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Bassist's Guide to Singing

#41
ric1312 said:
I've found what happens with the usual approach, is that most people suck in the abdominal muscles clench them and then the diaphram moves hardly at all, because what they've now just done is make the same muscular movements you make when you are lifting heavy and clenching the abdomen to prevent a hernia.
I'm not trying to say that the diaphram works any differtnly with this approach. what I'm saying is, is this is a better way to actually learn to using support.

What is it about people that when something is different but works they take it as an affront?

Just because you were taught a certain way, does not mean there isn't a better way todo it quicker.
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Done a lot of research on this, eh? Perhaps you should take your own advice... I don't know, maybe it's because of the 6 years of schooling which included extensive head, neck, and thoracic anatomy and graduate level voice disorder classes. In case you missed it in my initial post in this thread, I'm a speech language pathologist.

Better and quicker rarely go together, especially not in this case.

I've seen quite a few voice disorders many of which were singers in local bands who had been to voice coaches. There are many voice coaches out there who know what they are doing. There are others who really don't. Be careful with what you do with inforamtion you get.

That said, I can't say whether you sing or speak correctly or not. I haven't heard you do either. I'm not saying that your theory on the ribs doesn't help in the long run. What I am saying is it takes more than what you are doing to have proper diaphragmatic support which is crucial for voice. I'm also saying that you need to learn to isolate the diaphragm from your abs which as you stated, you cannot do (or at least not do easily).

I'm not trying to sound off on you here but I do know exactly what to look for and there other ways I have of teaching/correcting this that I cannot properly divulge over the internet, much like a doctor can only give so much info over the phone. Also keep in mind that I hold a national certificate and state licensure that allows me to discuss such matters.

-Big Joe, MS CCC-SLP :cool:
 
#42
You may be a patholigist, so how does the qualify you to teach a singer how to connect singing to proper support? Do you sing? I do, In fact I've been singing for 20 years. I've been through all stuff you described.

I'm not just repeating something someone said. I know this works. I can sing covers of Zepplin, queensryche, maiden and preist all very high pitch powerful stuff because of the way I approach breathing, and I can do it for hours without losing my voice because of it.

What I've desbribed actually gets a singer right to the diaphram control without engaging the abdominal muscles first and trying to push with them.

You mentioned the laugh and added to that the hiccup. When you do these you would also notice, that guess what, your lower back ribs compress forword. This is the action I am talking about

I am however aware that there are vocal coaches that teach very poor techniques. I've even been to doctors to make sure everything was where it should be in my throat and I didn't have nodes or things that would hinder my vocal productions.

I've found the single worst impediment to singing, is the singers own mind and controlling things the wrong way or having misconceptions of how things work or how to actually control them.

what I've found is that approaching the diaphram from the lower back ribs can almost instantly engage proper breathting for singing and get past much of the mental confusion that the book, budda belly, syringe, or suck in the belly teaching ususally leads too.
 
#43
"Also keep in mind that I hold a national certificate and state licensure that allows me to discuss such matters."

So what, I've been to classical vocal coaches degreed in voice who couldn't explain to me how the voice works when singing.

Also this is a forum, you don't need a licence to discuss here, no one's getting paid.
 
#44
"I'm also saying that you need to learn to isolate the diaphragm from your abs which as you stated, you cannot do (or at least not do easily)."

If you read my first post properly you would have found that I find using the back first method actually does isolate the diphragm from the abdominals, in fact very well. This was actually a big point of why approach breathing in this way.

For somone who is learned you don't skim too well.
 
#45
ric1312 said:
You may be a patholigist, so how does the qualify you to teach a singer how to connect singing to proper support? Do you sing? I do, In fact I've been singing for 20 years. I've been through all stuff you described.
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I don't have the note recognition to teach singing per se. A voice teacher is much better equipped to teach the musicality aspect of it than I, although I do sing. I can work on increasing volume safely and improving pitch range safely.

The problem I have found with many vocal coaches is they approach everything too aggessively without adequate knowledge of the anatomy or the effects of what they "teach" can have long term on the voice when all is said and done with their "classes."

