He said he needs more than a 410 for outdoor gigs. It would have to be a pretty weird outdoor gig to not have a very deep space for the audience.
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BECAUSE THERE IS NO PA!!!
- Thread starter father of fires
- Start date
He said he needs more than a 410 for outdoor gigs. It would have to be a pretty weird outdoor gig to not have a very deep space for the audience.
He said he needs more than a 410 for outdoor gigs. It would have to be a pretty weird outdoor gig to not have a very deep space for the audience.
My outdoor gigs are only in 2 dimensions!
And don't get me wrong. I love a big, fat rig. I have one (or two). I could hook up my 410 cab, 210 cab, and 115 cab all to my SVT 2 Pro, to run it at 2 Ohms, and shake the pictures off my neighbors walls.
I just know that I don't NEED it.
I just know that I don't NEED it.
Oh, and for about the same money spent (compared to my SVT and those 3 cabs), it would be just as easy to DI into my mixer, fire up the 2 15" mains, 2 18" subs, and 2500W of PA and rattle the windows in every house for at least a block in every direction.
Interesting. I would also be interested in thoughts on the idea that IF there were complete, good PA systems which had reasonable ability to represent/reinforce not only the kick drum and the vocals, but also the bass and the guitars, would the recognization of of that facility result in lower stage volume such that allowed the PA system to do it's job for ALL aspects of the music???
Meaning, would the inclusion/existence of an actual appropriate PA result in higher overall sound volume. Lower overall sound volume. Or the same overall sound volume???
okcrum
in your chest
If there's no PA and you are playing louder than what you can get out of a 410 cab, you are drowning out the drummer (for the people at the back). If that's the sound you're going for, then I take back my earlier statements. Yes, you DO need a big rig for some of your gigs.
I played an outdoor gig without bass PA support a week or so ago. I used 4x10 and 2x15 with 800w, and through some miracle of quantum physics, managed not to drown out:
1) the drummer
2) the guitar
3) the vocals
even at the back.
The drummer has the same spectral advantage the guitar has, just more so:
ka5cvh.com/sound/musicchart1.pdf
Edit: to be accurate, the show used 2x2x10 over 2x1x15, the pairs angled about 40-50 degrees apart to reduce interference, biamped at 200-250 Hz crossover freq.
Of course.
The best show I ever played had a kick-ass PA. All the bands sounded huge no matter what gear they brought. The sound guy was a genius and all the bands were only as loud as they needed to be. I love those gigs. But, in my line of work they are few and far between.
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
- Sep 15, 2004
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- Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
Usually the same. Players tend to run at the same stage volume no matter what, no matter where. In the case of kiddie bands who are there to feed their inflated egos rather than make good music as often as not frustrated sound men simply turn the instrument feeds off.
One of the bands I play in is an 8 piece, horn band that does weddings and corporate functions. Everything is miked or d.i.'d. The funny thing is, as far as onstage mix and monitors goes is that the horn guys only want themselves and the vocals in their monitor. The drummer usually wants a wash of everything, the vocalist, just himself, the guitar player, me, and the keyboard guy, just vocals. This strange mixture somehow lends itself to a very usuable stage volume, where everyone is happy, more or less, as the gig goes on. The keyboard guy does an onstage mix, and periodically goes out in the audience to check overall volume and mix, but, since we play the same banquet halls and hotel ballrooms time and time again, he pretty much has it all figured out by now. The end result is a moderate overall volume that eveybody is happy with. A good PA can solve alot of problems, and I've never had to use more than a 215 on any of those gigs, and sometimes, just a 115 combo.
okcrum
in your chest
Even without PA support, I've used 1x15 with a big band (18 piece). It depends on the venue, how loud the band plays, a lot of things.
1x10 and 20w was, however, definitely not enough.
I mention those questions not as a foregone conclusion. I can imagine it is entirely possible said punk bands playing with the same volume as always but with more PA support, resulting in overall higher volume because they want to "feel" the music and keep it at the same intensity.
I'm not saying this is always true. But I can imagine it as a real possibility.
In the case of the OP's situation, and as they described it, was the context I had posed the questions. But yes, I tend to agree with you on the observation, both on the performer, and soundperson side.
I meant my questions and response with (specifically) the OP and their situation in mind. Sure, variety bands/etc... are a different situation. And I agree with you, a good PA can solve a lot of problems.
okcrum
in your chest
Very true. When you don't (for any number of reasons) have one, then you have to use what you do have creatively.
Almost all of the audience isn't going to care whether you have Meyer Sound or a cheap JBL PA on stilts, if the band sounds good in the room. Sad, but true.
