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BASSISTS AND ETHNICITY

i wanted to bring up the quick point of genetics, although this does basically contradict my last post, where i said it makes no difference.

ok, so rap (horrible example, but work with me). from a technical standpoint, you cant really say whites/blacks/mexicans are better or worse at rapping. what race you are doesnt determine how good your rhymes are. but, its easy to tell white/black/mexican rappers apart, because of the qualities of their voices.

and you cant say that any one race has the best voice. but culture accepts the black voice as "good" and the white voice as "poser." and the mexican voice is just something else :ninja:.

im not saying that this has any obvious application to bass, or rhythm, or groove or whatever. but there are definitely genetic differences between races that in some applications, make a difference. otherwise its a cultural thing and just assumed with no real basis.
 
ok, so rap (horrible example, but work with me). from a technical standpoint, you cant really say whites/blacks/mexicans are better or worse at rapping. what race you are doesnt determine how good your rhymes are. but, its easy to tell white/black/mexican rappers apart, because of the qualities of their voices.

and you cant say that any one race has the best voice. but culture accepts the black voice as "good" and the white voice as "poser." and the mexican voice is just something else :ninja:.

Like Molotov and Cypress Hill? Or even Rage Against the Machine? :D

But getting back to what you said... rap has its origins in black culture, so it's no surprise that the black voice is the accepted standard, and the industry is always reluctant to accept those outside the norm. Of course, when you consider someone like Eminem, we're reminded that even rap music can transcend racial lines... but it's still a cultural thing. Eminem was raised around and adopted black culture. My point is, I've never seen Eminem square-dance or wear a cowboy hat. :D
 
There it is folks, nurture.

It's cultural, so somebody can notice cultural differences without it being a racial superiority thingy.


Good point- some of my Friends:
Phil Chen ( Jeff Beck, E Clapton, Bob Marley) is from Jamaica. Jamaica ? Chinese?
Kai Eckhardt ( J McLaughlin, R Towner) is from Germany. German ? Black? White?

Myself - Lived in the Black household in Ca for many years while going to college. Black? Chinese?
 
Alright, I found that ten foot pole I was looking for.

I'm a white guy, but my bass is black. Does that put me on equal footing with a black guy playing a white bass?? Does the color of the instrument make any difference at all?


I think the beautiful thing about music, and about playing music is that it is a colorless window into the heart and soul of the musician. When I listen to music it's all about emotion and feel. I don't much care what the musician looks like. It's all about the expression and how it makes me feel. Music truly is the "international language". Whether it's Baudin, or Wooten, or some guy in a jug band playing a washtub, it's all about what the player is saying to me. Music is about the most non-visual thing there is. ANYBODY can play bass and play it well. With the exception of yours truly that is. Genetics, or poor locomotor control?? I refuse to believe I can't play like Wooten just because I'm white.
 
Yeah, Jaco was white. And he didn't sound black either...

What about choirs? You can take 20 blacks with good voices, and you have yourself a choir! Some of the best black gospel choirs I've witnessed were under 30 people. Simply amazing. To get that kind of sound out of a white choir, you need twice the people. Someone called this genetics...I agree.

So why can't we just SUPPOSE for one second that those genetic differences extend into the brain of the black person (or white, whatever) and cause that person to have different capacities for emotional and/or artistic responses? It's quite simple people. I'm not saying it IS that way. I'm saying it could be, but it's so freakin' taboo to even discuss it. Look at all the people here in this thread who adamantly refuse to even consider it, and just want the whole conversation to go away. What harm is there in truly understanding our differences? Perhaps if we did understand them, then it would ease so much tension that has existed for centuries?

I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud here. I will say that, even if there are differences, that does mean there is a reason for one race to consider itself better than the other. In my mind, it's just like understanding the differences between a man and a woman. We've all been told that a woman can do anything a man can do, and vice versa. But we all know that is not true. Men are typically stronger, and can excel at physical activity. Women are typically better at empathy and such. We are different. Would covering all that up make anything any better? I don't think so.
 
Yeah, Jaco was white. And he didn't sound black either...

He didn't "Sound" black?? I've never actually "Heard" black. I've listened to music in the dark. Does that count?


How many black folks in America are 100% African?? Do you believe that a light skinned black person has less soul than a dark skinned black person? There has been quite a significant dilution of "black blood" over the last few hundred years. If I have a child with a black woman would my child be less funky than a child she may have had with a black man??
 
Gee, what about classical bassists, are whites and asians better? Maybe if i wore blackface would I be a better bassist? If you have to preface a statement with "I don't want to sound racist", then you are probably about to say something racists, and this thread is no exception. Can we get a moderator to shut this turd down?
 
Music is all nurture based.
If we are talking culture, I believe it can have an impact.
Australia is a very young developing culture with its musical traditions linked to the old world classics and Blues/Rock since the post war era. Somewhere along the line Australia lost its connection to the British and Irish folk traditions while Australian folk is more of a local facination. The result seems to bee that their is a homogenous pop scene where the bulk of Australian Bands have been strongly Blues based from the rootsy surfers to the pubrockers.

