Bergantino B/Amp at NAMM

[Stumbo]

Interesting that you mention a different frequency for the 4 vs 5 string. I thought the HPF (in bass applications) was to protect the speakers and preserve amp headroom - both of which relate to the amp/speakers (not the bass guitar).

Can you explain further?

Thanks
Neil

As I've read more posts by TB cab builders, there are more facets to an HPF than speaker protection/amp headroom.

Also, I recently received an adjustable HPF that I've been using to experiment with on a 15w tube 1x15 combo, 225w guitar speaker. An HPF can also remove cab vibrations as well!

Most bass speakers have little content below about 50hz or so.

So, an HPF can do more for us if we combine and apply knowledge about speakers (loudness by frequency), bass strings(fundamental vs. Harmonics) and our brain(pyschoacoustics).

If you would, please read this post, (that gives more details to answer your question) written by Mike Arnopol, builder MAS cabinets (which I cross-posted in the HPF mega thread):

TL;DR Get an HPF. Removes mud from your rig.

Notes:
Fundamental = 1st harmonic
2nd harmonic of E string = 82hz. Set your HPF to 75hz.
2nd harmonic of B string = 62hz. Set your HPF to 55hz.
10db up = twice as loud
10db down = twice as soft

@Mike Arnopol (MAS) said about HPFs and reproducing lows:

One of the reasons that manufacturers don't give charts for the low end is that it's really hard to measure the low end.

In talking with the chief engineer at Eminence---even in their graphs--he said to ignore the info below 300hz---their anechoic (sp?) room is too small to get accurate measurements below that.

Bass speaker manufacturers provide "modelled" response.

Also--most manufacturers "stretch" the truth---or ignore it entirely. Two well known manufacturers in their sheets claim---one says 30hz, another says 37 hz. They don't give any indication of how many DB down.

A few years back, one of them in the info for the specific 12" cab stated response to 37hz. In another technical page he showed the actual low end extension. The speaker that went to 37hz was -3db in the 50's. -10db at 44 hz. The response was actually about 15db down at 37hz. He then removed his technical page.

Another (30hz guy) has a 12 in a very small box. The driver has a resonant frequency of 52hz! It does not go much lower than this. In knowing that driver and modelling boxes in top programs---couldn't get a -3db point below 60hz. At 30 hz it was likely down 20db.

My buddy @DukeLeJeune (Audiokinesis) states the response of his at -3db at 57hz. His cabs has at least as good low response than the others.But the guys are going to go for the one that "claims" 30hz. With the exception of Acme and at one other that I'm aware of, no 12" cabs have much happening below 45hz.

The good news is that for a solid B string---you really only need flat to 62hz--the second harmonic of the B string. That's what you hear when yo hear a huge B string.
But---the fundamental is pretty cool. It doesn't sound at all like you'd think. It just gives a really cool presence and solidity to the note. When people say that it just muddies thing up they're right. Kindof.

In a ported cab, the cabinet tuning determines the low extent of the true extension. The 12" cabs I mentioned---for example--are likely tuned in the high 40 hz range.

With a ported cab, any info below the tuning--the cab is "unloaded"--which means that it no longer has a compliance of air controlling controlling the driver.

So---any info it gets below the tuning frequency---the driver flops around aimlessly.Which causes the 2nd harmonic to sound bloated and boomy.

You will get a better, more controlled B string with such cabs by using a steep high pass filter.

Then when you play the 31 hz B, you set the HPF at say 55hz. Now your speaker isn't trying to reproduce the fundamentals, so---since our main perception of the B is acually 62hz--the B string becomes tighter and much less boomy.

Even with a cab like the Acme, his low end specs say -3db at 42hz. That's lower than almost any of the other bass cabs.

But---even if a cab went down to 31hz---there is a lot of subsonic junk that is eating all of your power and causing the cone to flop around, So---it's really important to have a good HPF, ALL bass amps should have one.

