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Bassists seem to always crank both pickups...

#21
Geri O said:
Can you point to some research and/or studies to show the effects of picking up string vibrations in different places of the string? Please don't take this as a challenge, I'm curious to lean more about this situation and I'd like to read up on the phenomenon.

Cheers...
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Geri, try this and you'll hear what Chat T is talking about. Solo the bridge pickup and play all this harmonics on your bass on all the strings. Then solo the neck pickup and play the same harmonics. Now try it with both pickups. You'll hear a difference between the three settings. Some harmonics will sound strong, some weak or not at all.

Wherever I use a Jazz type bass, I only use the neck pickup, the Joe Osborne setting. It kinda sounds like a P, but I prefer the single coil sound over the both on humbucker sound.

Bassically, Michael
 
#22
the sound i use when i play at home is fundamentally different from the sound i use in my band(s). the main difference is the issue that is addressed here. When using both PUs i get that rich, hifi like sound with the scooped mids. perfect for my living room. in band context, i don't get through the mix with these settings. on my amp i tend to go back on the bass and boost the lower mids.
on my bass i go for the neck PU singled and also boost some mids if i have an active preamp. This sounds not as rich and full when i play solo but it's much better in band context.

If that is a major issue in the place you're FOH'ing in, it is wisest not to order the bass players to sinlge one PU - that always leaves a sour aftertaste.
Tell them that acoustics in your place are difficult and past experience has yielded the fact that a bass with a PU singled will be more audible in the room.
Leave it up to them to do it or not - but in my experience, such information is highly valued by most musicians. When a local FOH guy that has knowledge of how the room will sound when crowded shares his wisdom with me, he always finds me wide open to his tips and tricks. someone who just commands without explanation will meet resistance.
 
#26
Chad T said:
At church, I play bass sometimes (and love it). But overall I run sound a lot more of the time.

We have a rotation of players who all have their own basses. One thing I have noticed is that bass players who bring a bass with two pickups.......99% of them crank both pickup volumes (or have the blend knob dead center).

From my perspective as a soundguy, this creates a challenge. Depending on the player and the bass they are using, the phase cancellation and midrange reduction from that can reduce their sound to largely an atonal rumble. What's even worse is folks with active basses tend to crank their bass EQ. It gets to the point where it's hard to fix with EQ at the mixing board. Sound people aren't magicians: poo in = poo out. We can only polish it so much.

Two questions:

1. Why do an overwhelming majority of people crank both pickups, crank bass EQ, etc.? I will admit that both pickups all the way up can sound pretty good while playing at home, but I NEVER do that when playing live for the reasons mentioned above. Even backing off one pickup a little can help immensely.

2. Do you folks who run sound consider both pickups cranked an issue and what do you do to address it? Or how do you address players who otherwise have subpar tone coming into the mixing board? It seems like every week there are conversations over the talkback mic with me asking them to adjust the controls on their bass. I feel somewhat invasive doing that, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do. One thing I may try in the future is to talk to bass players before practice starts, but there are often time constraints that can make anything but quick small talk a challenge.

Note: all bass players run straight into a DI.
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Personally, rear pickup for praise and front pickup for worship. Put your fingers where the live pickup is. Music man or P bass...well you have what you have.
I find both pickups tend to sound indistinct and wooly.
 
#27
Playing two pickups at the same time usually results in a mid-scoop which is often a pleasing sound but can make it harder to be heard in a mix. Over-use of onboard bass boost can further mess things up, but...

I'm surprised that cutting bass and boosting high mids at the board doesn't sufficiently straighten things out for the house feed.
 
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#28
Michael4bass said:
Geri, try this and you'll hear what Chat T is talking about. Solo the bridge pickup and play all this harmonics on your bass on all the strings. Then solo the neck pickup and play the same harmonics. Now try it with both pickups. You'll hear a difference between the three settings. Some harmonics will sound strong, some weak or not at all.

Wherever I use a Jazz type bass, I only use the neck pickup, the Joe Osborne setting. It kinda sounds like a P, but I prefer the single coil sound over the both on humbucker sound.

Bassically, Michael
Click to expand...

Of course. I did this excercise a long time ago for other reasons.

I do hear differences. I don't hear lobes and nulls.
 
#32
Chad T said:
At church, I play bass sometimes (and love it). But overall I run sound a lot more of the time.

We have a rotation of players who all have their own basses. One thing I have noticed is that bass players who bring a bass with two pickups.......99% of them crank both pickup volumes (or have the blend knob dead center).

From my perspective as a soundguy, this creates a challenge. Depending on the player and the bass they are using, the phase cancellation and midrange reduction from that can reduce their sound to largely an atonal rumble. What's even worse is folks with active basses tend to crank their bass EQ. It gets to the point where it's hard to fix with EQ at the mixing board. Sound people aren't magicians: poo in = poo out. We can only polish it so much.

Two questions:

1. Why do an overwhelming majority of people crank both pickups, crank bass EQ, etc.? I will admit that both pickups all the way up can sound pretty good while playing at home, but I NEVER do that when playing live for the reasons mentioned above. Even backing off one pickup a little can help immensely.

2. Do you folks who run sound consider both pickups cranked an issue and what do you do to address it? Or how do you address players who otherwise have subpar tone coming into the mixing board? It seems like every week there are conversations over the talkback mic with me asking them to adjust the controls on their bass. I feel somewhat invasive doing that, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do. One thing I may try in the future is to talk to bass players before practice starts, but there are often time constraints that can make anything but quick small talk a challenge.

Note: all bass players run straight into a DI.
Click to expand...

Most people are stupid. Bassists & sound guys are certainly no exception.
 
