Bassists Are Their Own Worst Enemies

[air_leech]

Did you actually read the post, and the replies, or are you being purposefully obtuse? He isn't in any way saying players like Jamerson or Palladino are lazy...in fact those are perfect examples of players that I have heard people here on TB characterize as too busy, wankerish, and overplaying. If you give a concentrated listen to, or look at transcriptions of Jamerson, you'll see his lines a very "full of notes"...far far more than the normal root-V the "groovers" demand, and all kinds of sixteenth notes on the upbeats and off the 1. Pino is so identified with the term "melodic bass player" that his name might as well be synonymous with it...and uh-oh here he is playing a (gasp!) bass solo with very fast runs:


Those guys have spent many many many hours in the woodshed and on gigs, perfecting their technique, groove, theory, melodic understanding...and chops. Both of them also pushed the boundaries forward in their genres in terms of what is acceptable as a "bass player." They didn't simply look at what was acceptable as a "bass player" by others and accept that as their only limited role.

The point I'm getting from Jimmy' post is that if you try to sit around characterizing what "is" and "isn't" bass playing, then you're simply limiting yourself and others.

I read the post, I can agree with some of it but I can't agree with the part, and the other replies in this thread, which looks down at concepts such as "serving the song", "playing less notes is mature", "grooving", "locking in" etc. etc.

let's face it - most songs in popular music wouldn't sound better with bass being the lead instrument and a hugh space between the melody and the beat where the bass was supposed to be.
there's a reason Victor Wooten, Jaco, Richard Bona or <insert your favourite bass hero here> aren't or were'nt called to do session work on anything that you may actually hear in the radio.

no, I don't think there's room for modal soloing or tapping in Country basslines, if you feel you can execute that in a way that would complement the song - go for it, don't do it out of some inferiority complex.

overplaying is something I hear a lot from immature musicians and a simple less notes approach doesn't mean oversimplified or dumbed down basslines (Sting's work with the Police comes to my mind).
serving the song is pretty much what any great bassist from Jack Bruce to Nate Watts to Flea does IMO.
some songs sound badass with dominant bass and some call for a more supportive role, limiting yourself to one isn't any better than sticking exclusively to the other.

 

[younggun]

I read the post, I can agree with some of it but I can't agree with the part, and the other replies in this thread, which looks down at concepts such as "serving the song", "playing less notes is mature", "grooving", "locking in" etc. etc.

let's face it - most songs in popular music wouldn't sound better with bass being the lead instrument and a hugh space between the melody and the beat where the bass was supposed to be.
there's a reason Victor Wooten, Jaco, Richard Bona or <insert your favourite bass hero here> aren't or were'nt called to do session work on anything that you may actually hear in the radio.

no, I don't think there's room for modal soloing or tapping in Country basslines, if you feel you can execute that in a way that would complement the song - go for it, don't do it out of some inferiority complex.

overplaying is something I hear a lot from immature musicians and a simple less notes approach doesn't mean oversimplified or dumbed down basslines (Sting's work with the Police comes to my mind).
serving the song is pretty much what any great bassist from Jack Bruce to Nate Watts to Flea does IMO.
some songs sound badass with dominant bass and some call for a more supportive role, limiting yourself to one isn't any better than sticking exclusively to the other.

Nobody said that serving the song was wrong. Let's repeat...nobody said serving the song was wrong. Nobody is saying to play inappropriate tapping, slapping chords etc. BUT there are times, MANY times, depending on YOUR music of choice that those things are completely appropriate. Its too bad that so many think music only means "popular" music or "what's on the radio." Thankfully though, there are a plenty of listeners and musicians alike out there, that could give a rat's booty about what's on the radio or playing for it.

Mark King, Victor Wooten, Michael Manring, Jaco, Hadrien Feraud, (insert highly technically and harmonically advanced bassists here) are/were perfectly capable of doing session work. They simply chose to follow a different genre and style of music and all are doing fantastically well at it too...IOW they don't need the session work. Those type of guys pretty much have all the work they want, pack venues, have legions of fans, and travel the world playing their stuff. Why would they sit around playing somebody else's basslines for commercial work that's far below their skill level, or interests, when they're making a very good living off of being known for what a fantastic musician they are in their OWN right? Seems to me they are all must be doing something right and "serving the song" of their own muse.
You list Flea as a great bassist because he "serves the song"...does he do session work? Is he getting the call for country gigs or commercial jingles? Not that he couldn't do those things, but why would he? Plus I'm not so sure you'd call what he does as "simple" basslines all the time. Imagine that...he does what's appropriate, even when slapping at 100 miles an hour.
The simple fact of the matter is most bass players out there (especially on TB) use catch phrases like "serving the song" "keeping to your role" "holding the groove" etc. to justify slamming what others choose to do. They are simply limiting themselves and trying (for whatever reason) to lock others into that same mode of thinking and/or their own opinion about what sounds "good".
Understanding rhythm, harmonic structure, and being able to lock in with the rhythm section are the BASICS of being a bass player. EVERY bass player should learn to do those things as part of their craft, and no one is arguing any different. If that's what folks want to do with their entire life on the bass, no problem. Its not right, its not wrong, but it IS a fact that by choosing not to go beyond the basics, they have limited themselves in some manner. That's fine, that's their choice...just leave the judgement of others further and more advance musical exploration at home.

