Behringer.......

[AdamRuckus]

I guess it all depends on your sense of ethics.

Bob, since the question was originally posted by an Australian, let me point out our situation here...

I'd dearly love to have QSC driving my rig and FOH, however the nature of the supply chain for your amps (and most pro equipment here) is such that the retail street price of an PLX1602 is over three times that of a Behringer EP1500.

In the USA, that price differential is only about a factor of two. So we're paying a relative premium of 50% if we want to buy QSC. That kind of overcharging is not so ethical either. Behringer has pointed out to us that we're paying the bulk of our money not for research & development, but for a grossly inefficient supply chain.

Again, I don't wish to be drawn into an argument about ethics, I'd just like you to know how it is here and why consumers are making the choices that they are. Perhaps you're in a position to do something about it?

 

[AdamRuckus]

Well those are street prices, so they already include manufacture, production, marketing, freight, taxes, sales, support, etc for both brands.

The point I'm trying to get across is this:: basically, the old-school way is that a wholesaler in the USA supplies stuff to a wholesaler Australia who distributes to retailers. That's 1 extra finger in the pie that doesn't need to be there, and Behringer is gaining a competitive advantage by bypassing it.

I'm not very happy that my only economically viable choice is Behringer, but by buying other brands I'd simply be perpetuating this inefficient, archaic distribution system. Give me a website where I can order 240v versions of your gear for the US street price + shipping (+ my local taxes, but you don't have to worry about that) and I'll give you a customer.

(Same goes for Shure and JBL if you're listening! )

 

[Stinsok]

This is an honest question: Can QSC produce an amp with the very same build quality and at the same price? You could give it a name similar to other manufacturers lower line stuff. Call it "_______" by QSC and aim for the same market as Behringer. Heck, just reverse engineer Behringer's reverse engineering.

 

[AdamRuckus]

Okay, a real world comparison with real numbers. Let's pretend Behringer doesn't exist for a minute.

According to Link Removed, USD$1 = AUD$0.764751.

At [Invalid or Expired Link Removed], probably the cheapest online retailer of pro equipment in Australia, I can buy a PLX3002 amp for AUD$2,595 which is approximately USD$1984.53.

At Musicians Friend, probably the cheapest online retailer of pro equipment in the USA, I can't buy a PLX3002 amp for USD$999 because Link Removed.

These are both discount retailers who sell at prices, which can't be "talked down". Add delivery and 10% GST (our local sales tax) to that, and it's still completely crazy. This is how it has always been. However now, I can walk into a shop and pay approximately the same amount for a behringer amp that you would pay in the States.

 

[miccheck1516]

Maybe behringers prices are low bcause they dont employ someone to post negative comments about other manufacturers on TB.......
Invalid Link Removed

 

[BruceWane]

Maybe Behringer's prices are low because instead of hiring some engineers to design their power amps, they bought a photocopy machine..................

 

[BruceWane]

The internal circuitry is identical as well. But Behringer did do us a "favor" by skimping on the amp's chassis and power supply, reducing the weight by 12 pounds. Are these negative comments? From Behringer's point of view, I suppose so, but the real question is is it the truth?


How could Behringer make negative comments about other manufacturers when they are copying their products?

 

[BruceWane]

Okay, a real world comparison with real numbers. Let's pretend Behringer doesn't exist for a minute.

According to Link Removed, USD$1 = AUD$0.764751.

At [Invalid or Expired Link Removed], probably the cheapest online retailer of pro equipment in Australia, I can buy a PLX3002 amp for AUD$2,595 which is approximately USD$1984.53.


At Musicians Friend, probably the cheapest online retailer of pro equipment in the USA, I can't buy a PLX3002 amp for USD$999 because Link Removed.

These are both discount retailers who sell at prices, which can't be "talked down". Add delivery and 10% GST (our local sales tax) to that, and it's still completely crazy. This is how it has always been. However now, I can walk into a shop and pay approximately the same amount for a behringer amp that you would pay in the States.

Can you buy QSC's RMX line in Australia? I notice they don't list them at all on the Canon Sound site. The RMX is what Behringer copied, and it is significantly cheaper than the PLX series.

But on top of that, it does look like maybe QSC ought to reconsider their international distribution. From their website, it looks like one company in each country gets exclusive distribution rights, so there is no competition between dealers, only brands. Not a great situation for the consumer.

 

[ole Jason]

I don't think you guys are changing anyones mind about the ethics of buying behringer gear. If someone is even looking at behringer gear in the first place they are obviously on a budget. Like it or not most people are not willing to either not get any gear at all or wait months to get "name brand" gear because of an ethical issue. I know it sucks hearing that, especially if you feel that you are directly affected by behringer's market strategy but that's just how the majority of people are.

If you get the rig let us know how it sounds.

 

[heath_the_great]

ok, i dont really have a budget, im just buying one pice at a time, and so far ive had good experiences with behringer gear (thunderbird practise amp) its never let me down and it souunded alot better than my old ashton (aussie designed) 150w combo amp....i have no real respect for brand names, i like to go with whatever sounds good to me, and having no past experience with power amps i asked this question, and however behringer makes their gear is there choice, if they can deliver a quality product to the consumer at a reaasonable price, woo hoo for me, i have no intention on paying $4400 for a qsc plx3402 1250w @ 4ohm when i can pay $890 for a behringer ep2500 which is 1200w @ 2ohm....not that ill need that much power....i just dont see the point in paying that much more money just because its made in a different country with a different name and case when its basically got the same guts.....

