One thing I'll add, your gear has almost nothing to do with whether or not you're a progressive player. Have an active bass with 6 strings won't make you a flashier player and there are plenty of guys that command attention with a P bass.
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Bassists Are Their Own Worst Enemies
- Thread starter JimmyM
- Start date
That's cool, and probably the best bands are usually ensembles where all the members are monsters (i.e. Weather Report)...but having said that, personally I like a lot of albums geared toward or built around a specific instrument too. You can't listen to YoYo-Ma without it being about the cello...its still freakin' bad arse too! Look at great albums by Vince Guaraldi, its all obviously geared around piano, or something by Charlie Parker, or Dave Weckle...etc. etc. My point is that its not always about getting the broadest audience or "what most people want to hear" (personally I usually don't click with the popular stuff) sometimes its about a specific audience (and sometimes its about playing for yourself). When I have a craving to hear Michael Manring go solo virtuostic nuts all over a custom made Zon I can do it, and when I want to sit back and listen to a great ensemble like Earth Wind and Fire, I can do that too!
That's the great thing about music...there's room for all of it. To me its a shame there are those that want to impose their strict limits on what is acceptable and what's not. It can make an environment that's not productive or creative. Art and music would be much the worse for it, if the creative minds always listened to those voices.
agreed. I would never say that something was unacceptable, just not my cup of tea.
99% agreed except the Hendrix part. Love him, and Mitch Mitchell made the Experience almost as much about the drums as the guitar.
Playing simple bass IS harder then playing busy...because I'm in a trio and my bandmates want me to play melodic stuff instead of just roots! Heck, it's how I got into the band in the first place.
My guitarist used to be a bassplayer in a technical metal band and is a huge prog rock fan, and my drummer is a Rush geek like me. That said, we don't play prog, it's just heavy rock with a little bit of brains in it.
My guitarist used to be a bassplayer in a technical metal band and is a huge prog rock fan, and my drummer is a Rush geek like me. That said, we don't play prog, it's just heavy rock with a little bit of brains in it.
When I hear the word "groove," I think "danceable" and "funky." Does it mean that to everyone else?
Not necessarily danceable/funky, but at least head-noddable. If that makes sense.
Like I find this very "grooving":
That said, I agree that this idea that bassists are only supposed to be a supporting kind of musician is silly.
I play what I think sounds good in the context of the musical situation I'm in. Sometimes that's simple root note stuff. Sometimes it's more complex or lead-y stuff. And it's sometimes surprising what kind of part will sound good. There aren't any hard and fast rules as to what I'm going to play.
The only rule is a highly subjective one, really. Sounds good = is good.
I don't subscribe to the idea of instruments automatically having certain roles and having to stick to those at all times. What Les Claypool does is just as valid a use of bass as what Cliff Williams does, and vice versa.
Jimmy didn't say that there was.
He was more responding to the ridiculous notion that simple is the ONLY thing we should play, which does seem pretty common. I don't know how people are interpreting that as meaning that we should never play anything simple.
I confess, I'm guilty; guilty as hell of playing to make the song work better, the band sound better, of trying not to make the music about me.
On the other hand, I wouldn't dream of suggesting to anyone that this was the only way to go.
And anyway, why should I feel oppressed? For the most part, I play loud music for people to dance to. The stuff doesn't work without electric bass. I'm indispensable!
On the other hand, I wouldn't dream of suggesting to anyone that this was the only way to go.
And anyway, why should I feel oppressed? For the most part, I play loud music for people to dance to. The stuff doesn't work without electric bass. I'm indispensable!
New to TB. Whatsup fellas? Love the topic... My 2 cents.. If we used our ears more and our egos less, we would all be better for it. Every situation is different. I tend to play busier when I'm playing with disciplined musicians that listen. If all involved are striving for the same goal, the song has room and breathes with plenty of room for everyone to express themselves without things turning into a "noodlefest". If i'm playing with busy players that have the need to fill every break, I tend to shift into a more supportive " meat and potatos" roll.. Thats just whats worked for me. Peace
I think Wayman Tisdale (RIP), Marcus Miller, Stanley Clarke, Victor Wooten, Gerald Veasley and the like would disagree. If properly done most listeners who are not musicians wouldn't know the difference.
