BECAUSE THERE IS NO PA!!!

[Sundogue]

I hear you. With the QSC stuff I'm using, and I know that is not by a longshot, the most expensive or "best" stuff out there, sometimes I wonder if I needed to use even these items... But dangint, I take pride in what I'm doing, within the constraints of what can be afforded, and carried. And even if the audience isn't listening closely, *I* am.



I hear you.

You know it's really interesting that the general public isn't as discerning about our sound, or as aware of subtle differences, as we are...unless it isn't there.

Kind of like...nobody notices the bass or thinks just how important it is...until it's gone.

The general public does care about quality even if they don't know what it takes to produce it. They know that crap sound is crap even if they don't know what it takes to make it sound good or even great.

It's like the old saying..."Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but we can all pretty much agree on ugly."

The audience does care and they know ugly sound. They just may not know what it takes to make it great. And these days people in the audience are more aware than ever what to expect in listening to good music. Now my teenage sons, on the other hand, who go and listen to hardcore screemo don't know sh*t about sound and also couldn't care less. They just want it loud enough to go deaf and unfortunately think going deaf from loud music is kind of cool. My one son is going deaf because of it. That is just stupid. But he is a teenager, so of course he knows everything.

I've had lots of people in the audience who aren't musicians make very astute comments about our sound and the instrumentation. We need to give more credit to our audience. Not everyone in the room is drunk, tone-deaf and stupid. Though, for some of you, maybe they are. Just sayin'.

Oh...by the way, while I like it loud, there are varying degrees of loudness and we also know how to control volume. Just because we have a PA doesn't mean it's full on (the places we typically play couldn't handle it if we did). Using a PA doesn't mean we don't know how to use the volume control any less than those with a large bass rig.

 

[MikeyThrottler]

Another advantage I've found to "larger" rigs is height. 410s can certainly get loud, but in the typical "standing about a foot from the snare" situation found in smaller clubs, taller cabs make it a lot easier to hear your attack, since all the speakers aren't at your feet. I typically play through either a Mesa PH412 or an Ampeg 610, and while I wouldn't classify either as huge, they sure make it a lot easier to hear your mids and highs.

(And yes, I'm aware that I could set a smaller cab on a road case, but I dislike losing the connection with the stage floor).

 

[silky smoove]

Congratulations! You are officially in a band with The Loudest Drummer In The World.

However, your DB750 and 2 15's is not a "big" rig (IMO, anyway), so you still haven't told us anything that would justify a "need" for a big rig. If your 2-15" setup keeps up with the drummer in a small, enclosed space, it's definitely going to keep up anywhere else (that has no PA).

You're missing the point. You have been arguing that a 210 combo will overpower a drummer in a practice space, and furthermore you've been saying it like it's an accepted fact.

I'm explaining a situation that contradicts what you're saying, simply by virtue of the fact that more firepower than a 210 combo has not gotten the job done. Not in theory, not on paper, not on TB conjecture, but in a real world context.

So please get off your high horse and accept the fact that what works for you may not work for others.

 

[StuartV]

So please get off your high horse and accept the fact that what works for you may not work for others.

I understand that. My apologies for sounding so high-horsey. I know I come off that way some times (or a lot ).

I wish I lived close enough to come to one of your rehearsals. As a drummer myself, I would like to check out another drummer that plays loud enough to overpower a decent 210 combo. Just for my own education. I auditioned on bass with a metal band recently and that drummer was the loudest player I've ever "played" with. But, even he I would have been fine with if I had brought my 210. As it was, I was an idiot and only brought my Promethean 1x10 combo for that and, while I could hear me and the drummer could hear me, it definitely was not enough.

My BAM is 350W through 2 10"s. It's hard for me to imagine how a single human being, hitting a regular acoustic drum, even with corps style sticks, or a 24" kick, could be putting out enough sound to be louder than that. I mean, (from a physics point of view) the energy in 350W RMS of power, even with all the inefficiencies that are inherent in amplifiers and loudspeakers, is still a LOT. My gut reaction is that it's kind of like telling me that a guy on a bicycle can go faster than somebody on a 30HP motorcycle (which is about a modern 250cc sportbike). But, I'll take your word for it.... and still note that you don't need a "big" rig to be louder than him.