I am glad that this method has worked for you and you seem to have an impressive vocal range. It is not without merit and is actually similar to a diagnostic tool we use to distract them into better voicing and I hope it continues to work well for you. However, I think this method is touching upon just the tip of the iceberg where there is really a lot more to it. I think this can help with refining intact diaphragmatic support. This worked for you because you already had everything intact and most likely working pretty well. It allowed you to maximize what you already could do, perhaps just easier/more automatic which is half the battle. There is actually a high percentage of voice disorders that are psychogenic.

I do not think that trying this technique would work as well for someone who does not already have adequate diaphragmatic control/support or who is approaching singing for the first time and especially not someone who is currently losing their voice or having other difficulties.

Let's look at my post as a tool for novice to intermediate vocal disciples and yours perhaps as a tool to refine more advanced singers.
 
#46
Big Joe said:
Get in shape. As said before, breathing is a huge part of your voice. Make sure you are able to breathe easily. If you get winded walking up a flight of stairs, your voice will suffer because your lungs aren't up to par for singing. The better shape you are in overall, the less likely you are to get winded and lose that much-needed coordination between your lungs and your voice because you get sloppy and lose proper form when you're out of shape



Get in shape!!! Never a truer word has been spoken!! 3 years ago I decided to start walking to work everyday(a 6km round trip). Even a brisk walk everyday will make a HUGE difference to how you feel before and AFTER your gig,singer or not.
I do sing and play and noticed a huge change in my range and power even only 3 months after I started my walking.And then the laws were changed in my home state which banned smoking in pubs and music venues.Can sing all night and not feel tired at all now!!

Plus, for those of us who are a little more senior in years ,fitness will add longevity to our active gigging years.
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#47
Thanks for all the good info, especially Jive for starting it all! Our lead singer quit about six months ago and we have been taking a break until about a month or so ago. We ended up with a female singer with a fantastic voice, but she is wanting to add a lot of harmony vocals. I have been playing bass for 25 years but never really sang much. Now were learning new material and trying to sing while playing bass and its really depressing. I end up concentrating too much and sucking at everything,:( so its nice to hear I am not alone. The worst thing is not really knowing how to improve, until I read these posts. I have some tools to try to improve, but I have a long way to go. I end up singing her vocals, I start on the harmony part and end up singing unison. Argh!
 
#48
A technique which can greatly aid a singer who also plays an instrument is to have well orgaized cuecards nearby where you can see them but where they're unobtrusive to the audience. This can be as simple as a single sheet with the song list and a few notes, or as detailed as a page for each song with music, lyrics and cue notes.

Most big name acts use these and even use teleprompters so I disagree with those who say using notes is "unprofessional". The typical serious working band has hundreds of songs and to expect to have all the lyrics memorized and to sing them flawlessly WHILE playing bass or other instument is unreasonable. The trick to making this work efficiently is to:

1) Be as well rehearsed as possible so that your notes are just an aid, not a crutch. Be prepared to sing and play without ANY notes including making up words on-the-fly or repeating verses if you need to. I've seen lots of groups doing this. Seeing David Gilmour of Pink Floyd and Paul McCartney get lost when their teleprompters failed was amusing for us in the audience but probably not so much for them.

2) Keep your notes out of the way and unseen by the audience. I keep mine in a small binder sitting on a black, solid backed mini music holder (about 6x9) mounted to the mic stand where I can glance at them easily without the audience knowing I'm doing so. You can buy these for about $15 from any of the popular musician catalogs.

3) Organize your notes by a system that works for you and once you're used to that system keep doing it that way. Relying on notes which are unorganized is worse than not having notes at all.



One of the most important lessons I've learned from singing is that when (not if) you get lost in your lyrics,if you just bull forward and work your way through it as best you can, then as long as you present a professional image to the audience and act like everything is going smoothly most people won't even notice.
 
#49
hbarcat said:
A technique which can greatly aid a singer who also plays an instrument is to have well orgaized cuecards nearby where you can see them but where they're unobtrusive to the audience. This can be as simple as a single sheet with the song list and a few notes, or as detailed as a page for each song with music, lyrics and cue notes.

