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Bergantino AE212 - Just Released
- Thread starter KJung
- Start date
- Status
- Apr 24, 2004
- 1,359
- 53
- Disclosures
- Designer Fodera Guitars/Michael Pope Design, Inc., Trickfish Amplification
Another big issue you don't want to ignore is doubling....the speaker's tendancy to want to produce frequencies an octave above the one being fed into it. It's a common form of low frequency distortion and it tends to make the upper bass and low midrange sound messy at high volumes. Smaller speakers tend to do this more easily than larger ones. To my ears it presents as a lack of low end EXTENSION. Again, at relatively high volumes. Low volumes...no issue.
I know I've said this on here before, but it's very pertinent here. One time I did a gig with Sanborn at Jazz Alley and Bass Northwest provided an Epifani 410UL. By itself it was unusable...completely unusable. I begged them to bring be a 115 to use with it and it was fine.
The following year I did the same gig, same band, same music, same club, same amp...but they provided a 212UL and it did the job effortlessly. Even though it didn't get as LOUD as the 410UL, it didn't need to. And the projection of that cabinet is stellar in my experience.
I just really like 12's. I checked out a few of Jim's IP cabs when I first built the MPP-1 and fell in love with the 212 IP. I really thought it was great. At the time it was supposed to be discontinued. Did that happen? Of the three I played through, 112, 410, 212, it was the superior by a long shot to my ears.
I know I've said this on here before, but it's very pertinent here. One time I did a gig with Sanborn at Jazz Alley and Bass Northwest provided an Epifani 410UL. By itself it was unusable...completely unusable. I begged them to bring be a 115 to use with it and it was fine.
The following year I did the same gig, same band, same music, same club, same amp...but they provided a 212UL and it did the job effortlessly. Even though it didn't get as LOUD as the 410UL, it didn't need to. And the projection of that cabinet is stellar in my experience.
I just really like 12's. I checked out a few of Jim's IP cabs when I first built the MPP-1 and fell in love with the 212 IP. I really thought it was great. At the time it was supposed to be discontinued. Did that happen? Of the three I played through, 112, 410, 212, it was the superior by a long shot to my ears.
As we've discussed before, your experience with your one night of using the 410UL is very different from my 1000 or so gigs with one over the last 10 years
That being said, it is very much about the mix and match. I HATED my 410UL with my Walter Woods.... really bad match-up of a low mid hole with a low mid hole. With most other heads, the 410UL can be a beautiful thing for many. I agree with you in general though, the UL line is quite voiced, and it is hard to fight that voice if it isn't your thing.I greatly prefer the tighter, punchier AE line at this point by a long shot. I've found over the years that an even frequency response in that all important 60-200hz bass to upper bass to low mid frequency response is what defines a cab that sounds even, punchy, deep and not woofy.
I agree, the entire EpifaniUL line has a bit too much low bass extension at the expense of lower mids, and can sound quite hollow (especially the 212UL, which is my least favorite UL cab with most of the heads I've tried it with... pure personal taste there though... it's a fine cab and I did like it better with my Walter Woods, which I think is the head you were using back in the day).
Much of this is about the matching of a cab's voicing to a heads voicing for me, and also the EQ power to 'fix' any issues with a particular cab, whether that is softening the extreme upper mid bite of an AE410, or punching up that 'lack of punch hole' in many of the UL executions.
IMO, and a lot of IME on that one. I am not one who infers much of a voicing difference across driver size any more. I've heard tight, punchy, upper mid grind 115 cabs, and 'subwoofer' like performance from 8" driver loaded cabs, and everything in-between. The variance in tone across 212 cabs is pretty eye opening, from the tight, grindy tone of the Genz 212XLT, to the very wide, pure 212UL, to the punchy as heck TecAmp s212, etc., etc., etc.
Edit: The entire IP line has been discontinued. The IP212 was discontinued very early on. The AE212 is quite different from the IP212... more punch in the lower mids, more grind coming out of the top of the driver, hence a less 'hi fi' sort of top end, and a much tighter and IMO more usable low end. IMO there also!
One more comment. To this point, I think I agree totally. From what I learned from all the speaker designers and audio engineers on this site, I don't think it has so much to do with driver size, but rather box size relative to the number of drivers. It is easier, I believe, to build an appropriately sized box that someone is willing to buy (i.e., relatively small) with two 12" drivers than it is to appropriately size and voice a box with four 10" drivers (no one would buy a box that big these days).
So, in general, +1... I think some of the 'mid peakiness' of many 410 boxes seems to be 'too much driver for too small of a box', versus what I would guess is a more natural pairing of two 12" drivers with an appropriately sized and tuned box that is still relatively small.