 

[Stumbo]

Hey Rod, if you're after a sealed cab vibe try this. Set your HPF at about 40 hz. Set your bass EQ center on your B|Amp to 100 hz with a wide Q (default). Boost a little to taste in that area.

810's, as im sure you know, don't have much true, deep low but they produce prodigious amounts in the 100 hz punch zone.

Based on info in the HPF mega thread, I suggest also trying your HPF at 75hz, just under the E string 2nd harmonic.

And also at 100hz and then downward from there till you get the tone you want.

 

[JoePP]

For those of you using the eq at 0 0 0 0 on your B|Amp: are you also using the distortion, and if so where do you set the blend knob? I've found that with distortion on, if I run the blend up around 2:00 (which is where I get the amount of grit and growl I like) some of the bottom end drops out. I notice it through my cabs (2 x HDN210s) and IEMs. It's particularly obvious if I flip the blend knob back and forth between 2:00 and fully CCW (dry). Granted, losing some low end in the distorted signal is not unlike pretty much every distortion pedal I've used - most of the good ones have a way to add the low frequencies back in. On the B|Amp I usually compensate by boosting 3 or 4 db at 90hz with a wide Q to bring the bottom back. It just makes it a little cumbersome switching in and out of distortion, b/c I have to adjust the eq. Anyone having similar experiences? Just curious if folks using 0 0 0 0 for their eq settings are (a) not using distortion, (b) not running the blend knob past 11:00 or 12:00 to maintain some of the lows in the dry signal, or (c) just living loss of low end in their distorted sound.

 

[Dragonlord]

For those of you using the eq at 0 0 0 0 on your B|Amp: are you also using the distortion, and if so where do you set the blend knob? I've found that with distortion on, if I run the blend up around 2:00 (which is where I get the amount of grit and growl I like) some of the bottom end drops out. I notice it through my cabs (2 x HDN210s) and IEMs. It's particularly obvious if I flip the blend knob back and forth between 2:00 and fully CCW (dry). Granted, losing some low end in the distorted signal is not unlike pretty much every distortion pedal I've used - most of the good ones have a way to add the low frequencies back in. On the B|Amp I usually compensate by boosting 3 or 4 db at 90hz with a wide Q to bring the bottom back. It just makes it a little cumbersome switching in and out of distortion, b/c I have to adjust the eq. Anyone having similar experiences? Just curious if folks using 0 0 0 0 for their eq settings are (a) not using distortion, (b) not running the blend knob past 11:00 or 12:00 to maintain some of the lows in the dry signal, or (c) just living loss of low end in their distorted sound.

Just a thought, do you have the distortion's level at max (15)? Because if not, then this should allow you to keep more of the clean signal in the blend (the blend knob would be at less than 2:00 when you get the same amount of grit, retaining more clean signal -and bass).

 

[Jim Bergantino]

For those of you using the eq at 0 0 0 0 on your B|Amp: are you also using the distortion, and if so where do you set the blend knob? I've found that with distortion on, if I run the blend up around 2:00 (which is where I get the amount of grit and growl I like) some of the bottom end drops out. I notice it through my cabs (2 x HDN210s) and IEMs. It's particularly obvious if I flip the blend knob back and forth between 2:00 and fully CCW (dry). Granted, losing some low end in the distorted signal is not unlike pretty much every distortion pedal I've used - most of the good ones have a way to add the low frequencies back in. On the B|Amp I usually compensate by boosting 3 or 4 db at 90hz with a wide Q to bring the bottom back. It just makes it a little cumbersome switching in and out of distortion, b/c I have to adjust the eq. Anyone having similar experiences? Just curious if folks using 0 0 0 0 for their eq settings are (a) not using distortion, (b) not running the blend knob past 11:00 or 12:00 to maintain some of the lows in the dry signal, or (c) just living loss of low end in their distorted sound.

