bassists who don't like jaco

[JimK]

Originally Posted by Matt Till
You don't like Jaco... so what? Not every Saxaphone player likes Coletrane/Bird, Not every Drummer likes Neil Peart/Buddy Rich, Not every guitarist likes Hendrix/Clapton, etc etc... nobody holds it against them.

My guess is you don't like Jazz Fusion... that's cool... my guess is you want to/do play in a rock setting (this includes all subgenres, I'm just saying rock vs jazz)... your not going to go into this rock setting and have the band discriminate against you for not liking Jaco... so who cares? When you see a thread about Jaco... don't enter it... you don't care... so who cares?

This just about says it all. I'm not a big Jaco fan myself, but I can appreciate what he brought to the instrument as far as innovation. That being said, during the same time period, I'll take Stanley Clarke's playing and musical innovation over over Jaco's anytime. just my opinion fwiw

Honestly, I can't name one(1) Jazz sax player that hasn't prayed at the altar of Bird & 'Trane. True, there are those who stopped listenening to Coltrane after Ascension...nevertheless, he is often considered to be Jazz' last great innovator + his ballad playing was totally intact.

I have seen Hendrix get flamed by guitarists; I know many drummers not that impressed with Peart...FME(I guess) Jazzers are more steeped in 'the tradition'.

Gophs-
As far as Jaco...the next time you're in yer local B&N, why not flip to Pg. 281 in Milkowski's Jaco bio. There are 60+ opinions(Rashied Ali thru Joeseph Zawinul) from those that actually played/studied with the guy.

 

[AxtoOx]

I'm middle aged now, and am just starting to get into Jaco. I was into the music scene when he was around, his music wasn't my cup o tea then. Now I find him impessive.
I have to agree w/ some of the others though, I find Jaco impessive, I've seen Stanley Clarke live and he completely changed the way I look at bass. It was 79 or 80 and i was truely blow away.

 

[Tom]

If one were to make an informed critique of Jaco, one would have to consider the context around the music. However, if you don't find the music pleasing, then... that's about all there is to it. You shouldn't have to think about it in the context of the time, culture, or even how popular it is. As a matter of fact, a real judgment of an object's aesthetic beauty is disinterested (that is, it isn't predisposed to like or dislike it).

I've seen this topic before, too, and usually it ends with the Jaco-lovers jumping on the original poster and telling him he'll like Jaco when he grows up. At least, this is what I've observed in this thread and a couple of similar discussions.

If he doesn't do anything for ya, I'm sure you'll find other bassists that inspire.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

As far as opening doors in the jazz world for electric I think Jamerson may have had a bigger influence.

Jamerson was a great player, no doubt - but none of what he's famous for can really be called Jazz!!

 

[fretlessrock]

I am pretty much convinced that these threads are started by the same guy registering with a new nick every 23.7 days....

 

[Alan Vorse]

From personal experience, there is stuff I've heard (including Jaco) that I didn't like or even hated, but then a few years later I really got tinto it. Some music comes to you but there is other music you have to go to.

 

[Bass2x]

Some music comes to you but there is other music you have to go to.

True dat.
(Hmmm... that would make a good sig)

 

[ganga]

This just about says it all. I'm not a big Jaco fan myself, but I can appreciate what he brought to the instrument as far as innovation. That being said, during the same time period, I'll take Stanley Clarke's playing and musical innovation over over Jaco's anytime. just my opinion fwiw

I'm just the opposite of you, I really dislike Stanley Clarkes songs (some are okay). But I simply love what he did for the instrument.

 

[j-raj]

From personal experience, there is stuff I've heard (including Jaco) that I didn't like or even hated, but then a few years later I really got tinto it. Some music comes to you but there is other music you have to go to.

+1, that's how it is for me with the band Squeeze.

 

[RHFusillo]

I've written this before, but it bears repeating: For those who question the importance of Jaco Pastorius, I wish you could have been in Boston during the Fall of 1975. He came to town to play with Pat Metheny, who was then on the Berklee faculty. Jaco caused a paradigm shift that I can only compare to the effect Charlie Parker must have had on saxophone players during the 1940's.

Stanley Clarke was and is a great player. But you could trace what he was doing to antecedents like Scott LaFaro, Cecil McBee, Jack Bruce, and Larry Graham. Jaco seemed unprecedented.

Having expressed my admiration for him, I have the following negative opinions:

• I think that Weather Report was a much better group with Alphonso Johnson. Jaco turned WR into a soloist's band, which was not necessarily an improvement.
• Jaco was repeating himself after 1980, both as a composer and a bassist. Word of Mouth sounds to me like a repackaging of pieces from his first solo album and the WR albums. This was probably because his illness was getting the better of him.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Having expressed my admiration for him, I have the following negative opinions:

• I think that Weather Report was a much better group with Alphonso Johnson. Jaco turned WR into a soloist's band, which was not necessarily an improvement.

• 
  
  I think this is very debatable and that it's impossible to isolate Jaco's joining from the band's development as a whole.
  
  Really what was happening was that it was becoming more and more Joe Zawinul's band, as he discovered what he could do with the advances in polyphonic synthesisers...and less about Wayne Shorter who pulled back...
  
  So it was Joe who hired Jaco for his own reasons and their least "soloist" record ever was Mr. Gone - where it's all about Joe's synths and compositions, with Jaco providing brief relief in the intro to Punk Jazz....
  
  The other thing is that Jaco's introduction to the band had a big impact on them as a live entity - so before Jaco - their tours never caused a stir in Europe - but after - everybody wanted a ticket and they were big news!!
  