Victor Wooten et al. can "groove" "serve the song" and "play simply" just like any other player, anytime they like, however; on the flip side most other players can't play what those high level players play...at least not without putting in the work. There lies the difference. Again, not saying that's a good thing or bad thing...it just IS. Ultimately its art, and art goes beyond craft, and most of what we're arguing about is craft.

 

[JimmyM]

to me players like Jamerson and Palladino are exemplary of what I perceive as "serving the song" and "grooving".

happens that they don't play a ton of notes, they don't do 64th runs, they don't burst into melodic 3 minute solos, they don't slap or tap - strictily fingerstyle and they don't play multi stringed basses so how would the OP categorize them? lazy? underachieving?

LOL! Jamerson and Pino are two examples I'd use of bassists stretching boundaries and not always sticking to the "role."

 

[Showdown]

I see the players that like to play a lot of notes here get their feelings hurt when someone suggests playing for the song, but then they turn around and use denigrating terms like "root/fifth players". What I am seeing from both sides is a lack of respect for the other side. If you want to get respect you have to give respect, and I'm not seeing much respect from either side.

Sad. I thought bass players were better than that.

The truth is that you are both right - and you are both wrong. There is a time and place for every type of playing, and anyone that limits themselves to one style or the other is just hurting themselves. Just my two cents.

 

[Showdown]

LOL! Jamerson and Pino are two examples I'd use of bassists stretching boundaries and not always sticking to the "role."

Jameson could rip it up, but he could also lay down a simple groove. Listen to "Dancing In The Streets", he stays on the root the whole song. Then listen to "for Once in My Life", he never sits still. It is not about choosing a style then sticking to it, it is about what suits the song.

 

[younggun]

I see the players that like to play a lot of notes here get their feelings hurt when someone suggests playing for the song, but then they turn around and use denigrating terms like "root/fifth players". What I am seeing from both sides is a lack of respect for the other side. If you want to get respect you have to give respect, and I'm not seeing much respect from either side.

Sad. I thought bass players were better than that.

The truth is that you are both right - and you are both wrong. There is a time and place for every type of playing, and anyone that limits themselves to one style or the other is just hurting themselves. Just my two cents.

"Root-V player" and "simple player" is no more a denigrating term than "players who like to play a lot of notes" or "notey players" etc. Relax with the PC stuff, they're just descriptive terms and not meant to denigrate anyone...in fact most of the posts (and much of the point of the entire thread) is that its perfectly acceptable to play BOTH ways. But the folks who like to take their music into the more "notey" or "technique oriented" approach are tired of the attitude that its somehow not acceptable to do so.

The complaint is not that there are players who like to play root-V, the complaint is about those root-V'ers who think its the ONLY way to play, and aren't shy about telling others so.
That's a big distinction.

Sad. I thought bass players were better than that.

Have you actually read a thread on TB before? hahaha

 

[phillybass101]

Sounds like some of us have anger issues and self esteem issues. James Jamerson Grooves, plain and simple. I happen to be a FUNK and R&B and Smooth Jazz bass player and being able to play in the pocket and being able to groove are essentail traits of being a FUNK, R&B, and Smooth Jazz Bass Player. I think some of us don't know what being in the pocket or grooving is. It's like Victor Wooten says, you can't groove if you ain't got no pocket. Wow. a lot of hating going on. I'd say if you want to rip it up, stand out, and be up front play a lead instrument you'll be much happier. Might I suggest lead guitar or maybe saxaphone. I'm a laid back, confident sort of dude and playing bass and understanding the role of bass in music fits me. If I wanted to stand out and rip it up and be recognized for my shredding I would have chosen another instrument as my voice. What we have to realize is that in FUNK, R&B, and to a degree Smooth Jazz the bass is already out front. You are expected to be competent, and have chops and know how and when to use them. Jamerson is not ripping it up, he's serving it up and still maintaining the groove and the pocket.

In the end it's diferent strokes for different folks. I don't hate on super bass players or cats with monster chops and never have. It IMO depends on the type of music you like, listen to, and in the end want to play. There are some cats who can do it all. and many who can't. Even though I am a groove player who likes to play in the pocket I know and recognize this is not the only way to play bass and will never knock another musician in how they express themselves nor dictate to them how to or criticize them. I've never been a hater. We all play bass and I love bass period.

 

[SoVeryTired]

It's like Victor Wooten says, you can't groove if you ain't got no pocket.

I usually have four - five, if you count that small one on the right hand side that serves no real purpose. Therefore I groove. Hard.

 

[phillybass101]

LOL! Jamerson and Pino are two examples I'd use of bassists stretching boundaries and not always sticking to the "role."

I'd put it this way. They have helped contribute to defining the role(s). remember, the electric bass was new to popular music when Jamerson started playing it. He was an upright player at first. Even so, both are examples of two styles of how the bass can be played. They are not the end nor the only way.