 

[Pandafist]

I've never played with a single drummer that WOULDNT overpower a 210.

Not one.
So... yeah.
Stuart, have you ever considered that maybe you just ... oh idk ... play a different type of music than us?

:idea: Probably one that isn't nearly as hard-hitting.

Or are you really just the kind of guy who cant accept some bands and audiences WANT their music to be deafeningly loud.
It's called "rock and roll," you and Sundogue should check it out sometime.

 

[wcriley]

To reinforce the "drowning out the drummer" points made by others:

I recently tried to "mix" a band through their PA-on-a-stick. Just vocal mics and a kick mic. Very similar situation to the original post.

Git players used a 4x12 and a 2x12. Bass player had a 4x10. Not what I would call "big rigs". The drummer was a heavy hitter.

The guitars and bass guitar mixed themselves quite well. But by the time I got the vocals up on top, the drums were pretty much inaudible beyond the front of the stage.

 

[father of fires]

There are just too many variables to say who is right about how to sound the best, with what gear, in what venues, etc, etc, etc.

But, I feel that if you carry enough firepower you'll always be able to put up a fight no matter what the situation. That's why I always have live grenades in my gig bag.

 

[Implosion]

My BAM is 350W through 2 10"s. It's hard for me to imagine how a single human being, hitting a regular acoustic drum, even with corps style sticks, or a 24" kick, could be putting out enough sound to be louder than that. I mean, (from a physics point of view) the energy in 350W RMS of power, even with all the inefficiencies that are inherent in amplifiers and loudspeakers, is still a LOT.

Even with the most efficient speakers 90% of the power is turned in to heat, so we are quite far from 350 watts

But more on the topic: I used to do stints in my friend's band and those guys had a seriously loud drummer. He pounded snare rim-shots so that the rims eventually bended to unusable shape. That was loud.

 

[gastric]

I agree with a variety of points made here. I currently own a few loud bass heads (MESA, Aguilar) run through an Accugroove Whappo Jr. Most of the local gigs provide small PA for vox only, maybe kick if you're lucky. I have no problem pushing my bass audibly in these gigs, it's plenty loud. But the drums always suffer.

I've also taken it upon myself to build a small PA centered around my laptop, M-Audio 2626, Reaper, and a Peavey IPR1600 I used to use for my pre/power amp bass rig. I've basically taken my small recording rig, ran it to a power amp, and nabbed a couple used EV iForce 2x15+horn cabs. We use it for practice, sometimes even run all the instruments through it via softamps and VST so we don't have to lug all our gear. And for future gigs will start hauling one of those iForce cabs all of the time to push a fully mic'ed 4 piece drum kit through. No, it doesn't have bone crushing subs. But yes, I fully expect it to carry the drums so they're not totally lost. Need those thumping drums to help drive the energy.

What I'm not looking forward to is having the rest of the bands want to amp their drums as well. Not that I'm stingy, but we usually open for more established local bands and while I try to stay around to support the other acts I don't always want to stay till closing time. But we'll see what happens. Maybe it'll be our ticket to more gigs, at which point I'll call it a win for sure.

 

[StuartV]

I've never played with a single drummer that WOULDNT overpower a 210.

Not one.
So... yeah.
Stuart, have you ever considered that maybe you just ... oh idk ... play a different type of music than us?

:idea: Probably one that isn't nearly as hard-hitting.

Or are you really just the kind of guy who cant accept some bands and audiences WANT their music to be deafeningly loud.
It's called "rock and roll," you and Sundogue should check it out sometime.

It's not about what kind of music I play. It's about the fact that unamplified drums (read that as low toms, if you need to, to get my point) don't carry very far. And you don't need a big bass rig to carry farther than what those drums will. I'm a drummer (and a trombone player, and a really cr*ppy bass player). I pay attention to what other drummers are doing when I go hear people play. Low toms do NOT go very far without amplification.

If you are playing deafeningly loud, and your drums are not amplified, then the people at the back are not hearing them (all). If that's the sound you want, then rock on, brother. Or maybe the style of the music you play really only uses snare, kick, and cymbals, and you do mic the kick. Again, rock on.