  But again this may also be because Joe had more polyphonic synths that could recreate what he wanted live and that were more reilable - early synths were notoriously unreliable, bulky and didn't travel well - as well as being monophonic.
  
  By the mid to late 70s - Joe could be a real star on keyboards and fill out the sound of the quartet live..so they changed in that respect.
  
  
  

  [*]Jaco was repeating himself after 1980, both as a composer and a bassist. Word of Mouth sounds to me like a repackaging of pieces from his first solo album and the WR albums. This was probably because his illness was getting the better of him.

I disagree completely with this on both counts and he was on to very different areas, later with Holiday for Pans - you may not like this so much as his earliest stuff, but I don't think you can say he was repeating himself on WOM...?

 

[jerry]

The other thing is that Jaco's introduction to the band had a big impact on them as a live entity - so before Jaco - their tours never caused a stir in Europe - but after - everybody wanted a ticket and they were big news!!

It was the same in NY! I went to Weather Report concerts a LOT in the 70's, from the Alphonso period[that I loved] through the Jaco years. Jaco put people in the seats! I've always said in the Jaco threads how much I dug and and how forward I thought the Word Of Mouth album was, I think it's a great album with some incredible composing on it.
I also agree about the paradigm shift, it was felt on the whole east coast. It really is hard to explain to younger players just how huge it was, I never saw the bass the same again after Jaco, and to me, that was a gift from the gods.

 

[RHFusillo]

I disagree completely with this on both counts and he was on to very different areas, later with Holiday for Pans - you may not like this so much as his earliest stuff, but I don't think you can say he was repeating himself on WOM...?

I hear very little in Pastorius' post-1980 output that he had not done before that.

I stand by my previous statements. But I do agree that Jaco made WR a more popular band, and probably a more exciting show. But, based on the studio recordings, I think they were better before Jaco.

 

[Bass2x]

I disagree completely with this on both counts and he was on to very different areas, later with Holiday for Pans - you may not like this so much as his earliest stuff, but I don't think you can say he was repeating himself on WOM...?

Jaco didn't play on Holiday for Pans...
That album was never finished. Jaco mixed it before his death, left it at the studio and it was discovered later that the bass track was a fraud. Some obscure New York bassist fessed up about 10 years after it's Japanese release when people questioned the sloppy bass lines.

 

[j-raj]

Jaco didn't play on Holiday for Pans...
That album was never finished. Jaco mixed it before his death, left it at the studio and it was discovered later that the bass track was a fraud. Some obscure New York bassist fessed up about 10 years after it's Japanese release when people questioned the sloppy bass lines.

... wow, you learn something new everyday!

 

[bucephylus]

[*]Jaco was repeating himself after 1980, both as a composer and a bassist. Word of Mouth sounds to me like a repackaging of pieces from his first solo album and the WR albums. This was probably because his illness was getting the better of him.
[/list]

Each to their own.

For me, as great as his earlier efforts were. I particularly find the big band work to be my favorite. There is just no other example to my knowledge of how a big band format can be re-tooled with such a modern feel, combining groove, feel, great section work, compositions, and soloing. I can't get enough of WOM.

It's fine to disagree, but recognize that there isn't general agreement on this point.

 

[JimK]

J-
That rumour/urban myth has been around awhile.


I think I agree with RH about Jaco's post-1980 output; maybe post-'83 or so would better fit for me, however, as I especially like Word Of Mouth, Twins, & The 30th Birthday Concert discs..

I also understand the case that pre-Jaco WR was 'better' on record. Much more Wayne vs. Joe/Jaco with the Vitous/Alphonso albums.
You can never have enuff Shorter!

 

[Dr. Cheese]

I agree with RHFusillo about how unprecedented Jaco was. I remember seeing him with Weather Report live on the Midnight Special TV show in 1977. He did the intro to "Birdland" with false harmonics and I was totally at a loss in trying to figure out how he played such notes on the middle register of a Jazz Bass. Even the fact that he played a lined fretless was unprecedented. I had never seen a lined fretless before. Even something as simple soloing the back pickup was unprecedented. I remember my first fretless bass and I soloed the bridge pup and all of a sudden, I could approximate the Jaco tone! I had no idea that something so basic had been ignored. These are things that younger bassists cannot appreciate because they are comonplace now.

 

[dabass]

Hi, I have a suggestion that might help you learn to "appreciate" "jaco'ian" music. First, sit down with a bass (if you are a bass player) and the "Heavy Weather" CD and "sheets" for Havona and learn the tune! Then once you have "mastered it" sit down with a fretless bass and play it in perfect tune! Then, try to imagine that you composed the music and "created the bass" lines for it!!! Then, ask any contemporary respected Jazz/Fusion player if they've heard the tune and what opinion/impact it had on them the first time they heard the tune. Then send me an e-mail and let me know what you think!! Then I can suggest at least 20+other tunes that Jaco composed or contributed to that will blow you away!!!! Not everyone has to like "his music", but not to appreciate or respect Jaco as a musician/bassist is a joke!!! Especially, if your a bass player!!!

Good luck!!

 

[skewh]

I think that with Jaco's music, you either "get it" or you don't. The first time I listened to Jaco, I was completely blown away, and instantly was a changed bass player; I "got" Jaco. But my brother, albeit he recognizes Jaco's chops and musicality, would much rather listen to Stanley Clarke. As far as innovative tracks go, I would take a listen to Charlie Parker's "Donna Lee," and then listen to Jaco's version on his first album. Then I would listen to "Portrait of Tracy," any live version of "Continuum," and "Chromatic Fantasy," a piece originally written by J.S. Bach for piano. All of these should be fine examples of melodic playing and killer chops. And if you don't get it after that, as Bruce stated, come back in twenty years!