Bassists Are Their Own Worst Enemies

[Definitely]

I'm definitely a Tigger. I'm the same as Geddy many times, where I feel that nobody will appreciate what I do unless I do it fast and melodic. Non musicians (non bassists for that matter) don't get how tough it is to keep perfect time and adapt with the drummer to any changes in rhythm. They do, however, stop and stare when you whip out Classical Thump or even YYZ.

I was in an L&M one day and saw this guy intensely into this groove he was playing, using a $1,000+ Ibanez through a GK MB500 through a couple GK Neo cabs (IIRC). The store was fairly busy for a music store, and I walked around for a little while, listening to this guy, and he was great!! Of course, that was to me. It was a fairly simple pattern, but he played it well and in perfect time and had some awesome tones coming out I that setup. He gets up and walks to some other part of the store, and I sit down and plug a Squier Jazz (not sure which series) into a Fender Rumble 15. Turn a couple dials, eh it sounds pretty good, start YYZ. I played the main sections of YYZ, not even the solos, and in that time I had no less than five people stop and watch me and give me a thumbs up. It was just because of the material.

And I love the sound of a steady guitar and bass riff when the bass all of a sudden jumps out of pattern and plays the melody ascending up the neck, gets me every time.

 

[shrimpflea]

Each to their own and everything, but I don't get it either. Why would you put hours and hours of work into something just to be totally anonymous..? I mean yeah, engineers and the like do tend to go unnoticed, but then they don't get up in front of hundreds/thousands of people in a public forum to do their thing

A good point....but I don't want to be totally anonymous...I just don't like being "out front"....I just prefer to be in the background holding it down...doing my thing.

 

[shrimpflea]

Not at all! I'm all about finding your own way and your own voice. If that's to play simply and be in the background, hey, Cliff Williams. And there are times where I'm even taking a backseat role to the other guys in the band as well I'm just saying it doesn't have to be like that for those who don't want to follow that path.

Oh good...I feel better now.

 

[ChuckTrucks]

I have been playing guitar for 20 years and bass for about half of that but only seriously for a short time.

I decided to get on this forum to read some things.

I get the same idea in this forum that I have seen in other forums which is that people like to pigeon-hole themselves into a... hole regarding what can be used for what and what you "gotta do" to please the (forum?) masses or else you are wrong.

I would hate to be a beginning musician and go to any forum and try to make sense of it all. I'm glad I started to play before the internet was much of anything.

I don't think all that many bassists put stock into the buzzwords.

So I agree that bass players should be more open to themselves and finding out what they like before they listen to or read anyone else's the opinion.

It would be different if we were all the same.

Why is theory called theory when its kind of... a fact? Im sure theres a proper reason but I like to think because the music is open to the musicians discovery.

 

[TRichardsbass]

Well Jimmy, here I go, and you know which school I'm of.

How you play, and what you play is situation specific. The need and opportunity to tear it up in a jazz setting clearly is more appropriate then trying to play Eddie Van Halen like bass over "I Want to Hold Your Hand."

How one distinguishes himself or herself is clearly individual. However a great bass player, in my opinion is clearly felt and moving in a song. Jack Casady could really tear it up, as we hear all over Bless Its Pointed Little Head, a live album like few others. But his bass line in the recorded version of White Rabbit is basic, simple, and makes the song.

Jamerson was a jazz cat deep down, and his lines do push the envelope and move them all over. But, some of his biggest hits and most notable basslines are the simple ones. Pick about any bassline he plays with Mary Wells, like My Guy, and its pretty simple.

Carol Kaye, who can jam with the best, always highlights her bassline in the Beat Goes On as one of her best. Heck, even this old eighth note pedaling punk bassist can groove that one.

If I put myself anywhere, I"d say I"m for congruence. If you are in a straight I-IV-V blues band, you need not bring your 7 string Conklin to play and only play the middle 4 strings. However, if you are in a cool, jazz fusion improv group, pulling out the upper register in cool ways is definitely a necessity.

Having said all that, I guess Roy V. would put me in the Eyeore category....

 

[Handyman]

"Lock in"? Oh, do you mean keep good time? Yeah, I'll do that. Everybody should no matter what instrument you play. Doesn't mean I'm going to follow the drummer's every move. I might even play something diametrically opposed to what the drummer's doing. But it'll sound good, and if it doesn't, I'll try something else till it does. You shouldn't have to play along with the bass drum in lockstep just because you heard some famous bass player use the phrase "lock in with the kick." Go listen to a dude like Jamerson run amok all over the drums and tell me that doesn't sound good. Kick schmick...be a little creative.

Couldn't agree more. Being locked in all the time, every time can get boring and monotonous.

Jamerson, was of course, brilliant. He could do "in the pocket" better than anyone, which made the time he spent running crazy sound all the more interesting. Contrast can be a really powerful tool.