 

[TigerInATrance]

I usually have four - five, if you count that small one on the right hand side that serves no real purpose. Therefore I groove. Hard.

That little one is where you keep your picks... Perfect size, and everyone knows that picks are better for groove...

 

[João Bourgard]

there a huge diference between a bassist and a bass player in my book...

 

[phillybass101]

A groovin bass line played with a pic is awesome. check out the song called Easy Loving You by the funk group Slave. Funk Pic bass for your face.

 

[SoVeryTired]

That little one is where you keep your picks... Perfect size, and everyone knows that picks are better for groove...

No, it's too fiddly to get picks out of there (and can look a little... questionable). The best pocket for picks for bass (for metal) is the right back pocket. Easy access, no-one sees you doing it and it's immediately in the correct hand for playing.

(reverse for lefties)

 

[younggun]

Yeah but see, here is what I don't understand:

You say this:

In the end it's diferent strokes for different folks. I don't hate on super bass players or cats with monster chops and never have. It IMO depends on the type of music you like, listen to, and in the end want to play. There are some cats who can do it all.

But the paragraph before you say this:

I'd say if you want to rip it up, stand out, and be up front play a lead instrument you'll be much happier. Might I suggest lead guitar or maybe saxaphone.

Why is ripping it up, being up front, and standing out, a role that should only be relegated to certain instruments? If you don't want to do that, and prefer to keep a certain predetermined role on the bass for yourself, again that's 100% fine...but why do you "suggest lead guitar or sax" for someone else who doesn't want to stay in that role as a bass musician? Its obviously an underlying attitude that I don't get, and there's always the snide comments like "go play guitar" (as if a good guitarist couldn't hold down a groove either), even when talking about obvious high level kats like Wooten.

 

[aborgman]

You never see a group of musicians more interested in oppressing themselves than bassists. How many times do you see bassists on here pontificating on how awesome they are because they play simply? How many times do you see bassists on here pontificating on how you shouldn't use effects? How many times do you see bassists on here pontificating on how you shouldn't use more than 4 strings? And God forbid you do anything except play straight fingerstyle!

These are usually the same noodniks who, when asked who their favorite bassists are, they'll name off any number of bassists who stand out in their bands and play flashy...Jaco, Jack (both Bruce and Casady), Jamerson, Vic, Marcus, Rocco, Stanley...but YOU should shut up and play simply.

To me that falls in the same vein as:

Aretha Franklin: sing all you want
American Idol reject: shut up.

My problem with most folks playing flashy stuff isn't the flashy stuff - it's that they aren't good at it, it doesn't fit the song, and it sounds like crap.

 

[aborgman]

Thanks for asking. I think it is a load of crap first because I only hear that line when someone is justifying why someone else should play a simple bass line; and second of all who gives you (the generic you, not you specifically) the right to decide how the song should be served? If you think it should be served with a simple bass line and I think it should be served with a complex bass line, how do we decide who is serving the song correctly?

The player decides who is serving the song correctly by playing what they want.

The listener decides who is serving the song correctly by buying CDs, attending shows, etc... or not.

How is serve the song any different that playing the music the way you think it should be played. And isn't that what we are already doing? Does anyone play something bad on purpose?

No, but some musicians have a much higher opinion of their own subjective taste than they should... it's why producers exist.

 

[JimmyM]

Yeah but see, here is what I don't understand:

You say this:



But the paragraph before you say this:



Why is ripping it up, being up front, and standing out, a role that should only be relegated to certain instruments? If you don't want to do that, and prefer to keep a certain predetermined role on the bass for yourself, again that's 100% fine...but why do you "suggest lead guitar or sax" for someone else who doesn't want to stay in that role as a bass musician? Its obviously an underlying attitude that I don't get, and there's always the snide comments like "go play guitar" (as if a good guitarist couldn't hold down a groove either), even when talking about obvious high level kats like Wooten.

You took the words out of my mouth!

 

[RedMoses]

"Rocco" is NOT flashy...

 

[Doug Parent]

subbed

 

[sigmafloyd]

I agree with you wholeheartedly on this one JimmyM. I think the whole 'it's a lot harder to play something simple than it is something flashy' is a crutch. Yes, overplaying is a rookie mistake. But most people on a national level that are playing their bass in a band as a 'lead' role have progressed to the point that they realize this. To me, the perfect bass player is one that is a strong voice in the band but knows when and where to flourish. You need to still play a supportive role in some situations just as every other instrument does. If a guitar player plays chords during the verse it isn't him 'keepin' it in the pocket and being mature', that's just how music and dynamics work.

Where I personally draw the line though, is with bands that are ALL about the bass player. Lets be honest, if you have a signature Fodera bass named after you, your music is probably geared towards other bass players. There are exceptions, sure, but I don't think most people want to hear an all bass album, or an album where a lot of the melodies are played on bass. That being said, I feel pretty much the same way about albums that are ALL about one guitar player (i.e. Hendrix). It just gets to be one note after awhile. I like good bands, not one guy out front and the rest in the backseat.