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Berg CN212 vs Big E 8x5

#21
wow! Cool!!

You articulated most of the stuff I've been trying to get across.

I'm 1000% with you on the ported vs. sealed business. The envelope of the note is exactly what you're referring to. How it starts and stops. Before this wacky Big E stuff you had to make a choice---you either get a bigger volume of low end with less distinct start and too much overhang afterward (ported) or very nice acceleration and good decay but a sacrifice in low end girth and extension. (sealed)

Duke and I have talked about this at length. Ports are kindof cheating. The sound coming out of the ports that reinforces the lowest octave is really almost a synthesized bass. There is no way it can accelerate and decay like what's coming off the front of the speaker. There are great designers that have done a great job with this balancing act. But it's still an inherently flawed concept IMO. But a necessary evil if you want a cab that has low end, isn't humoungous and can go loud. To get an 810 that would have the low end of the top 215 speakers like Greenboy's and others----it would have to be twice as big.

One other thing---the clarity with the 85 is not due to attenuated bass---the bass response is actually a bit fuller and just as extended as a 15

Now Ken and I are buddies---but I have to say---respectfully----IT'S NOT A REFLEX CABINET. I respect the fact that the designers know that they have something very unique---and valuable to their future---and are super paranoid about discussing specifics until the full patent goes through. The prototype that Ken heard in no way represents what the cabs sound like now. That cab had two 18 Sound 6" drivers with NO response under 80hz!

It's definitely not a midrange forward design either. I posted graphs of the 85 and a Thunderchild 15 (the flattest speaker in the biz---flatness being neither a good or bad thing). The 85 is VERY close.


The qualities that 3rd is talking about are about the unique cabinet design---not frequency response. It does not sound anything like other small speaker cabs.

To be honest---when the 85 was being discussed in the same company as the Berg 212---to say that I was intimidated is quite an understatement. Other speakers come and go---but the Bergs pretty much stay on the top of the heap.

I'm not saying that my cab is as good or better than the Berg---but even being discussed in the same company is very encouraging to me.
 
#22
KJung said:
Hey, it sounds from your review that you will be keeping the 8x5. However, if you end up keeping the Berg and selling the 8 x 5, could you give me first shot at it. I've been wanting to try one of the 'finished' versions of these, and since I'm in St. Louis gigging so much, you wouldn't have to ship!

If you end up selling the CN212, let me know and I'll spread the word for you in St. Louis and maybe save you some shipping and hassle:)
Click to expand...

Either way I will let you know Ken! Nothing is set in stone yet. I really haven't got as deep as I would like to yet with them. I shouldn't need to move one for at least a few weeks. Actually I may be able to work something out where you could try it on a gig. I've been wanting to make it to one anyway!
 
#23
3rdcurve said:
Either way I will let you know Ken! Nothing is set in stone yet. I really haven't got as deep as I would like to yet with them. I shouldn't need to move one for at least a few weeks. Actually I may be able to work something out where you could try it on a gig. I've been wanting to make it to one anyway!
Click to expand...

I don't play many clubs any more, but am doing the Ritz Carlton lounge in Clayton on Friday, May 31st (9-12:30)! Kind of a fun hang. Big room, and the band is in kind of a 'shell', which is always tonally interesting!
 
#26
3rdcurve said:
... Once you start getting the vortex(or whatever wild terminology they are using for it now) going, the 85 becomes increasingly .....ummm let's say MUSICAL. I noticed it really start to take effect before I hit half volume on my STM900. ...
Click to expand...

Is this a situation where the cab really needs to be driven to a certain volume before 'all the parts come together' as it were?
 
#27
There’s nothing mid forward or "middy" about my 2X6, I’ll tell you that. I’ve mixed a few records, and know true extension when I hear it. This cab goes VERY deep.
 
#29
mothra2 said:
Is this a situation where the cab really needs to be driven to a certain volume before 'all the parts come together' as it were?
Click to expand...

Not in my experience. The proof that this is no way like a reflex---if we block off the driver front and measure what's coming out of the side pots/flares (I don't know what to call them) the response is the same as coming off the cone fronts--it does die after about 4khz. Which is where efficient tweeters take over.

The cool thing is that the vortex comes in at relatively low volume. But the balance is more toward the cone front at low volumes. As volume increases the vortex contributes a larger part. I've noticed that I can hear the voodoo starting to really kick in at a medium to high gig volume. I think that I tend to notice it more at these volumes because my emotional expectations as volume increases is more woof and less clarity. (with other speakers I've used).Which ain't what's happening.

