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BASSISTS AND ETHNICITY

I vote nurture too...and I believe that race usually has a lot to do with nurture.

I also find that at Jazz concerts the, generally White people seem to have preset foot tapping bpm's (steady, but not quite in time...) while other people (Black people mostly) tend to move with the music. I find it to be a funny thing to point out to friends when out.
 
My original argument here wasn't made to suggest that I have it all figured out, or that things are as I'm calling them. I'm in fact not trying to call anything. I'm just saying that we are different in ways that go far deeper than our aesthetic appearances. We have mental, emotional, perhaps even spiritual differences that reveal themselves in ways that we have yet to understand, largely because we aren't trying to.

Sure we do. But those difference rarely manifest themselves as heightened/diminished capacity uniformly throughout any given race. So just because there are "differences that extended beyond the surface" does not mean they are responsible for a predictable set of results from any particular race. Change the word "race" with "culture" and I will start to agree. Cultural immersion can be a better predictor of ability than race.

This is the same sort of logic - logic based on casual observation then pursued as science - the leads to some epic misconceptions and even worse, some tragic actions based on those epic misconceptions.

Believing casual observation is some sort of evidence of anything larger that what you see is a little spooky. The world is HUGE - and you cannot possibly see enough to make that sort of leap.
 
And I have yet to see an actual white person too for that matter... ...We're all coloured, just in varying degrees of brown!!

So what do you make of someone who identifies themselves as "black" and participates in activities commonly associated with "black" culture, with other people who also identify themselves as "black"?

Granted that all labels are inherently flawed and all human lines are inherently blurred, but that doesn't mean we are all identical, or should not observe historical traditions and family/cultural affiliations if we choose to; nor does it mean that those cultural/familial associations are nonexistant.

Since by my definition there are plural cultures (though they do -and must- overlap) it is therefore fair to try to observe one thing or another about those different cultures, and appreciate those differences.

I love Chinese food. Is that racist?
 
See what happens on a slow day on the TB forums.... somebody pulls the pin on a grenade and rolls it throught he door, and puff... instant posts!!!!
Can we talk politics and religion next?!?!?
 
Pop music in America and the West largely comes out of Black culture, either African American or elsewhere as in the case of reggae. Since African music is very rythmn based, it shouldn't be a surprise that African descended people are prominent as rythmn section players like bassists.

As for a lack of Black guitarists, that is simply another stereotype. There have been dozens of very influential r&b, jazz, blues, and rock Black guitarists. As far as I know, all of the reggae and Afropop guitarists are Black.

I am American of Cuban descendancy. In Cuba we were very strongly influenced by the African rythym and percussion similar to the Domincan Republic, Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, Jamaica and other Caribbean islands. Brazil and Cuba are similar in their African influences.

I agree in that those of African descent and of African influences bring more groove to the table. BUT there is always exceptions.

For guitar players yes many guitar players are Caucaisan but for those in the rock genre, what is the basis of rock n' roll?

BLUES. As for Afican -American musicians and guitarists, Chuck Berry, Jimi Hendrix and the list goes on. So Afican grooves have had a big impact and influence on BLues, Jazz, Soul, Rock, Son, Cumbia, Merengue, Rumba, "Salsa" etc.

My statement is more influence based and where it comes from versus the color of one's skin. Aa person of Asian descent or Polish descent can be influenced by certain music as for example: Brazilan music (which has a strong Affro influece) and can exert that on bass, drums, keys, guitar andf other instruments...it's how the musician connects to his or her audience not THE COLOR HIS OR HER SKIN.
 
I think it's all a matter of how you were brought up. Most black people listen to a lot of rhythm bassed music. So isn't it safe to say that if you grow up listening/dancing to rhythm bassed music, you'll have a better grasp of it if and when you decide to become a bassist (or drummer etc.)? I think that's where the stereotype comes from, and that's why there are ALWAYS exceptions to it...
 
IMO, its not really about ethnicity, but just how you were raised and the culture that you grew up with. of course, in many cases your ethnicity plays a major factor in how you were raised.

so i definitely do not believe that musically, people have a genetic disposition to certain things. keeping that in mind, the fact that you may see more black/white people doing this/that is not always a random event.
 
My point is that reality is often what we percieve it to be. If we never directly engage that perception with dialogue and study, we'll never alter reality. We'll continue to be forcefed that we're all created equal, even while most people don't believe it. And we'll do it quitely and like it because that's what we're supposed to do as good, compassionate humans.

That all depends on your definition of "equal".

There are differences between different races, but the debate rages on as to how much/little can be attributed to genetic and biological factors, and how much/little is due to circumstances outside of biology: environment, culture, etc.

Not to mention, social and environmental factors completely alter the concept of "equality" from the moment we're born. I was born in the United States, into a lower-middle class Mexican family with immigrant parents who spoke imperfect English. My closest childhood friend is Vietnamese, whose parents came here in the aftermath of the Vietnam War. I'm in Berkeley, he's in a community college after being kicked out of a university for a variety of reasons I will not discuss here. If you wanted to compare ethnic trends to our paths of success (by traditional American economic standards), you'd be puzzled by that result. Did racial differences matter there? Or was it perhaps something else?

We went to the same schools, had the same friends and classes, and had some common goals in mind. But he wants to go into engineering. I want to go to law school. He's into anime. I'm into science fiction. He's one of the youngest siblings in the family. I'm the oldest in mine. His parents constantly evaluate him, and use me as a comparison point (which doesn't make him feel much better). They wanted to see him get into Berkeley or Stanford. My parents, on the other hand, can't even agree on the college question; my mom wants me to do what I want to do, and she supports my law school decision; my dad, while proud of my college success, thinks my time would have been better invested in real estate.

We seem to have had equal opportunities in our education - something you don't see often in comparing any two people, since education is NOT equal in this country. But he lives within a very different family, a very different culture, and under very different personal circumstances.

Would you cite his race as the explanation? Or is it something else?

And on the subject of reality... reality is never the same for any two people. And that is why I agree that we should challenge these perceptions - but not because we see reality as it is; rather, because we DON'T see reality as it is.

We have multiple lenses through which we view the world through - culture, social ties, family upbringing, race, the media, politics, etc.. Perceived reality is the product of those lenses. Does a true reality exist? Yes, but none of us ever see all of it. We can certainly see more by borrowing the lenses of others, and that is the real goal: understanding the world through someone else's eyes, to broaden your own perception of it.

The goal is not to believe that we're all the same, but that every individual deserves to be judged through more than your own lenses. The history of the world is full of travesties and tragedies that resulted from our adherence to stereotypes about our differences. But our adherence to a singular vision of equality has done just as much damage.

Clearly, we're missing the mark again.

The whole concept of race is pretty general and unspecific anyway - what do you call the offspring of an african and a european? What if the african is "white" and the european is "black?" What if their offspring is moca coloured?

+1. We can argue about the terminology all we want, but at some point, we have to compromise and pick some terms, or we'll bring the discussions of the subject to a grinding halt.

Bringing in a personal example... I can call myself "Mexican", "Chicano", "Mexican-American", "Latino", "Latin-American", "Hispanic", "Minority", "Colored", "White", "French", "Spanish", "Aztec", "Toltec", "Indigenous", "Native American"...

Better yet, if you were to look at me, you'd spend a long time guessing what I am. I usually ask people to guess my ethnicity for fun... I've had everything from "Arabic" to "Middle Eastern" to "Russian" to "English" to "Venezuelan"... few people ever get it right the first time. I'm a product of the melting pot. :D

My point is... if I don't pick a term, it'll make for a LONG and confusing discussion. So, I usually just refer to myself as Chicano (because I think it's an adequate term), and that makes everything from statistical analysis to going out on a date a hell of a lot easier. :smug:
 
I am American of Cuban descendancy. In Cuba we were very strongly influenced by the African rythym and percussion similar to the Domincan Republic, Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, Jamaica and other Caribbean islands. Brazil and Cuba are similar in their African influences.

I agree in that those of African descent and of African influences bring more groove to the table. BUT there is always exceptions.

For guitar players yes many guitar players are Caucaisan but for those in the rock genre, what is the basis of rock n' roll?

BLUES. As for Afican -American musicians and guitarists, Chuck Berry, Jimi Hendrix and the list goes on. So Afican grooves have had a big impact and influence on BLues, Jazz, Soul, Rock, Son, Cumbia, Merengue, Rumba, "Salsa" etc.

My statement is more influence based and where it comes from versus the color of one's skin. Aa person of Asian descent or Polish descent can be influenced by certain music as for example: Brazilan music (which has a strong Affro influece) and can exert that on bass, drums, keys, guitar andf other instruments...it's how the musician connects to his or her audience not THE COLOR HIS OR HER SKIN.

Nothing I actually said contradicts your post.
 
Yes, but cultural norms have embedded themselves into certain races. But why did Africans put so much emphasis on rhythm and it's intoxicating influence? If you go back a few thousand years, why weren't anglo saxon's spending their time gyrating around a rhythm section instead? Why do oriental cultures tend to focus so much on wisdom of the elders and tradition? Why have whites typically focussed on exploratory advance and world domination (regardless of the "form" it takes)?

We readily accept that certain breeds of animals have far different traits and qualities. Certain breeds of dogs are more intelligient. Some are more energetic. Others are easily angered and prone to excessive barking. Why not so for humans?

Again, why must we be forced to believe that the only difference is the color of our skin? Truth is, it isn't. Our hair is different. Our faces are different. Some of us have slanted eyes, others of us have large noses, and flared nostrils. Some of us with lighter skin are spastic in movement. Some of us are better athletes. Some of us are better at academia. That doesn't mean there aren't exceptions, and that there aren't exceptions in large numbers. But there is the tendancy.

Someone here mentioned scientific study. The problem with that is that anytime someone embarks on such a study, they are quickly demonized as bigots with an agenda, and their work is thrown out completely. I understand the fear, but let's get beyond that and just find out what the truth is.


Your second excellent post in this thread thus far. Unfortunately I expect you should shortly be labeled a bigot by many who read your posts.


IMO there have been several other excellent replies. I am astounded at the "exceptions" and the south park "data" presented by the OP.
 
Ha i think you all are taking this way farther than it was supposed to go. He stated at the beginning of the post that its not meant to be racial or anything, right from the start. So if you made a comment about this being racist, stop reading now or go back and edit ur post, because hes not being racist. He basically stating something that he saw, his opinion, and you cant criticize someone elses opinion, because its what THEY think not what YOU think. As for what i say about it, SOMETIMES i can distinguish btw a black and white bassist, but not too often, it all depends on the style of music, and the way teh person was raised. The singer in my band was raised listening to almost strictly sould music, so he has a very soulful voice, more soulful than most white singers ive heard. (and by the way, i use black and white freely, thats what we are, not speciaifclaly the color black and the color white, but when someone uses the terms, you know what theyre talking about, so its strictly for identification purposes not being racist. IM black, im not african american, im not from africa). I personally, have had this specic conversation in depth, but with drummers. We had a group of drummers, and I was able to distinguish btw the black and the white drummers. They played the exact same thing, all were exceptional drummers, but the feel was slightly diff. Neither drummer was better or worse than the other, that was just how it happened. There can be differences, doesnt mean that one race is better or grooves harded, because thats usually never the case, but its strictly a difference, diff people feel and express things in different ways, and thats why music has been around so long and hasnt gotten boring, because everyone has their diff way of expressing it, and we have to accept it. My two cents
 
Not all sub-saharans africans are black
and how do you know a black person in america is living there?
:smug:

:rolleyes: Funny guy. The ancestors of those individuals referred to as black are from south of the Sahara, that is were those ethnic groups -- I'm not gonna list 'em all -- originated. Any yeah, I know there are the British (Anglos, Irish, Scottish), Afrikaners, Germans, Portuguese, and some Indians and a few East Asians here and there but I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about the ethnic groups that originated in Africa.

And to all those people who are gonna say it, please don't start saying we all originate from the same place. Cause maybe 100,000 years ago the ancestors of modern humanity did, but that hasn't been the case in a long time.

(I may have the date wrong.:D)