Bassists seem to always crank both pickups...

[Chad T]

At church, I play bass sometimes (and love it). But overall I run sound a lot more of the time.

We have a rotation of players who all have their own basses. One thing I have noticed is that bass players who bring a bass with two pickups.......99% of them crank both pickup volumes (or have the blend knob dead center).

From my perspective as a soundguy, this creates a challenge. Depending on the player and the bass they are using, the phase cancellation and midrange reduction from that can reduce their sound to largely an atonal rumble. What's even worse is folks with active basses tend to crank their bass EQ. It gets to the point where it's hard to fix with EQ at the mixing board. Sound people aren't magicians: poo in = poo out. We can only polish it so much.

Two questions:

1. Why do an overwhelming majority of people crank both pickups, crank bass EQ, etc.? I will admit that both pickups all the way up can sound pretty good while playing at home, but I NEVER do that when playing live for the reasons mentioned above. Even backing off one pickup a little can help immensely.

2. Do you folks who run sound consider both pickups cranked an issue and what do you do to address it? Or how do you address players who otherwise have subpar tone coming into the mixing board? It seems like every week there are conversations over the talkback mic with me asking them to adjust the controls on their bass. I feel somewhat invasive doing that, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do. One thing I may try in the future is to talk to bass players before practice starts, but there are often time constraints that can make anything but quick small talk a challenge.

Note: all bass players run straight into a DI.



Edit: In hindsight, this thread/post wasn't as well thought out or well worded as I'd like, so I just wanted to add in this post that I typed later in the thread that helps clarify where I'm coming from. Especially for those who don't read the whole thread:

No matter how poorly worded my OP was, my goal is to help players sound as good as possible in our sanctuary. I've only been running sound a couple years and no doubt have a lot to learn, but I am sharing what experiences I've had and what my ears have heard. Running sound is not an easy job especially in a church with so many variables, rotations of players, different levels of talent, etc. It would be easy to just do the minimal amount of work to get through each service (I've seen that with other sound people), but I truly have a heart for wanting it to sound good. And that sometimes means trying to fix things at the source.....especially with new players with little experience. But this thread has been enlightening as to how dangerous that ground is and is certainly causing me to rethink when and what to say to those on stage, and when to just deal with what I am given and try to do my best with it.

 

[Mike N]

Mandate all players use a P Bass?

 

[Chad T]

^lol. Surprisingly, we've had only one P Bass player in recent memory. And it sounded good with minimal work at the board.

Oddly, I've had two players with viola/Beatles style basses. Those don't generally seem very common, but have been at church lately. On the bright side, they aren't active (so no bass boosting) but both players have had crank-both-pickups-itis.

 

[Geri O]

At church, I play bass sometimes (and love it). But overall I run sound a lot more of the time.

We have a rotation of players who all have their own basses. One thing I have noticed is that bass players who bring a bass with two pickups.......99% of them crank both pickup volumes (or have the blend knob dead center).

From my perspective as a soundguy, this creates a challenge. Depending on the player and the bass they are using, the phase cancellation and midrange reduction from that can reduce their sound to largely an atonal rumble. What's even worse is folks with active basses tend to crank their bass EQ. It gets to the point where it's hard to fix with EQ at the mixing board. Sound people aren't magicians: poo in = poo out. We can only polish it so much.

Two questions:

1. Why do an overwhelming majority of people crank both pickups, crank bass EQ, etc.? I will admit that both pickups all the way up can sound pretty good while playing at home, but I NEVER do that when playing live for the reasons mentioned above. Even backing off one pickup a little can help immensely.

2. Do you folks who run sound consider both pickups cranked an issue and what do you do to address it? Or how do you address players who otherwise have subpar tone coming into the mixing board? It seems like every week there are conversations over the talkback mic with me asking them to adjust the controls on their bass. I feel somewhat invasive doing that, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do. One thing I may try in the future is to talk to bass players before practice starts, but there are often time constraints that can make anything but quick small talk a challenge.

Note: all bass players run straight into a DI.

WOW. Just wow. I was positively shocked at reading this. I spent a lot of time on how to respond effectively and politely. I don't think I did a very good job with what I came up with, but regardless, here goes...

I played bass for 21 years, 14 with a road band, struggling with record deals and all the crap that goes with it.