Pro Audio in canberra sell mackie, yamaha, qsc and their own range of power amps...they have the qsc rmx and plx series in their catalog.......

But my point is why pay for so many bells and whistles when i probably wont even use them

But why say because someone wants to buy ir is looking into behringer gear is "cheap" or has a small budget?...just because i might not be able to afford a mesa boogie 400+, but who cares?

 

[heath_the_great]

who cares about brand names? i play a kubicki and plan on getting a wishnevsky, but i dont really see the kubicki as being a brand name instrument as would fender gibson and ibanez would be

 

[heath_the_great]

but what i gotta know, was ashdown treated the same way when they came out, cos look at where they are now

 

[miccheck1516]

The internal circuitry is identical as well.

Not its not.

 

[heath_the_great]

look, who cares about pricing...all i cared about was sound, reliability, i dont give a rats arse about brand names, they just seem to over charge and be exactly the same if not worse than stuff cheaper than it...all i was really asking is that would it be a good choice for reliability

 

[redwood]

And then you figure in the Behringer tech support guy who frequents this forum has to be paid his salary, their design engineers and tech writers have to be paid, and maybe we'll get somewhere in the cost comparison.[/QUOTE]

Ah, Bob, isn't that like calling the kettle black?
And if you feel you MUST reply with some smug comment why don't you keep it on a personal level. Spare the thread!

Anyway heath-the-great, because it is evidently apparent that Behringer equipment is EXACTLY the same as QSC (right Bob?) that the performance will be exactly the same as the QSC RMX 1450.
I have yet to have aproblem with my Behringer equipment.
If I do, I'll let everybody know about it, and just how Behringer's support is.
G'day

 

[The Golden Boy]

You'll find out, believe me, you will find out,.see how this thread is one page? Most behringer threads are over 3 pages, with about 25% of the posts actually relating to the question asked. This is due to the fast that some people believe behringers policies are wrong.

It is one of the most annoying things about TB, and some people have come across as VERY unprofessional in some of the threads.

Page 3.

 

[Mark Reccord]

Not its not.

Have you taken both apart?

I haven't seen one of the Behringer amps in person so I can't comment specifically on it, though I suspect the differences are minimal. I can tell you that I had a Behringer Eurodesk 24ch 4 bus mixer apart and compared it with the Mackie 24-4 and the PCB layouts were almost exactly the same right down to component values. The only differences were that Behringer used cheaper components and the workmanship was worse. Why should I believe any of their other products would be any different?

 

[miccheck1516]

The only differences were that Behringer used cheaper components and the workmanship was worse.

You said it, and if QSC are not prepared to fill the gap in the low cost alternative market then why shouldn't behringer?

 

[miccheck1516]

That's not the point.

Nobody minds Behringer selling inexpensive amps. They just shouldn't nick other people's work in doing so.

They arn't the same amps.

 

[BruceWane]

Not its not.

Well, Miccheck wants to say that they aren't identical, but then.............

because it is evidently apparent that Behringer equipment is EXACTLY the same as QSC (right Bob?) that the performance will be exactly the same as the QSC RMX 1450.

.........redwood wants to say that they are.

Well, the circuit designs are essentially identical. If moving a capacitor over 2mm makes a design original, I suppose you could re-write "Hamlet", change a few "and"s to "or"s, and thus call yourself a great playwriter.

Behringer didn't even bother to rearrange the front and rear panel layouts.

However, as I said earlier, they did manage to take 12 pounds off the weight. The only way to accomplish that in an amplifier of this design (class H) is to skimp on the power supply and the chassis.

The design is the same, the components used are not. So you can't assume equal performance or reliability.

I haven't called anyone here "cheap"; I'm a bargain hunter as much as anyone else. And the issue is not Behringer's manufacturing practices; both the EP and the RMX are built in Asia. The issue is not just "brand names". The issue is whether or not you're OK with buying equipment that is based on a stolen design. That is what's being pointed out here. A few folks here would rather not know about it. They're trying to maintain a clear conscience by insisting they have the right to remain uninformed. But just as any judge will tell you that ignorance of the law is not a valid excuse for breaking the law, neither is willful ignorance of unethical practices a justification for supporting the company that commits them. A blatantly unethical business practice has been pointed out, and so some people are upset because it raises a difficult moral quandry. Directing anger at the people who brought up the issue is like being angry at your doctor because he told you that you have cancer.

I understand being on a short budget, I've been there myself, and it's not like I'm wealthy right now. But I'll never put a price tag on my my ethics. I could buy gear that was stolen outright for a lot less than retail, but I won't because it's wrong.

Of course, the next justification is "if I don't buy this stuff, I won't be able to play". Well, let's be realistic. You won't be able to upgrade your gear right now. You'd have to wait a while and save some more.

But that decision is completely up to you. My or anyone elses opinion of your ethics is irrelevant if you're OK with it. But trying to dress up your decision as something that it's not makes it obvious that you're not all that OK with it. If you really were, any amount of criticism wouldn't bother you. Apparently, the shoe fits, but you don't like wearing it. And that's not my problem, it's yours.