Another thing is that even at very low volumes the speaker doesn't unload (like a reflex) and doesn't have the compliance of air of a sealed box which restricts low end. The vortex isn't the only unusual thing at play here. The speakers load in a different way and feel and sound like they do.

The vortexitude is still present at living room volumes. At living room volumes I've had a lot of guys walking around and commenting on the lack of frequency change. Of course it changes---but not NEARLY as much below 4k. Of course you're not going to hear 10k or above or behind the speaker. But you hear a whole hellava lot more than you're anticipating.

When TB'er Bassfran was over he commented that when standing directly above my speaker "it sounds like you took the top off the cabinet and it's firing right at me"

Of course I did drug him and pay him to say that.
 
#32
Mike Arnopol said:
Not in my experience. The proof that this is no way like a reflex---if we block off the driver front and measure what's coming out of the side pots/flares (I don't know what to call them) the response is the same as coming off the cone fronts--it does die after about 4khz. Which is where efficient tweeters take over.

The cool thing is that the vortex comes in at relatively low volume. But the balance is more toward the cone front at low volumes. As volume increases the vortex contributes a larger part. I've noticed that I can hear the voodoo starting to really kick in at a medium to high gig volume. I think that I tend to notice it more at these volumes because my emotional expectations as volume increases is more woof and less clarity. (with other speakers I've used).Which ain't what's happening.

Another thing is that even at very low volumes the speaker doesn't unload (like a reflex) and doesn't have the compliance of air of a sealed box which restricts low end. The vortex isn't the only unusual thing at play here. The speakers load in a different way and feel and sound like they do.

The vortexitude is still present at living room volumes. At living room volumes I've had a lot of guys walking around and commenting on the lack of frequency change. Of course it changes---but not NEARLY as much below 4k. Of course you're not going to hear 10k or above or behind the speaker. But you hear a whole hellava lot more than you're anticipating.
Click to expand...

+1

Medium volume would be where the mojo starts flowing. It's addicting really. I thought the D and G strings on the Baer ML112 were full - The 85 is in a different league. They seem just as full as the E and A strings to me.

I am going to a musician gathering Saturday evening, mostly blues and contemporary Christian music. I am going to let all the bass players use the 85 so I can walk around check it out. I may take the 212 as well.
 
#35
perfect solution for the handle dilemma

Talked to Steve. He said it was cool to put a hole in the side of the cabinet to use as a handle. The side is not an area subject to pressure as much as air velocity. We don't want to block that air velocity with the cup of a recessed handle. So I'm thinking of different ways to cut and round an integral handle. Which would be cool but a bit laborious.Then I thought---what if I took the handle I've always used (penn elcom 30769) and cut off the cup?
Justmake a jig to perfectly cut the opening and just use the flat flange and handle of the 30769. It would look just like the normal handle until you look and see no cup. Dig?
 

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#36
Mike Arnopol said:
perfect solution for the handle dilemma

Talked to Steve. He said it was cool to put a hole in the side of the cabinet to use as a handle. The side is not an area subject to pressure as much as air velocity. We don't want to block that air velocity with the cup of a recessed handle. So I'm thinking of different ways to cut and round an integral handle. Which would be cool but a bit laborious.Then I thought---what if I took the handle I've always used (penn elcom 30769) and cut off the cup?
Justmake a jig to perfectly cut the opening and just use the flat flange and handle of the 30769. It would look just like the normal handle until you look and see no cup. Dig?
Click to expand...

I would bounce it off the designers to make sure no interference with the MVW mojo and no wind noise.
I think it would look cool!
 
#37
Why no just play it safe with this type...

EDIT:OMG!...it just hit me...you mean an actual HOLE that will be seen.
Maaan, thats just wrong.... :rollno: ... messes with my brain.
 

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#40
Tried 3 different spring-loaded. It's not the handle vibrating against the cup--it's the spring mechanism itself This solution is only for the biggest cabs . (the 85 ,66,and 48)
It's because the ratio of the size of the hole to the cabinet size is small enough that the difference is negligible.

On the sides it's the velocity of air more than pressure. The innerds of the cab are subjected to EXTREME pressure but the sides are subjected to vibration and resonance (hence all the bracing to counteract the resonance). Something blocking airflow would certainly have a deleterious effect.

This is per the designers
 

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