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BECAUSE THERE IS NO PA!!!

As for the local scene, I agree too many bands are selling themselves short. But I never brought a PA to CBGBs, and that was thirty years ago. Depends on the space, but mostly in original clubs you have to deal with a house sound system, just the way it goes.


Yeah, I'm proud of Asbury, but I would challenge all ya'll out there to give me more then two places on the planet that have always had a thriving original scene, and I would love for you to give me a place that has produced major bands as long as we have. We started with the Four Seasons, had several big hit bands through to the Looking Glass. Then you hit the Bruce and Southside era, followed by Smithereens and Bon Jovi, followed by Monster Magnet, Vitamin C and Whirling Dervishes and also, the artist now known as Lady GaGa did a lot of local shows in NJ long before she hit big.

Just sayin... ;)
 
The "gig" descriptions sound very much like when I first started out (and still eerily similar to my band's rehearsals). That is not a slight...just the way it is. I can't help it if these gigs sound like my rehearsals, but they do.

If your rehearsals have an audience counted by tens and you play a full set then I agree with you. The five songs for four people is exaggeration to say at least. Allthough I can't speak for the OP as I've never played in similar circumstances or even without the dredded PA-support. But I can relate to him as the "scene" is quite similar.

I'm talking about playing to a small amount of people, when I'm sure everyone here (including yourself) would rather do the exact same thing but perform more music on a given night and for hundreds, if not thousands of people on a regular basis instead. Wouldn't that "sharing" be even better if shared with more people? And getting some cash would be nice too, wouldn't it? Or do you think getting paid would somehow cheapen the experience?

It wouldn't cheapen the experience in anyway and it would be absolutely great to play for larger audiences. It's just not realistic to think that this kind of music would ever be appealing to the masses so we are satisfied with what have. We'd be delusional to think that we could do exactly the same thing with larger following.

Again, sorry to ruffle feathers here. Some simply deserved it, many did not, so I apologize to you/them. But I'm not sure what bothers most in this thread more...That I get it, or that you don't want me to get it because this whole "underground, misunderstood" thing is what drives you to do what you do. After all, if there wasn't the struggle and your music caught on and became the new Top 40 with big time concerts, popularity and boat loads of money, you'd probably consider yourselves sell-outs and all of it's appeal would be lost.

The whole concept of suffering for your art is BS. I'm also a fine artist (paintings and sculpture) and have been one as long as I've been a musician. I struggled early on with my art and music. I had that same attitude, that my work was more pure when I wasn't getting paid for it and I struggled and was driven simply by my passion for it. The less money I made and the harder the struggle the more I felt like an "artist". What a load of crap. Having been on both sides of the fence I can tell you what I tell students in my art workshops. The more money you make and the less struggling you do, the freer you become with your thoughts and spirit. Being relieved of the hassles and worries opens your mind to being more creative and more passionate. The more money I make, the more passionate I've become about my work. Now it's all about being totally creative and I love doing what I do far more now that I make a lot of money at it. It's so easy to believe you are on the right path when it's the only path you've been on. But living life from the other side is quite revealing.

And this is what bother me in the thread or in threads that have been somewhat similar. Of course there are some people who believe in the concept of the starving artist and believe me, I'm not one of those.

The thing that I find odd is that some people can't seem to grasp why we choose to do the things we do and by free choice. Money is not an issue for me when it comes to playing. I've got an engineering day job that allows me to do just what I want with my playing. I don't have to think about the financial aspect more than that our expenses are paid by the gig organizer. I don't need more and my band mates share the same idea.

We have no "underground, misunderstood" thing that drives us. Hell, it's quite hard to be underground and misunderstood when your a suburbia dad with a mortgage and a nine to five job. Nor we wouldn't suffer from a sell-out feeling if success would grab us by our ankles, no way. I believe that sort of description is fitting for people who use the phrase: "that was in my (insert genre here) phase".
 