Most big name acts use these and even use teleprompters so I disagree with those who say using notes is "unprofessional". The typical serious working band has hundreds of songs and to expect to have all the lyrics memorized and to sing them flawlessly WHILE playing bass or other instument is unreasonable. The trick to making this work efficiently is to:

1) Be as well rehearsed as possible so that your notes are just an aid, not a crutch. Be prepared to sing and play without ANY notes including making up words on-the-fly or repeating verses if you need to. I've seen lots of groups doing this. Seeing David Gilmour of Pink Floyd and Paul McCartney get lost when their teleprompters failed was amusing for us in the audience but probably not so much for them.

2) Keep your notes out of the way and unseen by the audience. I keep mine in a small binder sitting on a black, solid backed mini music holder (about 6x9) mounted to the mic stand where I can glance at them easily without the audience knowing I'm doing so. You can buy these for about $15 from any of the popular musician catalogs.

3) Organize your notes by a system that works for you and once you're used to that system keep doing it that way. Relying on notes which are unorganized is worse than not having notes at all.



One of the most important lessons I've learned from singing is that when (not if) you get lost in your lyrics,if you just bull forward and work your way through it as best you can, then as long as you present a professional image to the audience and act like everything is going smoothly most people won't even notice.
Click to expand...

which brings up a good point, trying to memorize lyrics. I've always had a problem memorizing lyrics for cover tunes. My only two, trick is to try to remember the visual imagery behind the lyric (this helps best if it's a story), or too just memorize the first line of each verse then it triggers the rest as I sing.

I was wondering if anyone had any tricks for memorizing lyrics quickly.

I've known a couple guys that remember lyrics to a song after the first time they hear them, but they usually fly right out of my head. I have to work at it.
 
#51
It can help to look at the words written out and plan where you're going to take a breath, write it on the words and practice those breaths. Sometimes you can top up your reserves for a longer phrase coming up.
As already mentioned, breathe deeply using your diaphragm - you get more this way!
 
#53
jive1 said:
The diaphragam is a membrane below your lungs. What it means is that you want to sing from your lungs, not just your throat. Let the air flow from your deepest bowels all the way to your mouth and you'll get a rich sound and good projection.
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Agreed. Check the Bounce track here Link Removed

This is me on bass and lead vox, pretty much a natural voice for me. It's all diaphram. Easy bassline, I know, but listen to it all in context of the song. That's equally important - being able to play to the song, and sing to the song.

Practice your vox, be it lead or backing. It is a very valuable tool to have.
 
#57
I just am not able to combine playing and singing, period.
There are two big problems for me - first, I think about my basslines vocally, especially while playing them (thinking about the next notes), so often I somehow go to singing not the note that's supposed to be in the melody, but the note that I'm playing on my bass.
And the second big issue is that when there's supposed to be a strong, accented rest/mute/silence in a bass part, my voice just stops as well.
:(
I can't disconnect voice from playing - can you suggest ways on dealing with it ? How do you manage to think about two rythmically and melodically different parts at once ?
 
#58
I think the answer lies in your question. You have to stop thinking! And that cuts both ways: your hands should play the bass without your brain interfering, and you mouth should do the same for the vocals.
Once you can do either without thought, that's when you start doing them simultaneously in earnest. It's still hard in rythmically complex parts, but the note pitch shouldn't really be a problem.

I've been a singer for longer than I'd like to admit, so for me it's natural to start with the vocals, and then continue with the bass part, but that's not necessarily the best way for you.

And definitely practice the bass lines without looking. Once you take away the eyes, the fingers learn better. Maybe a quick glance for big shifts in position, but other than that, it's not recommended.

Rune
 
#59
Corona_Clyde said:
How do you hit high notes without your voice cracking-kick yourself in the balls?
Click to expand...

Plenty of breath support, total throat relaxation, and open your mouth BIG. Trying to tighten up and squeak out high notes will kill your voice. Get a big healthy breath and "let" it out! You'll need to practice to maintain control.

Also, if you're pushing your voice that hard, back off. If you can't sing than high correctly, then don't sing that high at all. You'll do nothing but hurt yourself in the long run.

Peace
policy
 

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