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BECAUSE THERE IS NO PA!!!
- Thread starter father of fires
- Start date
At what point does a bass rig no longer carry the room (equally with the drummer)?
Whatever point that is (and I'm sure it's different for each situation) is when a PA should be utilized. Because a bass player can keep increasing the size of his rig, but at some point it gives diminishing returns on the sound of the band.
At some point letting the power of a PA handle the low end is a much better way to go about it, if logic plays into it at all.
And like many have said, I also like to feel the bass, not just hear it. But given my situation and the fact that deep lows are omnidirectional, letting the PA give it to me and the audience is the very reason I do not need my stage rig to provide it.
Anyone who would ever be up on my stage playing with my band would be quite surprised at how my 210 sounds with that kind of support. My 210 only needs to provide the lower mids on up, so it does not need to be huge. Outdoors I only bring another 210 because the PA just gets cranked even more.
But I certainly understand the need for a bigger rig if you don't have that kind of low end support. My point was and still is...at some point it just makes better sense to let the PA do the work for you, much like it does to let your rig do it for you instead of the bass through crappy monitors.
Still, the whole point of this thread was that the OP said he needed a big rig because of no PA. I wasn't trying to turn this into a "Big Rig" thread. I was only trying to understand the justification for it when PA's can do it so much easier. So, if you don't have a PA, why not get one?
For some I guess it isn't feasible. I really feel bad for any local/regional music scene that literally finds itself in the basement only.
Whatever point that is (and I'm sure it's different for each situation) is when a PA should be utilized. Because a bass player can keep increasing the size of his rig, but at some point it gives diminishing returns on the sound of the band.
At some point letting the power of a PA handle the low end is a much better way to go about it, if logic plays into it at all.
And like many have said, I also like to feel the bass, not just hear it. But given my situation and the fact that deep lows are omnidirectional, letting the PA give it to me and the audience is the very reason I do not need my stage rig to provide it.
Anyone who would ever be up on my stage playing with my band would be quite surprised at how my 210 sounds with that kind of support. My 210 only needs to provide the lower mids on up, so it does not need to be huge. Outdoors I only bring another 210 because the PA just gets cranked even more.
But I certainly understand the need for a bigger rig if you don't have that kind of low end support. My point was and still is...at some point it just makes better sense to let the PA do the work for you, much like it does to let your rig do it for you instead of the bass through crappy monitors.
Still, the whole point of this thread was that the OP said he needed a big rig because of no PA. I wasn't trying to turn this into a "Big Rig" thread. I was only trying to understand the justification for it when PA's can do it so much easier. So, if you don't have a PA, why not get one?
For some I guess it isn't feasible. I really feel bad for any local/regional music scene that literally finds itself in the basement only.
There aren't any musicians I would ever play with that would rehearse with a Marshall stack cranked (or on stage for that matter). But then again I don't hang out with teenagers who are just starting out and getting drunk on all that power for the first time (not that it's reserved for teenagers, as some choose to never grow up). Don't get me wrong...I don't think anyone should "grow up".
My teenage boys go to these venues all the time where four or five bands play and it's all raw, sloppy music intended to be loud and in your face. The body slamming and all that is just a way to let loose and burn off the energy. Cool for them and the bands. Really, I get that. I've dropped them off and hung around for a while. They aren't really all that loud decibel wise. It's more just a jumble of noise that causes ear fatigue (not the music, the mix). Some bands seem loud because of the distorted mix (even when run through a PA) when in reality I've heard louder bands through clean PA's.
Still if you want it REAL LOUD, blow the roof off with a PA. Only the subs need to be robust in size and power. The rest doesn't. A decent PA for low end doesn't need to take up a ton of real estate in a trailer or van, or the venue. Heck, our subs sometimes are put together in the middle on their sides and are used as additional stage space!
Again, a definate +1 from me too. To be fair though, I love my big amp and even when in a venue with a good pa I still feel happier having an 8x10 behind me.