Yeah, I'm proud of Asbury, but I would challenge all ya'll out there to give me more then two places on the planet that have always had a thriving original scene, and I would love for you to give me a place that has produced major bands as long as we have. We started with the Four Seasons, had several big hit bands through to the Looking Glass. Then you hit the Bruce and Southside era, followed by Smithereens and Bon Jovi, followed by Monster Magnet, Vitamin C and Whirling Dervishes and also, the artist now known as Lady GaGa did a lot of local shows in NJ long before she hit big.

Just sayin... ;)


Dude... listen to yourself.
You sound like a complete moron.
 
As for the local scene, I agree too many bands are selling themselves short. But I never brought a PA to CBGBs, and that was thirty years ago. Depends on the space, but mostly in original clubs you have to deal with a house sound system, just the way it goes.


Yeah, I'm proud of Asbury, but I would challenge all ya'll out there to give me more then two places on the planet that have always had a thriving original scene, and I would love for you to give me a place that has produced major bands as long as we have. We started with the Four Seasons, had several big hit bands through to the Looking Glass. Then you hit the Bruce and Southside era, followed by Smithereens and Bon Jovi, followed by Monster Magnet, Vitamin C and Whirling Dervishes and also, the artist now known as Lady GaGa did a lot of local shows in NJ long before she hit big.

Just sayin... ;)

Ask 100 people to name one place on earth that just screams, "Thriving music scene"...

I'd bet no one would say New Jersey. Well, OK...obviously one would. ;)
 
What have we all learned here?

There are some bands that are actually going for the sound of unamplified drums mixed with a bass fridge and amp set to 11.

As my grandmother (RIP) would say, "that's why there's chocolate and vanilla."
 
I've played many clubs in London that don't have an in house system, with 800 watts and two 410's some of the places were still difficult to get a fundamental spread, bass frequencies require a lot of power to reproduce, that's why your guitarist can get by with a 50 watt but you need 300 to match it, you can't cheat mother nature, bass needs a lot of power and large cabs for good spread and reproduction, I wouldn't consider buying anything under 300 watts for good reason, I don't want to have to drive it to the max to match the stage volume and hear myself, manufacturers ratings are optimistic to say the least (I've blown and returned quite a bit of 'high end' gear that was well overrated from the start!) If you intend gigging I wouldn't bother with the small stuff, 300 or over to start and then I'd be looking at 15's or 12's to utilise that, to be honest, if I see a basser show up with little boxes, I consider it extreme laziness unless your playing small and I mean small places, I also like the exercise required to lump it into the place, when I started playing bass, I accepted the fact I'd have to move my @ss and drop some bodyweight, small price for a big sound :hyper:
 
As for the local scene, I agree too many bands are selling themselves short. But I never brought a PA to CBGBs, and that was thirty years ago. Depends on the space, but mostly in original clubs you have to deal with a house sound system, just the way it goes.


Yeah, I'm proud of Asbury, but I would challenge all ya'll out there to give me more then two places on the planet that have always had a thriving original scene, and I would love for you to give me a place that has produced major bands as long as we have. We started with the Four Seasons, had several big hit bands through to the Looking Glass. Then you hit the Bruce and Southside era, followed by Smithereens and Bon Jovi, followed by Monster Magnet, Vitamin C and Whirling Dervishes and also, the artist now known as Lady GaGa did a lot of local shows in NJ long before she hit big.

Just sayin... ;)

New Jersey is a crossroads state. You have roughly 50 or so miles that separate New York City from Philadelphia. You have some pretty major universities in the area, and one of the biggest vacation/tourism areas in the country in the Jersey shore... this place has a jumping music scene. There are plenty of opportunities here, one only needs to look for them. I lived in California, North Carolina, Georgia, Germany, Hungary, the Middle East... and the New Jersey music scene stands out. I am not say it is better than other places... it is just a great place to experience music as a player and a lover of music.

I get kinda defensive of my home state... http://jerseydoesntstink.com/
 
I just want to say this for all of the underground punk and metal guys. Or the guys playing basement shows. Or the bar bands playing dives. Or the poorly planned outdoor benefit shows. Or hardcore shows in 4 H clubs.

Ahem.

We have to use big amps and cabs because none of the shows we play have PA support.