In contrast the parent cultures of Britain and Ireland are still well based in their rich folk and classic traditions where bands such as the Smiths, Big Country, U2... and so many more can exploit the local rhythm and melodies. There really feels that to be immersed in that environment can only strenghten ones "vibe".

To be immersed in that environment, that's what is really going on. That is why Aussies are good Swimmers, cricketers etc. The local "conditions" permit it such as training all ytear round. I can imagine in England looking outside and thinking it's too cold so I'll sit by the fire/heater and practice the guitar/piano/bass.

Ok that was a load of dribble but I felt like directing this to cultures rather than races to support my view of the nurturing environment.
 
Music is a universal language. The issue of ethnic background shouldn't ever really matter. If you look at blues in general, you'll find that it was the british kids of the '50s that kept the fire burning from the old masters. Beck, Clapton, Page, etc. kept that music alive.

And if you want to start looking at who played when, here's a few examples:

The Funk Brothers had both Joe Messina and Bob Babbitt

In rock, we have Jimi Hendrix and Philip Lynott.

Rick James' guitarist was white.

Sly and the Family Stone were completely integrated

Average White Band were as funk as you could get.

Living Colour were not.

The music speaks for itself. Move on...nothing to see here.
 
Exceptions don't negate the norm. Post them all you want. I don't think it prooves anything either way. There are some really lame black musicians. There are some really funky white musicians. So what.

Again, why do we feel the need to be defensive about racial differences that extend beyond what we can physically verify with our eyes? Think about it. Why is it so taboo. We don't have to decide anything in this thread. You don't have to make a decision about it. Just be open to the idea I think. You can't negate the fact that we have different skin colors, different hair textures, different facial features, different body shapes often as well (average white girl's butt next to the average black girls butt...very different, yes?) It's just easy to see those differences with our eyes. But can't there exist differences beyond that? Do you have to be a racist just to open up the possiblity? We all know that culture and nurture have PROFOUND effects on how a person is wired as the mature. No question there. But can't there be room for something more? And if so, why does it have to be something negative? Why the fear in understanding it? I swear, this is one of the most closed subjects on the planet today. The message is "We're all the same. Don't ask questions. Conform or be labeled a bigot." I just don't like that.
 
this is ridiculously nonsensical!
How so? As a person who has been around many-a-choir, I can assure you that this rule of thumb holds true. Blacks tend to have much more powerful voices, and it makes a huge difference in a choir.

Do you have a reason for saying my statements are non-sensical, or is it just the easy thing to say?
 
Exceptions don't negate the norm. Post them all you want. I don't think it prooves anything either way. There are some really lame black musicians. There are some really funky white musicians. So what.

In science if you can find one contrary piece of evidence then the theory is bunk and must be modified or abandoned. Exceptions make the theory useless.

Those exceptions are not exceptions if you consider it cultural. Take for instance Flea, he was raised around pro level jazz muscians of many races, hence he has a feel for funk. Take for instance Charlie Pride, he was raised in a more country music enviroment, hence he is an excellent country music singer.

Most american kids today grew up listening to rap, metal and pop. That's why you will see more bands like Living Color and more rappers like Eminem.
 
In science if you can find one contrary piece of evidence then the theory is bunk and must be modified or abandoned. Exceptions make the theory useless.
That's not true at all, especially in areas of study where exceptions can be explained within the theory itself. Considering the huge gene pool which exists in the human race, and the mixing of those genes between races, exceptions and such are easy to explain. Also, it's not as if the differences that I'm suggesting for discussion are so far apart.

The truth of the matter is that the mind is such a complex thing, we really don't have the ability to understand or explore the possibilities today.
 
How so? As a person who has been around many-a-choir, I can assure you that this rule of thumb holds true. Blacks tend to have much more powerful voices, and it makes a huge difference in a choir.

Do you have a reason for saying my statements are non-sensical, or is it just the easy thing to say?


i have many a reason...however i simply dont have the time to fight ignorance....a superhero i am not.

this entire discussion is beyond me... i am in no way close to having the wisdom and foresight capable enough to distinguish between what race has the better voice, playing ability, has a bigger a$$, dances better, counts higher or has the ability or worldly expertise to comment on the creative traits of any given race.

you must be the "chosen" one! i am humbled in your presence and unequivocal knowledge.
 
i have many a reason...however i simply dont have the time to fight ignorance....a superhero i am not.

this entire discussion is beyond me... i am in no way close to having the wisdom and foresight capable enough to distinguish between what race has the better voice, playing ability, has a bigger a$$, dances better, counts higher or has the ability or worldly expertise to comment on the creative traits of any given race.

you must be the "chosen" one! i am humbled in your presence and unequivocal knowledge.

Ignorant = uninformed, not stupid. Right?

So please tell me, how am I ignorant? Please tell me. I think that you wouldn't know where to begin. Why?

Because now your just being difficult and using that as a defense mechanism. I haven't claimed to have supreme knowledge in this area either, so please spare me your inflamatory comments.

As for ignorance, I'm claiming that we are all ignorant on this subject because the truth is no one really knows. Mental, emotional, and artistic qualities are a hard thing to explain in a singular individual, much less a population. I'm just wondering why no one wants to consider the possiblity.