HI Joe,

You can use the Mem locations to save your settings and quickly recall them at the push of a button or footswitch. If you save your clean setting with the effects off, the position of the blend knob won't come into play. So I would leave the blend knob where you like it for your distortion channel and then save your distortion scene including the Eq settings. Then set up your clean channel with desired eq making sure you shut the effects off in the effects menu and save that, or you can just make this your home screen. Then switching between the two will give you your distortion settings including type, drive, and volume settings along with it's dedicated eq (the position of the blend will come into play in this scene), and then your clean can have let's say 0 0 0 0 as the eq with distortion off and the blend knob is no longer in the equation. Does this make sense or am I not understanding your situation?

And speaking of distortion, there will be a new upgrade coming out later this week with a newer distortion circuit.

 

[JoePP]

HI Joe,

You can use the Mem locations to save your settings and quickly recall them at the push of a button or footswitch. If you save your clean setting with the effects off, the position of the blend knob won't come into play. So I would leave the blend knob where you like it for your distortion channel and then save your distortion scene including the Eq settings. Then set up your clean channel with desired eq making sure you shut the effects off in the effects menu and save that, or you can just make this your home screen. Then switching between the two will give you your distortion settings including type, drive, and volume settings along with it's dedicated eq (the position of the blend will come into play in this scene), and then your clean can have let's say 0 0 0 0 as the eq with distortion off and the blend knob is no longer in the equation. Does this make sense or am I not understanding your situation?

And speaking of distortion, there will be a new upgrade coming out later this week with a newer distortion circuit.

Thanks Jim! Always good to hear from you, and yes that makes sense. That's basically what I do is set a clean channel, and then a separate distortion channel with the eq compensated. I was just curious if others who are using the eq at 0 0 0 0 are also using distortion with that setting, or if they are setting up a separate distortion channel where they adjust the eq.
Looking forward to checking out the new distortion circuit!
Thanks again! Take care!

 

[Jim Bergantino]

Thanks Jim! Always good to hear from you, and yes that makes sense. That's basically what I do is set a clean channel, and then a separate distortion channel with the eq compensated. I was just curious if others who are using the eq at 0 0 0 0 are also using distortion with that setting, or if they are setting up a separate distortion channel where they adjust the eq.
Looking forward to checking out the new distortion circuit!
Thanks again! Take care!

Thanks Joe. Sounds like I may have misunderstood your post. As I believe you and others eluded to, you're always going to loose low end when creating distortion. It's the clipping of the signal that creates the distortion and typically the first thing to clip are the lower frequencies. Some pedals eq this back in post circuit. Given the power of the B|AMP's features and ability to save various tone settings, I thought it best to let players determine how they like their distortion eq'd rather than me trying to guess. This way you can "salt to taste" how you like your flavor of distortion without having to undo my "spices". It's the same thing as trying to eq a heavily voiced amp to taste, it's next to impossible!

Look forward to your thoughts on the new distortion when it comes out!
Jim

 

[JoePP]

Thanks Jim. Again, makes perfect sense to do it that way. One last question if you don't mind - if you were to estimate how to get the low end in the distortion circuit back as close as possible to the dry signal, what would you recommend? So for example, with Dist 1 on, drive at 1 vol at 9, what would be the eq adjustment needed to make the low end sound exactly the same with the blend knob fully CW (100% wet) versus the blend fully CCW (100% dry)? Is my +3 to 4db at 90hz with a wide Q in the ballpark? I'd really like to get it to where I can switch in and out of distortion without any perceivable change in the bottom. I think I'm getting close with that adjustment mentioned above, but not exactly spot on. Thoughts?

 

[Jim Bergantino]

Thanks Jim. Again, makes perfect sense to do it that way. One last question if you don't mind - if you were to estimate how to get the low end in the distortion circuit back as close as possible to the dry signal, what would you recommend? So for example, with Dist 1 on, drive at 1 vol at 9, what would be the eq adjustment needed to make the low end sound exactly the same with the blend knob fully CW (100% wet) versus the blend fully CCW (100% dry)? Is my +3 to 4db at 90hz with a wide Q in the ballpark? I'd really like to get it to where I can switch in and out of distortion without any perceivable change in the bottom. I think I'm getting close with that adjustment mentioned above, but not exactly spot on. Thoughts?