I think Wayman Tisdale (RIP), Marcus Miller, Stanley Clarke, Victor Wooten, Gerald Veasley and the like would disagree. If properly done most listeners who are not musicians wouldn't know the difference.
Help me out here. I don't see any of those cats you listed disagreeing with what Younggun posted.
It seems to me that Younggun is right in line with the philosophies of those listed players.
Maybe I'm daft, could you explain further please?
Well, here's the thing. If EVERYONE in your band felt the same way you do, there would be nothing but an unbearable wank fest going on. Now, if you are in a band that is willing to step aside and bow down to your....... um...... skills, then that's great. But if the drummer WANTS to play what he WANTS to play, and the guitar player(s) WANT to play what they WANT to play all the time, then there is nothing there for the AUDIENCE. (Or did we forget they exist?)
Groove is every bit as much about spaces as it is about the notes that fill them. After a while, if nobody is leaving any spaces, it just becomes noise.
Even some of the heaviest metal bands do their choppy thing. The precision of the whole band playing 164th notes locked together allows for space. And it's impressive (even though I am not a big fan of the music).
Yes, there have been instances of bass players in the past who have really shown off in a song and it works. But by the same token, they weren't just playing whatever the hell they felt like playing. They have spent time writing and working everything out so the layers work together (aka "serving the song"). Chris, Geddy, Steve Harris, etc. still served the song even though they did a lot on bass. You need but listen to the songs to hear that is wasn't just a "bass show off" song. And they weren't JUST trying to draw attention to themselves. They managed to do that, but in a way that didn't stomp all over the other instruments. And none of them did it ALL THE TIME.
Seems to me that you have a bit of a chip in your shoulder. Wank about all you want. But if the AUDIENCE doesn't get it, it's bass masterbation. Who cares if the one other bass player in the room uncrosses his arrogant arms long enough to say "Wow, did you hear that"? I'm playing to the hot chicks in the front row, the guy who worked his balls off all week and just wants to celebrate, and the bar tender who would rather be at home with her kids, not the arrogant wanker wannabe standing in the back with his arms crossed.
By the way, in many kinds of music, the "groove" you (dare I say) should be in is BEHIND the kick drum, not locked in with it. Just saying.
The short version is this. It's a free country. You are free to play whatever you want. But the audience (who probably doesn't know or care how awesome you are, in reality or in your own mind) is free to not give a crap what YOU want and how many notes you can play on the off beat. They just want to hear a good song. If you can be Captain Awesome on bass all night, and still play a good song for the non musicians in the room, then you will have figured something out that none of the rest of us have. And in that case you are awesome. And I want to come see one of your shows. I could learn a lot from a guy like you.
Sorry for the long post. Best of luck with your music.
Groove is every bit as much about spaces as it is about the notes that fill them. After a while, if nobody is leaving any spaces, it just becomes noise.
Even some of the heaviest metal bands do their choppy thing. The precision of the whole band playing 164th notes locked together allows for space. And it's impressive (even though I am not a big fan of the music).
Yes, there have been instances of bass players in the past who have really shown off in a song and it works. But by the same token, they weren't just playing whatever the hell they felt like playing. They have spent time writing and working everything out so the layers work together (aka "serving the song"). Chris, Geddy, Steve Harris, etc. still served the song even though they did a lot on bass. You need but listen to the songs to hear that is wasn't just a "bass show off" song. And they weren't JUST trying to draw attention to themselves. They managed to do that, but in a way that didn't stomp all over the other instruments. And none of them did it ALL THE TIME.