Where have you been? In this thread, we live in a dystopian society where there is no front of house (outside of vocals which doesn't require much juice to be heard).
I realize that. But even if you are just putting vocals in the PA, there are still ridiculous amounts of volume going on out there.
There have been many discussions on TB about stage volume and how ridiculous it gets in many situations.
I have never bought into the thinking that you have to feel your pants move to get into it and really rock. That's ridiculous.
This is just my opinion, I realize that there are many that disagree, but I'm just offering another way of thinking, that's all. As with all topics on TB, you will do what works for you and I will do what works for me.
Making my pants move was not part of the original argument. It popped up as a side effect of any thread making a case for big amps. I agree with you that this is not a requirement for rock and roll.
Unfortunately, loud stage volume IS a reality when you have little FOH support for reasons that have been discussed over and over in this thread.
Aren't they overkill considering a decent PA system includes adequate stage monitors (ie please don't use "the backline to hear myself on stage" excuse)? By your own viewpoint, shouldn't you be using a mic'd 1x10 cab (for "tone") or going DI with no cab at all..?
I do go DI. No amp. just 2 rack spaces. A sansamp and a tuner. I use in ear monitors and I custom built my subs with the ports in the back to mave a little air in my direction. I have no doubt it wouldn't work for most of you but it sounds GREAT from the audience
I do go DI. No amp. just 2 rack spaces. A sansamp and a tuner. I use in ear monitors and I custom built my subs with the ports in the back to mave a little air in my direction. I have no doubt it wouldn't work for most of you but it sounds GREAT from the audience
Still not going to be the same... a bigger cab still sounds different miced then a small one, even close miced, depends on the sound you want.
You lost me at "decent PA system". There is no PA police that forces clubs to have adequate gear.
Amen, amen, amen.
As others have said, you don't have to be playing metal/punk. I play with a Motown/R&B band - PA is for vocals and kick drum only. They do some Stevie Ray Vaughan tunes, and often play loud. Not long ago, the guitarist looks at my 6x10 and says "wow, you're bringing a concert rig?" Meanwhile, he's using a 4x12! I need to give him a lesson in physics.
Anyway, I bring a 6x10 and at least 600 watts to every gig except if I know for certain it'll be a small venue. And with my hard rock band, 600 watts often isn't enough to compete with the guitarist's 100W Mesa 4x12... I've gotta bridge the power amp.
Congratulations! You are officially in a band with The Loudest Drummer In The World.
However, your DB750 and 2 15's is not a "big" rig (IMO, anyway), so you still haven't told us anything that would justify a "need" for a big rig. If your 2-15" setup keeps up with the drummer in a small, enclosed space, it's definitely going to keep up anywhere else (that has no PA).
If there's no PA and you are playing louder than what you can get out of a 410 cab, you are drowning out the drummer (for the people at the back). If that's the sound you're going for, then I take back my earlier statements. Yes, you DO need a big rig for some of your gigs.
I've seen some pretty big 15" cabs that when doubled up would constitute what I consider to be a big rig.
Not to mention that 2x15's meet the requirements for the big cabs clubs.
Not every big rig has to be a "RIG OF DOOM!"
If there's no PA and you are playing louder than what you can get out of a 410 cab, you are drowning out the drummer (for the people at the back). If that's the sound you're going for, then I take back my earlier statements. Yes, you DO need a big rig for some of your gigs.
Keep in mind that many clubs are not very deep.
1 15 has about the same surface area (I said "about"! 
as 2 10's. So, 2 15s is about the same as 1 410 cab. Just in my opinion, that is what I would call a medium-sized rig. Anything bigger, though, and I would definitely agree on calling it "big". I.e. a 610, or a 410 plus 115, etc..
as 2 10's. So, 2 15s is about the same as 1 410 cab. Just in my opinion, that is what I would call a medium-sized rig. Anything bigger, though, and I would definitely agree on calling it "big". I.e. a 610, or a 410 plus 115, etc..