I rarely see this mentioned. I play original music and have resigned myself to a life of playing awesome music with awesome bands in less than awesome venues. Vocals and sometimes kick drum are the only things that get miked up.

Then every time I see a "why are there big amps?" thread, I wait patiently for someone to mention this and they never do.


/rant.

Though my band is niether punk nor metal we do play a lot of these types of shows. Mostly bars/pubs & parties. Awesome original music in less than awesome venues. Most everywhere we play has a PA provided, and if they dont then thats ok, because I always bring my own PA support.
 
wordswordswords

I keep seeing walls of text, yet all I can hear is...

Invalid Link Removed

No offense, no slight intended, etc. etc.

Anyway, now that thats out of the way.... heres another perspective of why to NOT bring a PA, since I have more of the "not true gigging" experience of playing with your buddy-bands in dive bars for sparse crowds and getting paid in beer.

You'll find many a musician who shows up to their own gigs without equipment. No amp, no cab, no guitar, no bass, no mic, etc. etc. When you're feeling generous or pitiful you loan out your piece, keep an eye on it, grab it the instant their set is over.

Do you really want to go through this whole hassle if you bring a PA??? Suddenly the other 2 or 3 bands playing that night want to use your PA, so they can run their own sound, because "The soundguy in this place always sucks!" (often said by the less-experienced / less-polished bands.) Then they want to mic their whole drumkit. Then bassist or guitarist want to try running stereo because they read about it on a forum. Then suddenly when it comes to tear down, it appears all those guys you let use your PA decided to wrap up your cables and take them back to Jersey in their tour trailer (Jersey shout what up!)

I was in a band that owned our own PA, initially we'd mic the whole band and the whole drumkit, but once we found that other bands would have to depend on it we cut out the guitars and bass, and myself and my guitarists added some speakers to our rigs. We'd allow other bands to use it for vocals and simple drums, just for consistencies sake (generally if they brought their PA but we set up ours, they'd just use ours. Don't think I've ever had a band insist on us tearing down our PA so they could set theirs up.) Its also not time effective to be doing the ole' switcheroo all the time with a full PA. But dragging a guitar rig or bass rig on stage is easy and quick.

Since I don't plan on coming back to this poo-flinging match, I'll tell you what (some) of the bars' mindsets are too. We've played shows for places that were on the fence about bringing in metal music... usually you'd work it out that the bands get a cut of the door, but being the first opening local band, you often get skipped over. If we hear we're only getting $30 from the total cut of the night, we're more likely to give it to the touring band trying to support themselves, or spend it at the bar on shots. We all work full time in non-music fields, we're in the mindset that if we didn't have a musical outlet that we'd go BONKERS at our day jobs, so "stickin it" to bar owners who are "profiting off our hard work" isn't the highest on my priority list. If the bar owners and bartenders are happy, the band is happy, the audience is happy, then really why does anyone else think its their business?

This "you people are killing the scene" thing has to stop. Anyone who whines about that, I'd just like to tell them to face reality and stop trying to make a living by playing music. Dayjobs suck, thats why its called "work" and not "play." If a venue is truly making a killing and screwing over a band, thats one thing. But we're talking shows where the band's lucky to make enough $$$ to cover gas expenses, the bar's lucky to make enough $$$ to open its doors the next night, and the patrons are lucky to have enough $$ leftover at the end of the night to pick up a rubber and a Mountain Dew on their way home.
 
I keep seeing walls of text, yet all I can hear is...

Invalid Link Removed

No offense, no slight intended, etc. etc.

Anyway, now that thats out of the way.... heres another perspective of why to NOT bring a PA, since I have more of the "not true gigging" experience of playing with your buddy-bands in dive bars for sparse crowds and getting paid in beer.

You'll find many a musician who shows up to their own gigs without equipment. No amp, no cab, no guitar, no bass, no mic, etc. etc. When you're feeling generous or pitiful you loan out your piece, keep an eye on it, grab it the instant their set is over.