After that, I entered the sound business and became a pro sound guy, mixing for several region groups and assembling, tech-ing, maintaining, and deploying the largest PA in the state (which, considering the state, isn't saying a whole lot, but we did with with several hundred national acts over my 21 years with this company). I am still the FOH guy for the MS Symphony Orchestra, and for two years, I've been playing bass again, pretty much full-time, while working part-time at that PA company doing repairs and up-keep.

All this to just list my references and resume before I make my response.

As a soundguy....I have never....EVER...felt the need to ask a bassist to adjust the balance between the pickups on his instrument. EVER. I've run into other issues (buzzing, bad cords, sloppy technique, etc), some things I can address, some things I can't. But one mantra I followed my entire career was to never tell a player how to set his instrument. I would offer solutions to problems (the aforementioned hums and buzzes), but I left their sound and tone alone, UNLESS ASKED, which did happen from time to time. What I was getting wasn't always pleasant, but I worked with it as best I could. I don't know where I stand in terms of being a good or bad soundguy, but bands and musicians loved me for the reasons I stated. As for basses, I understand that some settings will scoop the tone somewhat. I never ran into a bass sound I couldn't do something with, unless the stage volume was over-bearing. Again, I wasn't going to say anything to the player unless asked.

As a bassist...I've never...EVER had a soundguy tell me that the balance of the pickups on my Jazz bass needed adjusting because of problems with the tone. I set them both at 100% for the Jazz bass sound. The phase issues you mention aren't phase issues. Phase issues are a result of problems with time and frequency. In the case of a bass, you'd have to have the signal from one pickup slightly (in milliseconds) delayed or behind the other, causing a null (cancellation) when the two signals are combined. I can't see this happening with the bass. In the case of Jazz basses, I think (guitar techs, tell me if this is incorrect and what the real answer is) the two pickups are wired out of POLARITY (BIG difference between phase and polarity. It will expand your PA knowledge greatly when you learn the difference). This is why each pickup might pick up hum separately, but when combined, they (mostly) cancel the noise. Other pickup arrangements offer dual-coil pickups with switches to make the coils parallel or in series. You might be dealing with with some of this with the other players basses.

You may have other issues as well, but I'm trying to wrap this up quickly as I have other tasks to get to tonight. But I felt this really needed addressing. You really need to look elsewhere for the problems you are experiencing. Or perhaps a bass just has problems that need to be repaired.

Good luck....

 

[DWBass]

I run both pickups and have never had an issue with FOH but I don't crank my bass eq either.

 

[s0c9]

We have a rotation of players who all have their own basses. One thing I have noticed is that bass players who bring a bass with two pickups.......99% of them crank both pickup volumes (or have the blend knob dead center).

From my perspective as a soundguy, this creates a challenge. Depending on the player and the bass they are using, the phase cancellation and midrange reduction from that can reduce their sound to largely an atonal rumble. What's even worse is folks with active basses tend to crank their bass EQ. It gets to the point where it's hard to fix with EQ at the mixing board. Sound people aren't magicians: poo in = poo out. We can only polish it so much.

To add to GeriO's comments above..
How can you even tell what position the pots on a bass - active or passive - unless you ask or get up close??
If your average bass player has the blend set to both pickups and you're getting "atonal rumble" then I too (like GeriO) suggest you look elsewhere for problems in your system - since you the bass inputs are all DI.
Maybe you have an errant EQ setting on the house DSP??

 

[Chad T]

Thanks much for the input.

It could indeed be related to something in our room acoustics or equipment. I'll look into that further.

Geri O: I'm not extremely well versed on the science of even blended pickups, but the way I understand, it is related to each picking up the same notes at differing points on the string at different levels with differing harmonics. And those cancel each other out to some degree.

s0c9: I can usually tell by ear from the sound booth. Then I ask to confirm what I am hearing. I'd say I have 80% to 90% accuracy.

 

[smeet]

OP, I agree, and I was just thinking about this. I think a lot of players don't want to think, they just "more is more" the bass and they're off to the races. And that is why I think sound guys love P basses - no thought required from the bassist. I always favor one or the other pickup on my jazz (at least slightly), and I think it gives me a much more mid-rich sound that works well in a mix, even though it doesn't get that classic scooped jazz tone.

 

[Geri O]

Chad, I wish I were better-versed in string behavior as it vibrates. The pickups reading differing sections of the string is a point for consideration. But regardless, to have cancellation of a singe sound, there has to be a difference in time arrival.