Why does my discussion of this make people so uneasy?
 
I'm probably unwise to enter into this fray, but here's an idea to consider regarding the stereotypical "funky black bassist" vs. the stereotypical "flashy white guitarist":

There are broadly acknowledged different genres within popular music which cater to different demographic target markets. Each genre has its own characteristics and tends to place emphasis on different musical elements. Funk, R&B and other so-called "black music" typically is very groove oriented and often features the bass. Rock music, which targets a primarily white audience, tends to feature the guitar.

So it should not be surprising if one demographic group who grow up listening to and playing more groove oriented music wind up producing a disproportionately larger number of funky bass players. Nor should it be surprising if another group who grow up immersed in a guitar-glorifying musical culture wind up producing more virtuoso guitarists. The exceptions to these generalizations prove that anybody can be influenced by any kind of music, but that doesn't change the fact that most African Americans are generally influenced by groove music, and most white Americans are into rock & roll.
 
That's not true at all, especially in areas of study where exceptions can be explained within the theory itself. Considering the huge gene pool which exists in the human race, and the mixing of those genes between races, exceptions and such are easy to explain. Also, it's not as if the differences that I'm suggesting for discussion are so far apart.

The truth of the matter is that the mind is such a complex thing, we really don't have the ability to understand or explore the possibilities today.



Scientific inquiry proceeds by formulating a hypothesis in a form that could conceivably be falsified by a test on observable data. A test that could and does run contrary to predictions of the hypothesis is taken as a falsification of the hypothesis

Karl Popper described the characteristics of a scientific theory as follows:

It is easy to obtain confirmations, or verifications, for nearly every theory — if we look for confirmations.
Confirmations should count only if they are the result of risky predictions; that is to say, if, unenlightened by the theory in question, we should have expected an event which was incompatible with the theory — an event which would have refuted the theory.
Every "good" scientific theory is a prohibition: it forbids certain things to happen. The more a theory forbids, the better it is.
A theory which is not refutable by any conceivable event is non-scientific. Irrefutability is not a virtue of a theory (as people often think) but a vice.
Every genuine test of a theory is an attempt to falsify it, or to refute it. Testability is falsifiability; but there are degrees of testability: some theories are more testable, more exposed to refutation, than others; they take, as it were, greater risks.
Confirming evidence should not count except when it is the result of a genuine test of the theory; and this means that it can be presented as a serious but unsuccessful attempt to falsify the theory. (I now speak in such cases of "corroborating evidence.")
Some genuinely testable theories, when found to be false, are still upheld by their admirers — for example by introducing ad hoc some auxiliary assumption, or by reinterpreting the theory ad hoc in such a way that it escapes refutation. Such a procedure is always possible, but it rescues the theory from refutation only at the price of destroying, or at least lowering, its scientific status. (I later describe such a rescuing operation as a "conventionalist twist" or a "conventionalist stratagem").
One can sum up all this by saying that according to Popper, the criterion of the scientific status of a theory is its falsifiability, or refutability, or testability.


Falsifiability (or refutability or testability) is the logical possibility that an assertion can be shown false by an observation or a physical experiment. That something is "falsifiable" does not mean it is false; rather, it means that it is capable of being disproved under hypothetical circumstances. Falsifiability is an important concept in science and the philosophy of science.

Some philosophers and scientists, most notably Karl Popper, have asserted that a hypothesis, proposition or theory is scientific only if it is falsifiable.

For example, "all men are mortal" is unfalsifiable, since no amount of observation could ever demonstrate its falsehood. "All men are immortal," by contrast, is falsifiable, by the presentation of just one dead man.
Not all statements that are falsifiable in principle are so in practice. For example, "it will be raining here in one million years" is theoretically falsifiable, but not practically.



Invalid Link Removed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

Development of a Simple Theory by the Scientific Method:

Observation: Every swan I've ever seen is white.
Hypothesis: All swans must be white.
Test: A random sampling of swans from each continent where swans are indigenous produces only white swans.
Publication: "My global research has indicated that swans are always white, wherever they are observed."
Verification: Every swan any other scientist has ever observed in any country has always been white.
Theory: All swans are white.
Prediction: The next swan I see will be white.

Note, however, that although the prediction is useful, the theory does not absolutely prove that the next swan I see will be white. Thus it is said to be falsifiable. If anyone ever saw a black swan, the theory would have to be tweaked or thrown out. Real scientific theories must be falsifiable. So-called "theories" based on religion, such as creationism or intelligent design are, therefore, not scientific theories. They are not falsifiable and they do not follow the scientific method.

http://wilstar.com/theories.htm

According to Stephen Hawking in A Brief History of Time, "a theory is a good theory if it satisfies two requirements: It must accurately describe a large class of observations on the basis of a model which contains only a few arbitrary elements, and it must make definite predictions about the results of future observations". He goes on to state, "any physical theory is always provisional, in the sense that it is only a hypothesis; you can never prove it. No matter how many times the results of experiments agree with some theory, you can never be sure that the next time the result will not contradict the theory. On the other hand, you can disprove a theory by finding even a single observation which disagrees with the predictions of the theory".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory