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Bassists Are Their Own Worst Enemies

#21
JimmyM said:
http://www.notreble.com/buzz/2012/08/31/going-unnoticed-our-role-as-bassists-or-the-not-so-obvious-compliment/?fb_comment_id=fbc_298263503614069_1430029_298776280229458#f364db5ce92f3f8

You never see a group of musicians more interested in oppressing themselves than bassists. How many times do you see bassists on here pontificating on how awesome they are because they play simply? How many times do you see bassists on here pontificating on how you shouldn't use effects? How many times do you see bassists on here pontificating on how you shouldn't use more than 4 strings? And God forbid you do anything except play straight fingerstyle!

These are usually the same noodniks who, when asked who their favorite bassists are, they'll name off any number of bassists who stand out in their bands and play flashy...Jaco, Jack (both Bruce and Casady), Jamerson, Vic, Marcus, Rocco, Stanley...but YOU should shut up and play simply. And when you do shut up and play simply, they will villify you for it and call you a "hack."

And inevitably, they will resort to the two most meaningless phrases in music today: "lock in" and "groove":

"Lock in"? Oh, do you mean keep good time? Yeah, I'll do that. Everybody should no matter what instrument you play. Doesn't mean I'm going to follow the drummer's every move. I might even play something diametrically opposed to what the drummer's doing. But it'll sound good, and if it doesn't, I'll try something else till it does. You shouldn't have to play along with the bass drum in lockstep just because you heard some famous bass player use the phrase "lock in with the kick." Go listen to a dude like Jamerson run amok all over the drums and tell me that doesn't sound good. Kick schmick...be a little creative.

As for "groove," that's a word that just makes me ill every time I see it used. Like it's the only thing any bassist should aspire to grasp. What if the music you're playing isn't danceable? What if the music you're playing is written in alternating bars of 7/4 and 6/8? You're going to groove to that? Good luck. Groove when it's appropriate. But if you get called to record someone's speed metal tunes and you play them like it's a groove, don't expect to hear your tracks when the album comes out.

I'm always amused by this story I once heard from a bassist. I'll leave out names because I'm sure he's not the only one who had an experience like this. He said that in his local scene, there was one guy that all the other bass players goofed on for overplaying. They all "respected the groove" and "knew their roles" and this guy didn't. The bassist in question went on to be a very well-respected jazz guy who works all the time and tours the world with top people in the field, and he was the only one in their clique to have a big career.

Don't get me wrong here, though. I'm not telling you to start going crazy and making everything all about the bass. Everyone has to find their own voice, and if your voice is simple support and not being noticed, that's cool. Just don't let other bass players define it for you. You don't have to go unnoticed, and it can often sound really good if you don't. And as for those bass players who would like to define your role as they see fit, their role in my world is shutting the hell up ;)
Click to expand...

I like the cut of your jib sir.
 
#22
And talk about opening a can of worms.

When I started playing the bass I immediately was drawn to the stand out players. Stanley Clarke, Jaco, Geddy Lee, Jerry Peek, Geezer Butler, Jack Bruce. That, thankfully, evolved into Marcus Miller, Victor Wooten, Bob Daisley, Billy Sheehan and I say 'thankfully' because I moved forward with the times. I was never interested in the "straight line groove" players, I can do that all day.

The frustration with the "modern music" scene, which in my opinion has not really evolved, is the fact, as bass players, we are ignored. That applies to ability and volume. How many of you have gone through this, It applies more to an open jam situation? You get on stage, the guitar player turns to you, plays four notes on his guitar and says "You do that", then further insults you by trading solos with himself, keyboard and maybe a harp player. The bass is as much a solo instrument, as demonstrated by the pioneers. When someone tries to do this to me, I look them in the eye and say "tell me the key and the tempo...I will take it from there". I find myself with musicians who have not left the 60's when it comes to music and basic professional attitude. So, if the bass is heard or not is really no concern for them.

Here on this forum I have watched persons disparage the playing abilities of Victor and Les. Which is so destructive when it comes to evolvement of the instrument as a whole. Whether it be jealously over ability or unable to grow, within ones own talent it does not help to be negative towards someone who stands out. A bass player who is upfront and aggressive is put down by other players (including bass players) as "over playing" and will get grief from guitar players who may not want to share the spotlight. Whatever style you chose to emulate does not mean you have to be a "hum in the background player".

To put it in perspective for me was when I posted a video on youtube. Now I was checking out an Alembic and with an Iphone did an impromptu two minute video. The two minutes was nothing more than a bunch of fretboard gymnastics. Another bass player made disparaging comments and ended with a statement towards "grooving". Now, keep in mind I did not post it as a 'groove' video or state it as such. So I checked his posts and all he had up there was rudimentary playing that I learned in my first two years of playing. Now, I had nothing negative to say about his video, it worked for the situation. But why, try, to put a pock on my talent because, a two minute video, doesn't fit his ideals of bass playing??

We, as bass players, need to stop bashing on each other when it comes to style. It might not be what you would do, doesn't make it improper.
 
#23
Bob C said:
Why is serving the song a load of crap?
Click to expand...
Thanks for asking. I think it is a load of crap first because I only hear that line when someone is justifying why someone else should play a simple bass line; and second of all who gives you (the generic you, not you specifically) the right to decide how the song should be served? If you think it should be served with a simple bass line and I think it should be served with a complex bass line, how do we decide who is serving the song correctly? How is serve the song any different that playing the music the way you think it should be played. And isn't that what we are already doing? Does anyone play something bad on purpose?

EDIT:

See post 20 where Jimmy answers it better than me.
 
#24
Serve the song? There is nobody on this planet who serves the song better than Lee Sklar. Last I saw, he was one of the most recorded bassists in the world. I guess being the master of the whole note works for him.
And... what many dont know is he can burn with any Jaco or Victor if he chooses. I've seen him solo and my jaw dropped.
I'll stick to serving the song.. it gets me all the gigs I need. Crap? I dont think so.
 
#25
Marty Forrer said:
Serve the song? There is nobody on this planet who serves the song better than Lee Sklar. Last I saw, he was one of the most recorded bassists in the world. I guess being the master of the whole note works for him.
And... what many dont know is he can burn with any Jaco or Victor if he chooses. I've seen him solo and my jaw dropped.
I'll stick to serving the song.. it gets me all the gigs I need. Crap? I dont think so.
Click to expand...
Nothing at all wrong with that if that's how you feel you're best presenting yourself. However, lfmn makes a point...that's almost always what someone means when they tell you "serve the song."

And Cookye, brilliant reply and pretty much what I was getting at.
 
#26
JimmyM said:
Nothing at all wrong with that if that's how you feel you're best presenting yourself. However, lfmn makes a point...that's almost always what someone means when they tell you "serve the song."
Click to expand...

The bass is a musical instrument. It is not, as I have seen some claim, a "critical support role" nor should a bassist with chops hide in the back because somehow that's not "serving the song."

You're dead-on right Jimmy. The buzzwords get old, the arrogant sneering on anyone who plays something other than a Fender P with 15-year-old flats gets old, and lots of times here I read a thread and have nothing to say because it's tiresome to repeat to people over and over again that if you can play something, you should.

People who try to play flashy without any understanding of where they are going or why are wankers. People who play nimbly and high up on the fretboard because they're good at it are musicians, who are doing what they have practiced. Telling people that they should lay back and vanish into the mix is basically telling them don't ever bother trying to be heard.

I dunno about anybody else, but I play to be heard.
 
#27
I've also noticed an extremely snide attitude towards any sort of woodshedding type musician from pro gig type guys. "Oh look at that nerd, he must spend his entire day in his parents basement practicing, while I'm getting paid to play at parties."

Just because someone owns and plays an instrument doesnt mean they have to play out and gig....just like how not every car owner also goes racing, not every bicycle owner goes to the xgames, etc etc.
 
#28
In the late 90s I was handed a residency in a jazz club. There was a bass player there. He was a better player and musician than I will ever be. He played melodic lines using the full arsenal of harmonics, chords, double stops, and to my ear he was always in time and interesting to watch and listen to.
The group, who were all in the top echelon of jazzers in that city, approached me and said "we need a BASS player" . Next week it was me up on the stand.... outlining the changes, keeping the time...... serving the song... soloing when it was given to me.
Moral of the story... what works for you, and that interesting bass player, doesn't necessarily work for everyone. Me? I'll keep "serving the song" thanks.
 
#32
It IS an interesting thread, and shows how diverse we all are, thank goodness. I just read another thread about a fellow kiwi using effects on upright. I'm quite sure that idea would draw a lot of reactionary remarks from upright players.
Myself, I like the term "groove" because to me it defines a feeling that seems hard to put into words without writing a whole paragraph. It's not just about keeping good time, or "the lock", it's about two people becoming as one, and the term "groove" seems like a simple explanation of it.
 
#34
What if the bass guitar was the special instrument capable of holding down groove, harmony, melody, counterpoint, and soloing? What if bass players were slowly evolving how to play the instrument which is less than a 100 years old? What if traditionalist were unsure how to incorporate the different levels of playing the electric bass in the 21st century because of fear and lack of comprehension? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm? Next thing you know people won't buy albums, won't listen to one genre of music at a time, drive electric cars, we will have a minority president, and star in tv shows that aren't about anything featuring people who aren't actors.


Wait for it............wait for it......
 
#35
I undersatnd and agree with what you say. It's well thought out and worded!!!! Playing the bass is like reading the Bilbe... There are so many ways to view it, but we must do whats right for ourselves. 4,5 or 6. Effects, fingers, picks. Its all for the love, enjoyment and self gratification of being a bassist. Groove or flashy. Its a feeling we all have. Being set apart is what makes a bassist.
 
#36
Great post. I've been wondering about the narrow-mindedness of the bass community ever since I joined it. Everything revolves around Fender, funk, jazz and classical rock. And the god-awful dogmatic hero cult of about a dozen bass legends (nobody tells all guitarists to play like Hendrix or Clapton, as a comparison)...
 
#38
I probably have a botched view of what would constitute a "groove", but I've always used the term to describe a bassline that has either unique timing or is rather busy with the notes, but pushes the melody in a musical. FWIW, I think our "groove" is the equivalent of the guitard's "riff". It's a catchy set of notes that can push a song and make people remember the tune. YMMV.
 
#39
JimmyM said:
http://www.notreble.com/buzz/2012/0...14069_1430029_298776280229458#f364db5ce92f3f8

You never see a group of musicians more interested in oppressing themselves than bassists. How many times do you see bassists on here pontificating on how awesome they are because they play simply? How many times do you see bassists on here pontificating on how you shouldn't use effects? How many times do you see bassists on here pontificating on how you shouldn't use more than 4 strings? And God forbid you do anything except play straight fingerstyle!

These are usually the same noodniks who, when asked who their favorite bassists are, they'll name off any number of bassists who stand out in their bands and play flashy...Jaco, Jack (both Bruce and Casady), Jamerson, Vic, Marcus, Rocco, Stanley...but YOU should shut up and play simply. And when you do shut up and play simply, they will villify you for it and call you a "hack."

And inevitably, they will resort to the two most meaningless phrases in music today: "lock in" and "groove":

"Lock in"? Oh, do you mean keep good time? Yeah, I'll do that. Everybody should no matter what instrument you play. Doesn't mean I'm going to follow the drummer's every move. I might even play something diametrically opposed to what the drummer's doing. But it'll sound good, and if it doesn't, I'll try something else till it does. You shouldn't have to play along with the bass drum in lockstep just because you heard some famous bass player use the phrase "lock in with the kick." Go listen to a dude like Jamerson run amok all over the drums and tell me that doesn't sound good. Kick schmick...be a little creative.

As for "groove," that's a word that just makes me ill every time I see it used. Like it's the only thing any bassist should aspire to grasp. What if the music you're playing isn't danceable? What if the music you're playing is written in alternating bars of 7/4 and 6/8? You're going to groove to that? Good luck. Groove when it's appropriate. But if you get called to record someone's speed metal tunes and you play them like it's a groove, don't expect to hear your tracks when the album comes out.

I'm always amused by this story I once heard from a bassist. I'll leave out names because I'm sure he's not the only one who had an experience like this. He said that in his local scene, there was one guy that all the other bass players goofed on for overplaying. They all "respected the groove" and "knew their roles" and this guy didn't. The bassist in question went on to be a very well-respected jazz guy who works all the time and tours the world with top people in the field, and he was the only one in their clique to have a big career.

Don't get me wrong here, though. I'm not telling you to start going crazy and making everything all about the bass. Everyone has to find their own voice, and if your voice is simple support and not being noticed, that's cool. Just don't let other bass players define it for you. You don't have to go unnoticed, and it can often sound really good if you don't. And as for those bass players who would like to define your role as they see fit, their role in my world is shutting the hell up ;)
Click to expand...

God bless you!

While I try my best to technically play bass appropriate the more i work on my own material the more i realize i can play it any darn way I want. It's my music and no one elses.

Maybe i'm being too broad here,taking a leap without thinking of the consequences,but sometimes I think (and I guess you could apply this to any instrument),we as players get hung up too much on what has worked and not thinking of what "could" work.

I think in the end no matter how busy or how low key whatever your playing has to serve the song and if their's more than one interpertation of that so be it.
 

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