It's not about what I play. But it is about my preference to not care for music where I can't hear all the instruments (because some are deafeningly loud and drowing out others). And not play in a band if what I'm doing is not going to be heard. Or, more to the point, not play in a band where the other band members don't care that I'm not being heard. Which, ultimately is what this whole thread comes down to. In *most* circumstances, if the bass player says they NEED (not want, NEED) a BIG rig, after considering all the points presented here, that amounts to saying that they don't care that everybody else in the band isn't heard.

If you care that everybody in the band is heard, then you will play at a volume that allows the drummer (ALL his or her drums) to be heard by everybody (including the people at the back). And for that, you don't need a big rig (i.e. bigger than a 410 or 215). If the drummer is being amplified so that ALL his or her drums can be heard, then that PA should be able to handle your bass, too. So, again, you don't NEED a big rig.

All that said, I understand that there are times where you play and you just know that most of the crowd is only going to hear the snare, some cymbals, and maybe some kick. And you, as a band, decide that that's just going to have to do. Your call. But I wonder - would you do the same thing if your choice was to play knowing they the crowd would be able to hear drums, guitar and vox, but you were going to have to play through a 1x12 combo? Maybe you would, and good on ya'. But, I have a feeling of lot of the "I have to have a BIG bass rig" guys would not put up with that as their "normal" gigging situation. In which case, how hypocriticial is it to expect the drummer to do so?

 

[Pandafist]

TLDR

 

[StuartV]

Not surprised. It would be kind of like actually listening to the drummer.

 

[Pandafist]

We keep perfect time, and my drummer never complains. The audience and all the band members can hear him... because we know what we are doing.
You're welcome to come see any of my bands live, FWIW.
But I get the feeling it might be a little too :rawk: for you.

Sorta in the same way I'm PRETTY f-n confident I wouldn't like your band.


Bygones?

 

[Queg]

If I may, I'd like to bring this hugely popular discussion back to some reality so that it may continue with good stories and advice: ----

All so very true. But to be fair, the scenario you described can be handled by what most will call a medium sized rig - a 750 watt rms amp + a GOOD QUALITY 410 cab or 2x15 rig would do it. I still believe that some of the folks using larger "monster" rigs are using inefficient cab designs or an amalgamation of poor quality equipment. An Aguilar DB750 powering a fEarful (2x15) 1515+66 cab is easily as loud (if not louder) than an SVT + fridge..

 

[okcrum]

I didn't say "no BASS PA support". I quoted the guy that I was responding to, who said "no PA support".

And, again, I say, if you were actually playing louder than what you could have gotten out of just your 410, and if your drummer had no PA support either, then you were drowning him out. But, it sounds like that's not the case. From the way you qualified your statement, it implies that the drummer did have at least some PA support. Thus, you were not actually responding to the situation I was talking about.

I can't access that PDF from work - the site is blocked. But, if you're trying to tell me that drums carry better than bass, I have to ask, what drummer are you playing with that doesn't use low toms and a kick drum? Those are in the same frequency range that (most) bass players play in.

So, maybe I should spell it out in more detail for you. If you are playing louder than what a decent 410 cab will do, and your drummer's low tom(s) are not amplified through a PA system of some type, then you are drowning out your drummer's low tom(s).

And as far as I'm concerned, even if you're only drowning out part of another player's instrument, you're still drowning out that player. Do you like it if the guitar player cranks his rig and starts playing low on the neck and drowns out whatever you are doing on your high parts? Would you like it if you had a keyboard player that started playing walking bass lines with his left hand and cranked himself up so loud that it drowned out some of what you were doing? I bet, in either of those situations you would either get them to turn down, not play those parts, or you would turn yourself up, if at all possible, wouldn't you? Well, if you're playing a gig with no PA support (as was originally stated), the drummer doesn't really have the option to just "turn up". So, why are you playing louder than what a 410 will do?

And if the gig you were talking about DID have PA support sufficient for ALL the drummer's drums to be heard and sound good, then it seems to me that that PA would have also served to handle the bass for the FOH. And, thus, no NEED for a big bass rig. Just an "I want".

No PA on this gig for anything but vocals. Guitar was 100w and 4x10.

There's a lot of drum energy at frequencies the bass is not in, is my point.