 

[sobie18]

I have to admit that I was a little scared when I read the thread title..I thought I was gonna be chastised for not playing a such & such bass with TI flats through a 1lb head and a 1/3" flytanium cabinet...

You made a lot of great points and there's great advice strewn all throughout this thread. As we grow, we mature as players and play what we feel to be the right or correct lines to/for the song. You have to know when to lay it down, when to keep grounded, when to play busy, when to sit on whole notes, and also know when to step out there and slay a few faces.

Good rapport...keep it up!

 

[TigerInATrance]

I can think of a lot of songs with very prominent and "noticable" basslines that disagrees with this.

There is nothing wrong with doing what works.
In the case of bass and bass lines, what works the best is going unnoticed.
There is nothing restrictive or self depricating in this statement and it works in a lot of areas other than music.
Coders, engineers, interface designers will tell you that their work should go unnoticed and that simpler is usually better.
Even scientists tend to think so. Occam's razor doesn't say anything else.

Music has nothing in common with any of those things. Bass players, by and large, are the only musicians out there who seem to subscribe to the idea that they should be, to use your example, a background script keeping the processor sorted out. It's music. It's art. It's supposed to be noticed. Especially the low end which has the potential to really communicate. Yes, there are times when that means a subdued part, but it also means that the subdued part needs something big and shiny in another spot to convey the dynamic.

Music is not something for the background. Music is art. Art is something to be noticed. Be noticed. Be an artist.

 

[PlungerModerno]

Music has nothing in common with any of those things. Bass players, by and large, are the only musicians out there who seem to subscribe to the idea that they should be, to use your example, a background script keeping the processor sorted out. It's music. It's art. It's supposed to be noticed. Especially the low end which has the potential to really communicate. Yes, there are times when that means a subdued part, but it also means that the subdued part needs something big and shiny in another spot to convey the dynamic.

Music is not something for the background. Music is art. Art is something to be noticed. Be noticed. Be an artist.

Yes. +1,000.

To say bass is to be a backing instrument only is about as rational as saying blue should only be used to paint the sky in landscape painting.
They're bizarre and arbitrary restrictions that may happen to apply to successful compositions / configurations. . . but as a hard rule - or even a rule of thumb . . . really? Makes as much sense to me as saying there should be no backing vocals...

I'm a bit of a noob - but I know sounding really really good is important for most music. For a lot of people that's in the booty-shakin' low end & rhythm as much as anywhere else.
Prominent, interesting and irresistible bass, and drums are not weakening/distracting from good vox or 'lead(LOL)' instruments they are making it better as often as not (a lot more often IMO).

 

[lfmn16]

How you play, and what you play is situation specific. The need and opportunity to tear it up in a jazz setting clearly is more appropriate then trying to play Eddie Van Halen like bass over "I Want to Hold Your Hand."

These are the easy examples. I don't think there are many advocates for playing Eddie Van Halen-like bass on an old Beatles tune or playing a strict root/5th on jazz. It's everything in between where the arguments start.

What I've noticed is that although the root/5th police (and not saying you are a member of the squad) want to quantify what is "too" busy, the players that want to push the envelope never tell the root/5th police that they have to play more. I'm not speaking for anybody but myself here, but my only issue is with other people trying to tell me what the role of the bass is. You decide for yourself, I'll decide for myself.

 

[Phil Smith]

You have to have some attitude in your playing no matter what the genre.

 

[Herrick]

What I've noticed is that although the root/5th police (and not saying you are a member of the squad) want to quantify what is "too" busy, the players that want to push the envelope never tell the root/5th police that they have to play more.

Agreed, Sir. This is what I see on this forum and Youtube videos. It's part of the "Just buy a guitar" Mentality

 

[pete rallis]

I have been playing a musical instrument of some kind since I was in the 6th grade. (a looong time ago) ..I always thought and tried my best to play my part to make the song I was playing sound good...its called being in a group, band, orchestra, and doing what makes the music sound like its supposed to..its really all about the music, or it is to me anyway..great post guys! !

 

[younggun]

I'm a bit of a noob - but I know sounding really really good is important for most music.

THAT'S what its all about (except I would have said "all music" not "most music"). I knew if I read through enough pages someone would say it succinctly.

 

[pedalguy1]

Some very great posts in this thread. I hate to see people on here let their instrument define their playing and their thought process. Remember, YOU are the musician and its YOU that chooses the notes and how you play them. Yes, the bass's traditional role was to provide more or less of a supportive role, but our electric bass is only 50 years old. We've come a long was in the short amount of time and I believe that we'll soon see bass being used in a more prominent role in music. If we look to the genres of modern music, (specifically dance), we can see that bass is often getting a lot more love in the mix of things. Overall, I feel that we shouldn't put ourselves in the corner because we play the bass. There are people out there that are pushing the limits of the instrument and creating some great music. Although there will always be purists quick to point out that someone is playing it wrong, the thing that counts is that good music that people enjoy is being created.