#33
I play the majority of the time with my J pickups blended equal. I love that scooped tone and it's my default (obv some songs require something a bit different but I digress). Nothing wrong with that, and with crisp, smooth play (IMO) it sounds awesome. BUT, maxing out the bass knob... that just ruins everyone's day. Typically I have the bass EQ set flat or a slight cut, but I have been known to kick it up a notch... usually when I have a guitarist running FOH. IME they have a habit of keeping bass too quiet in the mix, and cutting the lower frequencies. Sometimes I have to re-adjust the sound on their behalf just so I can hear myself.

What you may be experiencing is a "Chicken or the Egg" situation.
 
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#35
Based on the comments about the onboard EQ, I have active preamps in my Jazz and my Precision. I set all EQ flat most all of the time, except on a mellow tune, where I back off the treble to make a less-aggressive tone appropriate for the song.
 
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#37
OP: a balanced blend of both pickups is what MAKES that Jazz Bass sound for some, myself included. Maybe very high output or active pickups, and additional eq'ing is a the real culprit in your experience, and bigger issue than the phase cancellation or dual pickup tone is.
If I wanted to play Rush covers, then yeah maybe more bridge pickup. But using both of my (60's reissue) pickups blended along with mild compression at beginning of signal chain is how (in my opinion) I sit very well in the mix at my church. I look to fill out the low end with full but smooth fundamental.

If anything gets atonal or mushy.... I would blame that on upfront eq at the preamp / bass amp level before it goes to FOH. Or lack of compression. It can be critical for bassists whose signal ends up getting split between amp and DI to FOH
 
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#38
I'm the bassist for my band and a part-time sound guy. As a bassist I run both pickups full on because 1) I like the sound and 2) it gets rid of 60-cycle hum. As a sound guy, my job is to take what I'm given and work with it. Generally I put a high-pass filter around 50-60Hz on the bass to get rid of rumble and to deconflict it from the kick drum; it also tends to have the effect of tightening up the sound so I can actually push it higher in the mix, which really helps. A bit of compression and eq is all I need after that, usually.

One of the things that I think makes the MusicMan Stingray sound so good, in fact, is that the preamp (well, the 3-band preamp) has a built-in high pass filter set around 60 Hz or so. Once that's in place, either at the bass or the board, I can push the bass higher to get it heard without the rumble/mud from the extreme low frequencies.

Tom
 
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#39
Chad T said:
Note: all bass players run straight into a DI
Click to expand...

I'm no scientist, but I play one on TV :)

Nah, actually as a sound tech, I'm pretty pedestrian, though I've been doing audio of all sorts for a lot of years. Never had such a problem. No matter what bass.

#1
I think a lot of musicians, yeah, bassists count :p tend to crank volume based on what they/we are hearing from where we stand. If everything goes to 11 on our instruments, it's because we're not hearing ourselves well. And to be sure, in big rooms like churches, it's super easy to have lo freqs over play the room's ability to keep it clear. More volume isn't the answer, but to the player, where they stand, they're max'ing it because they're not hearing clearly. Make sure their speakers are within line of ear for them, that'll help them not max things out as a reflex to "I can't hear enough me". But be sure their line of ear isn't killing someone else across stage, and getting into microphones, a good idea anyway, which might be part of your problem bass bleed into mics.

#2
Regarding not getting good sound for every bass via the PA, that's really odd. The first thing I'd want to do....

[btw - do you have any similar problems with any other instruments? real guitars, for example, aside form those wanna-be 4 strings? or maybe with multiple singers? does switching on more than one mic at time ever create weirdness? I mainly ask in regard to possibly having wiring/polarity/phase issues with maybe poorly wired XLR cables, or speaker cabs not all playing well together in opposing polarity/phase +/- cone action. Could be all sorts of things out of wack like that. Some church audio systems I've seen are very piecemeal - installed in bits and pieces over time, as well as with gear ranging from retro archaic to modern high end - sometimes all mixed together. Making sure all of that is in harmony might be something to consider.]

Nevertheless... The first thing I'd want to do is look to the DI box. Does it have polarity or phase switches. The signal from the bass rig that the player is hearing - maybe not so directly with where they sit/stand in relation to their amp, might be not playing at it's best with the DI box, having problems with how it translates through the PA, if some speakers aren't playing well together.

idk, just throwing out something that seems less mentioned in the thread. The DI and how it plays with the system. The flip of a switch, if it has one or two or three, with each different bass - might make a difference. Is it active or passive DI. Phantom power or depending on a diminishing battery? Is the cabling for the DI ok? XLR with grounding issues? Swap cables. Swap DIs.

Something you did mention, about room acoustics can be part of the problem, are there room issues particularly unfriendly to bass freqs? Lower overall volume a tad.

-- I had to do some theatre audio, where the actors were all on wireless lapel mics. I spent hours trying to get the audio evened out with system and board EQs due to mic movement - but I couldn't kill this particular resonance. All the mics were omni directional, it was a real bear. After working late to get things ready the night before show, I shut things down, figuring to come in with fresh ears. - Everything off, and as I was locking up, I banged a table or chair or something and BOING there it was. It was the room - it had a little extra rim of drywall above the stage area, maybe for covering conduit, it was a freq trap - no way to kill it without acoustic treatments. All I could do was live with it and keep the volume mellow. It was a small room so it all went well.

Some different ideas to consider. I don't know for single bass string harmonics canceling each other out. I can see it on maybe old string(s) on one bass, but across the board, i dunno... If your problem is all basses, follow the trail from amp/DI to PA. If your problem might effect other instruments or mics, scrutinize the PA wiring or speakers and their placement. Lots of possible gremlins. I don't think it's the basses. Now the bass players? Maybe.
 
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