Joe,
It's not as easy as a simple linear function. How you play and attack the notes would cause these differences to change dynamically. The harder you drive the circuit at the same setting the more you clip and equally important, the more harmonic content you generate up in frequency. All of this will play a role in the perceived octave to octave tonal balance of your system. But that's just how distortion works. The best thing to do is trust your ears and eq it how you like it. Others can chime in and share their experiences and eq preferences. I'm sure it would be cool to get various opinions and preferred settings from other B|AMP owners to try and experiment with.

 

[husky123]

Thanks Jim. Again, makes perfect sense to do it that way. One last question if you don't mind - if you were to estimate how to get the low end in the distortion circuit back as close as possible to the dry signal, what would you recommend? So for example, with Dist 1 on, drive at 1 vol at 9, what would be the eq adjustment needed to make the low end sound exactly the same with the blend knob fully CW (100% wet) versus the blend fully CCW (100% dry)? Is my +3 to 4db at 90hz with a wide Q in the ballpark? I'd really like to get it to where I can switch in and out of distortion without any perceivable change in the bottom. I think I'm getting close with that adjustment mentioned above, but not exactly spot on. Thoughts?

Hey Joe, I'm not a Quad Zero club member but Jim has you on the right track (of course). Before reading his post, I was going to suggest centering the Bass EQ at 100 hz, wide Q and dialing up 2-4 DBs. That's the punch zone and can help give you back some of that sine wave that's chopped up by the clipping. Just the nature of the beast when you clip the signal but with the B Amp, as I'm sure you know, there's ways to easily get it back to full blown slam.

 

[RocketMusic]

Man - this discussion is very timely for me. I've been struggling to play nicely with my keyboard player. We play together in 3 different bands, and the low end is often a big pile of mush as we both project fairly heavily in that region. I've been trying to get him to apply some EQ to free up some space for me, but I've also been working on my own sound to return the favor. He's not budging, but after just playing around with taking the B|Amp's HPF up to 74Hz... I'm optimistic that I can do my part to add some low end clarity to the sounds of our various bands.

Taking it up to 74 Hz seems so counter-intuitive, but the rationale makes sense to my EE brain. And the results are very encouraging. I can't wait for tomorrow night's rehearsal!

 

[David A. Davis]

Man - this discussion is very timely for me. I've been struggling to play nicely with my keyboard player. We play together in 3 different bands, and the low end is often a big pile of mush as we both project fairly heavily in that region. I've been trying to get him to apply some EQ to free up some space for me, but I've also been working on my own sound to return the favor. He's not budging, but after just playing around with taking the B|Amp's HPF up to 74Hz... I'm optimistic that I can do my part to add some low end clarity to the sounds of our various bands.

Taking it up to 74 Hz seems so counter-intuitive, but the rationale makes sense to my EE brain. And the results are very encouraging. I can't wait for tomorrow night's rehearsal!

Greg, if that doesn't work you only have two choices left. 1- tie his left hand behind back or 2- fire him.

 

[Jim Bergantino]

Man - this discussion is very timely for me. I've been struggling to play nicely with my keyboard player. We play together in 3 different bands, and the low end is often a big pile of mush as we both project fairly heavily in that region. I've been trying to get him to apply some EQ to free up some space for me, but I've also been working on my own sound to return the favor. He's not budging, but after just playing around with taking the B|Amp's HPF up to 74Hz... I'm optimistic that I can do my part to add some low end clarity to the sounds of our various bands.

Taking it up to 74 Hz seems so counter-intuitive, but the rationale makes sense to my EE brain. And the results are very encouraging. I can't wait for tomorrow night's rehearsal!

Actually, regarding the VHPF, one would be surprise how high up you can take it before missing any low end, or at least desirable low end. And it's not like everything below the cutoff frequency is eliminated, just attenuated. What it does is tighten up the low end and gives the bass more definition, especially with regards to notes below Low E where the fundamentals, IMO, take away more from the note than they add. And to take it one step further, even though it's called a bass guitar, the beauty of the instrument, in fact of all music, is in the midrange, IMO.

