Pastorius, Flea, Jeff Berlin, Jack Bruce etc...are a huge exception. I suppose that it depends on the musical genre. Anyone else feel that African-Americans tend to be more dominant and perform with tremendous feel, soul, and groove than Caucasians? This is merely opinion and I realize that I will be shot down for this thread.

You listed 5 amazing black bass players and then 4 amazing white bass players, though you thought to label the white players as a "huge exception"... Have you given any thought as to why you did that?


edit: I just went back and read what BillMason wrote on page 1....I guess you can add mine as a big +1 to what he wrote.