Seems to me that you have a bit of a chip in your shoulder. Wank about all you want. But if the AUDIENCE doesn't get it, it's bass masterbation. Who cares if the one other bass player in the room uncrosses his arrogant arms long enough to say "Wow, did you hear that"? I'm playing to the hot chicks in the front row, the guy who worked his balls off all week and just wants to celebrate, and the bar tender who would rather be at home with her kids, not the arrogant wanker wannabe standing in the back with his arms crossed.
By the way, in many kinds of music, the "groove" you (dare I say) should be in is BEHIND the kick drum, not locked in with it. Just saying.
The short version is this. It's a free country. You are free to play whatever you want. But the audience (who probably doesn't know or care how awesome you are, in reality or in your own mind) is free to not give a crap what YOU want and how many notes you can play on the off beat. They just want to hear a good song. If you can be Captain Awesome on bass all night, and still play a good song for the non musicians in the room, then you will have figured something out that none of the rest of us have. And in that case you are awesome. And I want to come see one of your shows. I could learn a lot from a guy like you.
Sorry for the long post. Best of luck with your music.
Not sure who the 'you' is in this situation, but I think we've established that overplaying is definitely a rookie mistake. That being said, playing a lot of notes or playing something completely different than the 'traditional' role of 'bass' is not the same thing as overplaying, just a different take on bass.
If it sounds good it's good, it all depends on the context. To me, the bass part to The Scientist by Coldplay is equally as good as the bass part to YYZ. They both fit the music perfectly. Now picture some amateur playing a slap part behind the Scientist or someone playing quarter notes 'in the pocket' to YYZ. You might argue that Rush, in general, is just wanking. It might be true, but when they sell out stadiums there are more than just bass players in the audience.
Um..... I plainly said that players like Chris, Geddy and Steve Harris (and I might have mentioned somebody else) manage to do a lot on bass and still serve the song.
Wowzer! seems like you read a lot more of your own issues into this than has been posted. Not going to re-hash it all, but you're pretty far off the mark if you think that's what is being advocated is pure bass wankery above making good music. Go back and re-read please.
There's a middle ground, find it, chill, and enjoy what you like, nobody is telling you any different.
Seriously now...let's not bastardize the original intent of my post. ALL instruments must play support to other instruments at times during a gig. If someone else is soloing, or if someone is singing, let them shine and don't step on their shizz. Absolutely silly to suggest that I mean everyone get up there and wank at the same time.
People will see what they want to see, apparently. I don't think it's really such a hard concept to grasp, pretty clear, really.
Instruments can have more than one role. Sometimes I'll be in the background, musically, and sometimes I'll be more in the spotlight, depending on what I think sounds good.
I feel like that's the original meaning to "serving the song." I have a lead part in one of my band's (well, one of my bands) songs, and it works quite well, I think and sounds good there. I don't have one in another song, because it wouldn't fit very well there and wouldn't sound very good.
Beethoven didn't have the brass blaring really loudly all the time in his symphonies, but he certainly wrote other parts in which they shine at the forefront.
Instruments can have more than one role. Sometimes I'll be in the background, musically, and sometimes I'll be more in the spotlight, depending on what I think sounds good.
I feel like that's the original meaning to "serving the song." I have a lead part in one of my band's (well, one of my bands) songs, and it works quite well, I think and sounds good there. I don't have one in another song, because it wouldn't fit very well there and wouldn't sound very good.
Beethoven didn't have the brass blaring really loudly all the time in his symphonies, but he certainly wrote other parts in which they shine at the forefront.
I love the way you put things Jimmy, everyone in the office looked at me when I LOL`d at this
Nah. My writing style always seems to convey more tension than is actually there. But the OP seemed to have a bit of a chip on his shoulder. His post seemed to convey a bit of "I want to play what I want to play regardless of what anybody thinks." I was just laying out what I thought of it. And that, after all, is the point of these conversations, right?
But I'm not mad at the guy, or for that matter anyone who disagrees with me on anything. (That is, unless you think sleeping with my wife is OK.)
Sorry if I ruffled any feathers. I tend to have to walk back things verbally sometimes as well. I come across sometimes as much more annoyed than I really feel.
Cheers.
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