 

[Dragonlord]

Talking about new distortions, is there anyone else who'd like more headroom/sensitivity on the overdrive? I have it on max drive (15) but with my Dingwall in series pickups mode, as soon as I get a nice, rich tube-ish overdrive, the input gain starts clipping so I have to back down a bit... it would be awesome if the drive could go to the equivalent of 20 or so. The distortions on the other hand I find that they can go as high as I want them - although I currently get my distortion from an Eventide H9, I prefer having all the effects in one pedal. I have some overdrive in my signal as an always on effect, at around 50% blend, but I'd prefer more of the clean signal but with a dirtier overdriven sound.

 

[Jim Bergantino]

Talking about new distortions, is there anyone else who'd like more headroom/sensitivity on the overdrive? I have it on max drive (15) but with my Dingwall in series pickups mode, as soon as I get a nice, rich tube-ish overdrive, the input gain starts clipping so I have to back down a bit... it would be awesome if the drive could go to the equivalent of 20 or so. The distortions on the other hand I find that they can go as high as I want them - although I currently get my distortion from an Eventide H9, I prefer having all the effects in one pedal. I have some overdrive in my signal as an always on effect, at around 50% blend, but I'd prefer more of the clean signal but with a dirtier overdriven sound.

Try the blend all the way up if you're using the O/D. The O/D was more meant not to have clean mixed in. Let me know how that works for you.

 

[Dragonlord]

Try the blend all the way up if you're using the O/D. The O/D was more meant not to have clean mixed in. Let me know how that works for you.

I've tried that too, I still prefer having the clean signal mixed in... I don't want exactly a "dirty" sound, I want a clean sound with dirt added alongside/on top of it, if that makes sense... I love the B|Amp's clean sound and I want as much of it as possible in the mix, it's just too clean for my current band on its own so it needs a little grit. I just prefer having a little heavily overdriven sound added to my clean signal than having a dirtier overall sound, it sounds better to me because this way I keep all the great definition and response of the clean signal.

 

[Jim Bergantino]

I've tried that too, I still prefer having the clean signal mixed in... I don't want exactly a "dirty" sound, I want a clean sound with dirt added alongside/on top of it, if that makes sense... I love the B|Amp's clean sound and I want as much of it as possible in the mix, it's just too clean for my current band on its own so it needs a little grit. I just prefer having a little heavily overdriven sound added to my clean signal than having a dirtier overall sound, it sounds better to me because this way I keep all the great definition and response of the clean signal.

Email me directly and I'll send you a slightly modified version and see if that helps.

 

[Dragonlord]

And this, folks, is the definition of over the top customer service. I already have a firmware with heavier overdrive and I like what I'm hearing so far - will report back from our next rehearsal on Sunday.

 

[husky123]

I've tried that too, I still prefer having the clean signal mixed in... I don't want exactly a "dirty" sound, I want a clean sound with dirt added alongside/on top of it, if that makes sense... I love the B|Amp's clean sound and I want as much of it as possible in the mix, it's just too clean for my current band on its own so it needs a little grit. I just prefer having a little heavily overdriven sound added to my clean signal than having a dirtier overall sound, it sounds better to me because this way I keep all the great definition and response of the clean signal.

Hey there, you go for a very similar dirt tone as me. Have you tried running the gain very high with a correspondingly high volume (ex. 15/10 or so) and then blending that in with the aux knob (9 o'clock or so)?

 

[Dragonlord]

Hey there, you go for a very similar dirt tone as me. Have you tried running the gain very high with a correspondingly high volume (ex. 15/10 or so) and then blending that in with the aux knob (9 o'clock or so)?

Yeah but still, I felt like a needed a heavier overdrive. Thankfully, now I have all the overdrive I may need with my new firmware, just need to test it in volume and with the rest of the band.