 

[Sundogue]

I've never played with a single drummer that WOULDNT overpower a 210.

Not one.
So... yeah.
Stuart, have you ever considered that maybe you just ... oh idk ... play a different type of music than us?

:idea: Probably one that isn't nearly as hard-hitting.

Or are you really just the kind of guy who cant accept some bands and audiences WANT their music to be deafeningly loud.
It's called "rock and roll," you and Sundogue should check it out sometime.

Been there, done that. I've been playing for over 30 years.

I played in bands where my "stage" rigs consisted of an SVT through two Acoustic 301 cabs. Another that used a Crown power amp into four 15's and a horn loaded 18". As recently as four years ago I played through a CS800X (bridged) driving a Peavey 412 cab. And ALL of those still had additional PA support with way more power than that.

I've played in front of crowds in excess of 20,000 people with PA's that had side wash monitors larger than my existing PA and the side wash had EVERYTHING run through it.

What you do is nothing new to me. I don't need that onstage any longer and if you don't play through a PA and rely solely on your rig (pick a rig, I don't care what you use) my bass is louder through our PA than your onstage rig could ever be.

Do I play the same type of music as you? Probably not. I'm guessing AC/DC (at one time one of the loudest touring bands ever) was louder than anything either of us have ever played. That's the kind of music I still play. I love to rock and I do love it loud. I've just gotten wiser with age. I don't get my rocks off pretending to take my angst out on my bass, as if playing loud is anything meaningful in and of itself.

Be condescending to me if you want to. But what you do is old hat to me. My generation invented LOUD. Good luck trying to redefine it with your simple bass rig.

 

[Bass_Pounder]

I've played in front of crowds in excess of 20,000 people with PA's that had side wash monitors larger than my existing PA and the side wash had EVERYTHING run through it.

I know what you mean............I opened for Skid Row a while back, and the size of the drummers monitor was huge, let alone the side fills. They also had everything running through them, and if you got too close, it would make you sterile

 

[Sundogue]

I know what you mean............I opened for Skid Row a while back, and the size of the drummers monitor was huge, let alone the side fills. They also had everything running through them, and if you got too close, it would make you sterile

Yeah, but I'll bet some of the people who posted here still think their rig is louder than that.

I really do not know why anyone is having a problem understanding how freaking loud a PA can be compared to a stage bass rig.

And that was the OP's point. He needs a big rig BECAUSE THERE IS NO PA!!! (his words, not mine). All I mention is to get a PA then and be done with it...and all the big rig lovers jump all over me like I don't have a clue what loud is.

Ugh! It's like trying to talk to my teenage boys. Yeah, I don't have a clue. Go ahead people...crank up your big bass rigs and have at it thinking you're all that and more. Some of you guys are getting into a pissing contest, but you're facing the wind.

 

[Bass_Pounder]

Yeah, but I'll bet some of the people who posted here still think their rig is louder than that.

I really do not know why anyone is having a problem understanding how freaking loud a PA can be compared to a stage bass rig.
And that was the OP's point. He needs a big rig BECAUSE THERE IS NO PA!!! (his words, not mine). All I mention is to get a PA then and be done with it...and all the big rig lovers jump all over me like I don't have a clue what loud is.

Ugh! It's like trying to talk to my teenage boys. Yeah, I don't have a clue. Go ahead people...crank up your big bass rigs and have at it thinking you're all that and more. Some of you guys are getting into a pissing contest, but you're facing the wind.

I'm with ya on that.

Sure.....there are people that love really loud, deafening music. They should be the audience though, and NOT the musicians.

I love having my hearing intact after 30 years of playing. Let he P.A. do the heavy work, not the stage gear.

And for the record - I use a Carvin B1500 into Mesa cabs. Granted, I only put the volume on 2-3 though.

Also, I don't belive for one minute the guys saying that they would prefer playing without a P.A., at ground level, to 20 people over doing the "big gigs"

 

[zachoff]

A couple bars around town have no PA and I'm happy to have my SVT/810 happily filling the room below half volume. I have a PA... 300W & two old Traynor 4x8s. It sucks for bass. The SVT/810 gives me exactly the sound I want and the vocals sound just fine through the PA.