Do you really want to go through this whole hassle if you bring a PA??? Suddenly the other 2 or 3 bands playing that night want to use your PA, so they can run their own sound, because "The soundguy in this place always sucks!" (often said by the less-experienced / less-polished bands.) Then they want to mic their whole drumkit. Then bassist or guitarist want to try running stereo because they read about it on a forum. Then suddenly when it comes to tear down, it appears all those guys you let use your PA decided to wrap up your cables and take them back to Jersey in their tour trailer (Jersey shout what up!)

I was in a band that owned our own PA, initially we'd mic the whole band and the whole drumkit, but once we found that other bands would have to depend on it we cut out the guitars and bass, and myself and my guitarists added some speakers to our rigs. We'd allow other bands to use it for vocals and simple drums, just for consistencies sake (generally if they brought their PA but we set up ours, they'd just use ours. Don't think I've ever had a band insist on us tearing down our PA so they could set theirs up.)

Since I don't plan on coming back to this poo-flinging match, I'll tell you what (some) of the bars' mindsets are too. We've played shows for places that were on the fence about bringing in metal music... usually you'd work it out that the bands get a cut of the door, but being the first opening local band, you often get skipped over. If we hear we're only getting $30 from the total cut of the night, we're more likely to give it to the touring band trying to support themselves, or spend it at the bar on shots. We all work full time in non-music fields, we're in the mindset that if we didn't have a musical outlet that we'd go BONKERS at our day jobs, so "stickin it" to bar owners who are "profiting off our hard work" isn't the highest on my priority list. If the bar owners and bartenders are happy, the band is happy, the audience is happy, then really why doesnt anyone else think its their business? This "you people are killing the scene" thing has to stop. Anyone who whines about that, I'd just like to tell them to face reality and stop trying to make a living by playing music. Dayjobs suck, thats why its called "work" and not "play."

Good point but do you realize you've just awoken a zombie thread? There goes humanity. I'm getting on my sail boat as we speak.
 
Aiiieeeee: Zombies!


This is my life, mostly.
Very few of the places I play have FOH.

Mostly, we carry our own.
--we're not punk--and I don't know why this thread would be limited to that...

I think waaay more players live this way than not.

The two bands I work with most use two Bose stick/sub setups.
We mic vocals, keys, horns...maybe the kick drum in a big room.

There are a lot more people who play in situations like this than some people think. Although in a lot of larger cities, clubs often do have house PA's and people there assume it's like that everywhere. Just because there is a house PA doesn't mean it's any good or all the pieces and parts are hooked up correctly or that there's even enough working cables to hook it all up. It also doesn't mean there's a house soundguy who knows how to run it. A lot of the smaller clubs around here do have "house PA's". Often times that means someone who doesn't know anything about it got sold on a Behringer package deal. I can't count the number of times we had to reverse engineer whatever the band the night before did to it to get ourselves sounding passable, not even that good. Tracking down bad cables, figuring out which channels in the board are dead and which ones work, which monitor sends work which monitors, etc. You end up getting the vocals in there, some keys, maybe a little kick. Worry about any more than that and you'll be late starting the show so that's what you end up with. Mix a little more on the fly if you can by watching peoples reactions getting beat in the face with piano or guitar lines. They'll usually tell you if they can't hear the lead vocal. Having a pair of trusted ears in the audience always helps. I just bring enough rig for the gig, whatever that may be. If there happens to be enough PA for me and someone on the other end of it who knows what they're doing, I can always turn down on stage. If not, I make sure I can carry the room if need be.
 
Sweet. At least I'm not alone in this. But, I wouldn't say it's limited to amp worship bands that want to be loud. Some regular rock bands are forced to play without support.

Amp worshipers (which I'm guilty of) take pride in not needing a PA. Hell, I used to play an old Acoustic 370 for the purpose of blowing any house system out of the water. I made this post more for the little guy who'd love to play a smaller rig but can't and come to Talkbass for help only to be told they should use the house PA which, for them doesn't exist.

this happens to often, I'm not experienced enough to call myself a "veteran" just yet, but I've only played 2 gigs in which the PA actually included bass to a degree that made the bass audible.