Can you point to some research and/or studies to show the effects of picking up string vibrations in different places of the string? Please don't take this as a challenge, I'm curious to lean more about this situation and I'd like to read up on the phenomenon.

As to your response to Steve, sorry, s0C9, you should try comparing what you are hearing from the booth with what you are hearing when you cue up the bass input and listen on some good headphones to see if there are differences in the characteristics of the two. It may reveal something, it may not. Just a way to trouble-shoot what you are hearing.

Smeet, I couldn't disagree more with your first two sentences. The last sentence, I consider to be a statement of how you set your bass, which is fine and one of many ways to set the tone of the Jazz bass. Anything less that both pickups at 100% doesn't do it for me. And again, working with several dozen sound guys, not one has ever suggested that I do anything different. Good post, nonetheless...

I doubt I'll comment on this topic much more as it can run off in the weeds pretty quickly. No doubt an interesting topic, but I stand 100% by everything I've already posted.

Cheers...

 

[jamro217]

Turn up their monitors.

 

[GreyBeard]

My SR5 only has one PU so I'm sort of in the dark on this one but, when I play my SX5 (sex bass) I crank both single coil PU's because it is quieter that way.

 

[JakeyBran]

At church, I play bass sometimes (and love it). But overall I run sound a lot more of the time.

We have a rotation of players who all have their own basses. One thing I have noticed is that bass players who bring a bass with two pickups.......99% of them crank both pickup volumes (or have the blend knob dead center).

From my perspective as a soundguy, this creates a challenge. Depending on the player and the bass they are using, the phase cancellation and midrange reduction from that can reduce their sound to largely an atonal rumble. What's even worse is folks with active basses tend to crank their bass EQ. It gets to the point where it's hard to fix with EQ at the mixing board. Sound people aren't magicians: poo in = poo out. We can only polish it so much.

Two questions:

1. Why do an overwhelming majority of people crank both pickups, crank bass EQ, etc.? I will admit that both pickups all the way up can sound pretty good while playing at home, but I NEVER do that when playing live for the reasons mentioned above. Even backing off one pickup a little can help immensely.

2. Do you folks who run sound consider both pickups cranked an issue and what do you do to address it? Or how do you address players who otherwise have subpar tone coming into the mixing board? It seems like every week there are conversations over the talkback mic with me asking them to adjust the controls on their bass. I feel somewhat invasive doing that, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do. One thing I may try in the future is to talk to bass players before practice starts, but there are often time constraints that can make anything but quick small talk a challenge.

Note: all bass players run straight into a DI.

i play at church too and i play an american deluxe precision. i run everything flat.. pickups, treble, mid. i boost my bass slightly. very slightly. never had issues with FOH.

 

[friendlybass]

Thanks much for the input.

It could indeed be related to something in our room acoustics or equipment. I'll look into that further.

Geri O: I'm not extremely well versed on the science of even blended pickups, but the way I understand, it is related to each picking up the same notes at differing points on the string at different levels with differing harmonics. And those cancel each other out to some degree.

s0c9: I can usually tell by ear from the sound booth. Then I ask to confirm what I am hearing. I'd say I have 80% to 90% accuracy.

So the harmonics of the same note can't cancel any of the others out. And the string is vibrating at the same frequency throughout its length and thus can't have phase issues or pitch cancellation. The difference in locations along the string only affect the excursion of the string that the pickup picks up. That's why they wind bridge pickups hotter than neck pickups, so the the small excursion near the bridge is as loud as the larger excursion farther up the string.
Basses usually sound best with the volume full up because almost all volume controls are passive, they don't boost at all the max signal is full on. The potentiometer lets you throttle the amount of signal from the pickup. When you turn it down you usually lose some clarity and "beef" to the tone. IMO, IME, YMMV, etc. Every sound guy I work with told me the same when I started.
Preamps are another matter, and its okay to ask them to lay off the lows on the pre, especially in a naturally rumbly room (IE a large room with lots of open space and nothing stopping those low waves from bouncing off walls and sticking in corners, I deal with this a lot in sanctuaries).
Too many factors in room acoustics to blame the settings on the bass, by the time it gets to your ears everything from air pressure to how well you slept is affecting your perception of it. But in general, diming your volume knob is a good idea, and helps keep clarity, and then you can turn down the guy at the board, mix out his lows, take him out of any subs, ask him to skip the cab and just run direct (what finally worked for me, I play a lot of sanctuaries which are suuuuper rumbly), there's a lot more than the settings on his bass.