 

[NWB]

Jimmy, Jimmy, I'm going to have to take you to task on this one.

Wait. No, I really can't. I happen to agree completely and wholeheartedly with every word!

Just kidding on taking you to task.

I've been thinking about this very topic lately and your words spell out my thoughts more clearly than I could.

The big problem, as I see it, is that other musicians don't know how to respond or work with an "active" bass player. They are so used to working around quiet, simple lines that they are completey thrown when the bass steps out of its prescribed role.

That said, I'm of the opinion that a more active bass line actually opens things up more for the other musicians. I think "active" bass parts open up new opportunities for instrument interactions.

Serve the song? Maybe a more active bass part is just what it needs. Or not. You won't know though unless you're willing to try.

 

[Showdown]

IMO it isn't a matter of whether a bass player should play simple lines or complex ones. It is a matter of WHEN to do each. Some songs are best with a simple line, some are best with a complex line, and some are good with a mix of the two. There is a time and place for each.

Don't let anyone tell you one is always the right way.

And I have a different view of what "support the song" means than some of you. To me it means play whatever makes the song better, whether it is one note or a thousand.

The great bass players know when to play it simple and when not to. And sometimes it is in the same song.

A good example of that is James Dewar's bass line in "Too Rolling Stoned" by Robin Trower. The song is in two parts. The first part, around 3 minutes long, is kind of a fast rock where he plays a busy bass line. Then there is a pause and the second part of the song is 4:30 of a slow shuffle - and he stays on the C for the entire 4:30. One note for 4:30. And it is brilliant.

 

[xUptheIronsx]

Thanks for starting this thread. Other loads of crap - "serve the song," "play what the song calls for," "you're showing off," "I play less notes because I'm more mature." These are all ways of of some sanctimonious, self-righteous blow-hole saying, "I'll decide what is right for everyone."

I sometimes find this is also the mantra of those who don't have the ability to expand their musical/listening/grooving chops. It is a way to make them feel good about doing the minimum amount of work to be a musician.

Also being a drummer, I experience it from that side as well...probably more-so

and to add, I think that ultimately our goal as musicians should be to NOT be limiting to ourselves. The "play for the song/groove on the root" people are denying themselves the ability they might need some other time to "play what the song needs" by doing a quick little run or something technical that the group might want. On the same token, the "I must fill all available space and be in front all of the time" guy is not learning that sustain, space, and simplicity create a cool contrast that will make the "Shredding" even more cool.

My personal theory has always been "Keep all the tools in the toolbox, and be ready to use ALL of them". A good musician knows that having all abilities is the key. Right now, on bass, I can say that I have all of the abilities: slapping, (relatively) fast playing, knowledge of spatial playing, theory etc ready to go. Do I use them all of the time? No, but I HAVE them. I play mainly in a thrashy, 80's Crossover metal band right now...but also do many pit orchestra gigs. I have to have a wide variety of things ready to go. If I had ever convinced my self that "...slapping is ugly and stupid..." I would have missed out on some recent money making opportunities...

bottom line... EVERYTHING is useful when used correctly. No one element of what we do is "better" than another. It is just the placement and the context

 

[air_leech]

to me players like Jamerson and Palladino are exemplary of what I perceive as "serving the song" and "grooving".

happens that they don't play a ton of notes, they don't do 64th runs, they don't burst into melodic 3 minute solos, they don't slap or tap - strictily fingerstyle and they don't play multi stringed basses so how would the OP categorize them? lazy? underachieving?

 

[younggun]

to me players like Jamerson and Palladino are exemplary of what I perceive as "serving the song" and "grooving".

happens that they don't play a ton of notes, they don't do 64th runs, they don't burst into melodic 3 minute solos, they don't slap or tap - strictily fingerstyle and they don't play multi stringed basses so how would the OP categorize them? lazy? underachieving?

Did you actually read the post, and the replies, or are you being purposefully obtuse? He isn't in any way saying players like Jamerson or Palladino are lazy...in fact those are perfect examples of players that I have heard people here on TB characterize as too busy, wankerish, and overplaying. If you give a concentrated listen to, or look at transcriptions of Jamerson, you'll see his lines a very "full of notes"...far far more than the normal root-V the "groovers" demand, and all kinds of sixteenth notes on the upbeats and off the 1. Pino is so identified with the term "melodic bass player" that his name might as well be synonymous with it...and uh-oh here he is playing a (gasp!) bass solo with very fast runs:


Those guys have spent many many many hours in the woodshed and on gigs, perfecting their technique, groove, theory, melodic understanding...and chops. Both of them also pushed the boundaries forward in their genres in terms of what is acceptable as a "bass player." They didn't simply look at what was acceptable as a "bass player" by others and accept that as their only limited role.

The point I'm getting from Jimmy' post is that if you try to sit around characterizing what "is" and "isn't" bass playing, then you're simply limiting yourself and others.