Hi everyone
So, what is the general consensus of the 'best' overall micro/mini amp to pair with the AE212?
Im definitely leaning towards getting one, and I currently have the LM3, (and RH450) but am I better pairing it with a Shuttle 9.0 or Markbass F500?
Thanks
So, what is the general consensus of the 'best' overall micro/mini amp to pair with the AE212?
Im definitely leaning towards getting one, and I currently have the LM3, (and RH450) but am I better pairing it with a Shuttle 9.0 or Markbass F500?
Thanks
I don't think there would ever be a general consensus on something like this. Very few 'bad' pieces of gear on the market... just depends on the tone you want. It's the F500 all the way with that cab for me, but that's based on my tone goals, which you can hear in my clips... punchy, a bit grindy up top, bright but not sizzly. Others will prefer the warmer LMIII, the fatter, more old school RH450, the sizzly and aggressiveness of the MB500, etc.
The cab is voiced evenly enough to pretty much reproduce most of the tonal differences among all these heads IMO, which is a very good thing!
I'll be sure to leave the credit card at home!
Mark offers the 'Take it Away' finance scheme for those who've left the credit card at home. There is NO ESCAPE!
Micro amps that I'd love to audition with any of the AE cabs: EA iAmp Pro, Genz Shuttle 9.0, GK MB500, and Markbass LMIII & F500.
Ordinarily, I really love the tone of the F1/F500, but I'm a bit afraid that with the AE's it might be a bit too grindy for my tonal goals considering the synergy with the AE neo's.
The AE212 is a bit less 'biting' up top than the other AE cabs, so you might dig the F1/F500. Hard to make this cab sound bad though... pretty even and nice and punchy and fat.
'Bighting', Ken?
I'm gonna check out an F500 this Saturday at Jive Sound with TB'er Kwesi; the F500 looks so good on paper, I'm hoping it'll convince me to make it my new amp!
'Bighting', Ken?
I'm gonna check out an F500 this Saturday at Jive Sound with TB'er Kwesi; the F500 looks so good on paper, I'm hoping it'll convince me to make it my new amp!
Hah! Fun with spelling!
Sometimes, my fingers move faster than my head. I usually go back and edit the goofies out of my posts, but missed that one!
Ken - On the basis of your YouTube clips, I thought it would be fun to bop over to Bass San Diego and try out an AE212. I've never been into 12s, but after hearing ubone's HT115s, I wondered if Jim could do that kind of magic on 12s.
I took my Fodera and Eden WTX-500 along so I could see how it would sound as my light weight rig. Wow. It is so clean without any of that boxy sound I've heard in other 12s. It sounds like 10s only creamier, without losing the top end. So it's now sitting in my practice room.
I played a couple Fenders through it ('94 Jazz Deluxe Plus V and Roscoe Beck V) and that jazz bass growl really comes to the front. No buyer's remorse here. Great cab.
Thanks for the clips. I would like to mention, though, that I can't hear you talking on your videos unless I crank up the volume loud enough to wake my daughter.
Cool! It is a great cab.
Yeah, I like to record the clips at 'gig volume'... pretty cranked up so you can really hear what the cab sounds like. That results in the 'autolimiter' on my little Q3 really taking the volume down, and hence making my little 'blah blah blah' comments a bit hard to hear. I'm hoping the accuracy of the cab/bass/head tone is a good compromise to the low verbiage.
Basically, I think the talk of this cab being a lighter punchier HT112ER stack is making it very hard to resist.
Ken - please hurry and get us a big-gig report with this puppy!
I've had it out twice now, and it has performed great (not nearly as bloomy as my 410UL, but smoother and 'bigger sounding' than my beloved AE410. However, they were low volume gigs. I will have it pounding on the 20th in a room I've gigged with the AE410, so that will be the 'final' piece to the puzzle... will it handle loud digging in and slap transients as well as the AE410 (which is very good). Everything so far says that it will, and should give me more true low end, a smoother upper mid response, and hopefully 80% of the absolute volume of the AE410, which would be perfect!
Look for more info on the 21st when I return to town!
ohhh im getting close to taking the plunge.
Will be first gig setup. I bought a used LM II off ebay that sounded great through a friends swr golight. Been thinking about dropping a pretty penny on this for it's tone, versatility, and portability.
I imagine its a touch better than my trusty old ampeg BA-115.
Will be first gig setup. I bought a used LM II off ebay that sounded great through a friends swr golight. Been thinking about dropping a pretty penny on this for it's tone, versatility, and portability.
I imagine its a touch better than my trusty old ampeg BA-115.
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