I'm not sure this is sad but true. Hopefully it is good and true. It would be great to have cheap JBLs that always sounded great to the audience, but also (to trained ears) sounded great in the room. It means I would have to spend a lot less $$$ to get a sound that both I and the average audience would like.
But your comment about the audience's lack of discrimination on a very fine level has been noted... ...and largely agreed with.
- Jun 3, 2009
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- Bassgearu, Music Industry Consulting and Sales. Tech 21, NBE Corp, Sonosphere.
If I may, I'd like to bring this hugely popular discussion back to some reality so that it may continue with good stories and advice:
The "scene" the original poster was talking about was the current day, very typical ORIGINAL music scene found in most places that actually have original punk/hardcore/metal. Most of those clubs have adequate sound systems, but not stadium quality. There are typically 3-5 bands playing each night, 30 min to 1 hour max. The headlining band usually gets the sound check, but rarely shares its backline. So your drums and bass are set up quickly before you do your set and then get the heck off.
Most "sound guys" in these clubs are younger then the crap I just took, and really don't understand sound at all. They have to be threatened and bought off to relinquish the sound board to your own sound guy, unless you are a touring national act.
The sound guy will mic the drums and guitar. That automatically means he will spend a lot more time and attention to tweaking the sound and response because he has to make sure he just amplifies what the mic is hearing, and his ears hear exactly what it needs to be. Then he takes the bass direct (again, pre-effect or pre-amp, which is really an interesting phenomenon) and rolls off most of the highs and tries to make the club cabinets thump without sounding completely like one long fart, and that of course includes the kick drum thump mixed in. So what you get is crap.
Add to that in most of these medium to small clubs the stage volume is louder then normal, and of course the guitar and snare will just override everything else you hear. (I have rarely had the experience of a sound guy asking me if I'd like more bass in the monitor, because by and large THEY WON'T AND NEVER DO IT!) Since the low frequencies in clubs are typically coming from speakers near the floor, you can't hear squat. So a larger rig allows you to hear yourself, and also gives your mids and highs a little definition.
I play bass and am the leader of my band. I don't play extremely complicated lines, but I have several very important and interesting fills that make the songs (think simplified Graham Maby) and it just doesn't sound right without the mids and highs. So in order for me and the audience to hear it, I use my 4X10 cab and my Hartke LH500 (with tube pre-amp) on the stage. My rig according to most of the guys who do sound in the clubs I play is considered "large" or "big". To me, my LH1000 and 8X10 cabinet is large/big, but you would NEVER even try that in these typical punk/hardcore/metal original clubs.
On one of my last shows I tried to use my Silvertone 1484 tube bass amp (probably about 30 watts). Not only could I not hear myself, but the sound guy couldn't get it to reproduce well because he had no experience with it and also because he "had to take me direct." Which of course defeated the purpose of using the 1484 in the first place.
Lastly, very, very,very few original bands carry their own PA because of the typical show structure. Yeah, most of you here are probably in cover or tribute bands, and you bet, if you are getting paid to sound good doing other people's stuff, you better have your own PA, mixer and sound guy. And yes, overall 10,000W is much better then 500W. For the original poster's situation, it just won't be there.
(Oh, and yes, usually the only guy that ever gets told in a band to turn down is the bass player, even though when you get out in public without the bass it sounds completely like crapola...)
The "scene" the original poster was talking about was the current day, very typical ORIGINAL music scene found in most places that actually have original punk/hardcore/metal. Most of those clubs have adequate sound systems, but not stadium quality. There are typically 3-5 bands playing each night, 30 min to 1 hour max. The headlining band usually gets the sound check, but rarely shares its backline. So your drums and bass are set up quickly before you do your set and then get the heck off.
Most "sound guys" in these clubs are younger then the crap I just took, and really don't understand sound at all. They have to be threatened and bought off to relinquish the sound board to your own sound guy, unless you are a touring national act.
The sound guy will mic the drums and guitar. That automatically means he will spend a lot more time and attention to tweaking the sound and response because he has to make sure he just amplifies what the mic is hearing, and his ears hear exactly what it needs to be. Then he takes the bass direct (again, pre-effect or pre-amp, which is really an interesting phenomenon) and rolls off most of the highs and tries to make the club cabinets thump without sounding completely like one long fart, and that of course includes the kick drum thump mixed in. So what you get is crap.
Add to that in most of these medium to small clubs the stage volume is louder then normal, and of course the guitar and snare will just override everything else you hear. (I have rarely had the experience of a sound guy asking me if I'd like more bass in the monitor, because by and large THEY WON'T AND NEVER DO IT!) Since the low frequencies in clubs are typically coming from speakers near the floor, you can't hear squat. So a larger rig allows you to hear yourself, and also gives your mids and highs a little definition.