 

[petey293]

Thanks much for the input.

It could indeed be related to something in our room acoustics or equipment. I'll look into that further.

Geri O: I'm not extremely well versed on the science of even blended pickups, but the way I understand, it is related to each picking up the same notes at differing points on the string at different levels with differing harmonics. And those cancel each other out to some degree.

s0c9: I can usually tell by ear from the sound booth. Then I ask to confirm what I am hearing. I'd say I have 80% to 90% accuracy.

Having both pickups on full will create a bit of a scooped sound, which sounds good for slapping, and sounds nice and fat but also "precise" when recording or when you're standing right next to your amp. It can get a little muddy out front though, that's why I like to back off of one pickup, usually the neck. This lets a bit of the mids come back and gets it sounding better in the crowd. When I'm playing with an active bass, I usually boost the mids a bit and keep the bass boost in the center detent. I might use just a touch of bass boost if I have a bridge pickup soloed, just to fatten it up a bit. I agree that having the bass boost on the preamp turned all the way up is just ridiculous, and if you pluck hard, it can cause the preamp to fart out. Not to mention the mud...

 

[moody]

My SR5 only has one PU so I'm sort of in the dark on this one but, when I play my SX5 (sex bass) I crank both single coil PU's because it is quieter that way.

My main bass for many years has two single coils. I always put the balance at or near half way to the point with most hum reduction. I eventually removed the balance control and hardwired the two pickups together.

I prefer no noise to the versatility of two pickups. Always sounded good to me.

 

[SamJ]

Every bass I own has two pickups, and all 3 sound better to my ear when both pickups are in use.... sometimes I do vary the balance between bridge and neck, but sometimes I just run it 50/50.

 

[DavC]

I rarely play with both pups maxed ... unless that kinda tone might be needed ... but I try to always play passive basses with humbuckers ... so no 60 cycle hum crap when downing down just 1 pup a little ....

I would think a lot of J players that have single coil pups might keep them both cranked to avoid the noise ... !!

when I had that type of Jazz , I'd adjust the pups neck down , bridge up , to try and get close to the tone I wanted ... so I could keep the volumes up to avoid the hum .. !??!

when running sound I would try to replicate the bass 'stage sound' as much as I could thru the fronts ... it is the bassist's tone that you're supporting with the PA ... !?

 

[ofajen]

So the harmonics of the same note can't cancel any of the others out. And the string is vibrating at the same frequency throughout its length and thus can't have phase issues or pitch cancellation. The difference in locations along the string only affect the excursion of the string that the pickup picks up.

The situation is actually somewhat complex and interesting. Don Tillman's articles are a good starting point:

Don Tillman -- Articles

He has two analytical articles on this... the first two in the Guitar Electronics section. Be sure to read part 1 first, so that you have a handle on the effect of pickup location on response before diving into part 2, which discusses mixing multiple pickups.

Otto

 

[smeet]

A very simple and brief explanation:

Each harmonic of a string can be out of phase with that same harmonic at a different part of the string.

Watch this video. At about 1:15 he draws the path of the vibrating string for the second harmonic. Notice that when the left side of the string goes up, the right side goes down, and vice versa.


The second harmonic at the point at 1/4 of the way along the string is 180 degrees out of phase with the same harmonic at the point 3/4 of the way along the string. If you have a pickup at each of those locations, the second harmonic will completely cancel if those two pickups are mixed at exactly the same volume. This will happen to some extent with some harmonics with any two pickup locations chosen. This is why a 50/50 pickup balance cancels out much of your midrange.


Remember that a soundman won't tell you to change your pickup balance because he or she doesn't necessarily know WHY you don't have a lot of mids in your sound. Mostly they probably remember that most jazz bass players lack mids. Jaco had lots of mids, because he played mostly with one pickup only. Change your balance from 50/50 to 60/40 or 40/60, and you should hear a dramatic difference in mid cancellation, and also you'll find two more tones your jazz can create.

 

[faulknersj]

Um...what Geri O said. Played and seen 1000's of shows...heard double pickup basses with both pick ups on full sound great too many times to count.