I play bass and am the leader of my band. I don't play extremely complicated lines, but I have several very important and interesting fills that make the songs (think simplified Graham Maby) and it just doesn't sound right without the mids and highs. So in order for me and the audience to hear it, I use my 4X10 cab and my Hartke LH500 (with tube pre-amp) on the stage. My rig according to most of the guys who do sound in the clubs I play is considered "large" or "big". To me, my LH1000 and 8X10 cabinet is large/big, but you would NEVER even try that in these typical punk/hardcore/metal original clubs.
On one of my last shows I tried to use my Silvertone 1484 tube bass amp (probably about 30 watts). Not only could I not hear myself, but the sound guy couldn't get it to reproduce well because he had no experience with it and also because he "had to take me direct." Which of course defeated the purpose of using the 1484 in the first place.
Lastly, very, very,very few original bands carry their own PA because of the typical show structure. Yeah, most of you here are probably in cover or tribute bands, and you bet, if you are getting paid to sound good doing other people's stuff, you better have your own PA, mixer and sound guy. And yes, overall 10,000W is much better then 500W. For the original poster's situation, it just won't be there.
(Oh, and yes, usually the only guy that ever gets told in a band to turn down is the bass player, even though when you get out in public without the bass it sounds completely like crapola...)
okcrum
in your chest
I'm not sure this is sad but true. Hopefully it is good and true. It would be great to have cheap JBLs that always sounded great to the audience, but also (to trained ears) sounded great in the room. It means I would have to spend a lot less $$$ to get a sound that both I and the average audience would like.
But your comment about the audience's lack of discrimination on a very fine level has been noted... ...and largely agreed with.
Well, sad because of the diminishing ROI on going for better PA gear, if gauged by audience perception. Thankfully that's not what drives most PA decisions.
I hear you. With the QSC stuff I'm using, and I know that is not by a longshot, the most expensive or "best" stuff out there, sometimes I wonder if I needed to use even these items... But dangint, I take pride in what I'm doing, within the constraints of what can be afforded, and carried. And even if the audience isn't listening closely, *I* am.
I hear you.
I too am interested in the very specific nature and situation the OP has posited. Yes. Let's have more discussion on that. Sorry if I somehow derailed it.
I played an outdoor gig without bass PA support a week or so ago. I used 4x10 and 2x15 with 800w, and through some miracle of quantum physics, managed not to drown out:
1) the drummer
2) the guitar
3) the vocals
even at the back.
The drummer has the same spectral advantage the guitar has, just more so:
ka5cvh.com/sound/musicchart1.pdf
Edit: to be accurate, the show used 2x2x10 over 2x1x15, the pairs angled about 40-50 degrees apart to reduce interference, biamped at 200-250 Hz crossover freq.
I didn't say "no BASS PA support". I quoted the guy that I was responding to, who said "no PA support".
And, again, I say, if you were actually playing louder than what you could have gotten out of just your 410, and if your drummer had no PA support either, then you were drowning him out. But, it sounds like that's not the case. From the way you qualified your statement, it implies that the drummer did have at least some PA support. Thus, you were not actually responding to the situation I was talking about.
I can't access that PDF from work - the site is blocked. But, if you're trying to tell me that drums carry better than bass, I have to ask, what drummer are you playing with that doesn't use low toms and a kick drum? Those are in the same frequency range that (most) bass players play in.
So, maybe I should spell it out in more detail for you. If you are playing louder than what a decent 410 cab will do, and your drummer's low tom(s) are not amplified through a PA system of some type, then you are drowning out your drummer's low tom(s).
And as far as I'm concerned, even if you're only drowning out part of another player's instrument, you're still drowning out that player. Do you like it if the guitar player cranks his rig and starts playing low on the neck and drowns out whatever you are doing on your high parts? Would you like it if you had a keyboard player that started playing walking bass lines with his left hand and cranked himself up so loud that it drowned out some of what you were doing? I bet, in either of those situations you would either get them to turn down, not play those parts, or you would turn yourself up, if at all possible, wouldn't you? Well, if you're playing a gig with no PA support (as was originally stated), the drummer doesn't really have the option to just "turn up". So, why are you playing louder than what a 410 will do?
And if the gig you were talking about DID have PA support sufficient for ALL the drummer's drums to be heard and sound good, then it seems to me that that PA would have also served to handle the bass for the FOH. And, thus, no NEED for a big bass rig. Just an "I want".
