Bergantino IP112 - Holy @*#&!

[FenderP]

I agree, nothing in the bass world with claims of being flat has been even close. Try an IP.

Oh, and nothing outboard or otherwise can do what the DSP does internally. Give Jim a call. He'd be happy to explain it for you. Again, my number one suggestion is to try the IP's. They're not for everyone but I can assure you that you've not heard your bass before like you will through the IP's.

I'l also second this as a longtime Ampeg and traditional amp user overall. I was a skeptic. Then I heard the IP112. Even with the ART MP which I paid $45 for, it still sings.

I am getting what I want out of the IP what I can't get out of a rig that either won't break my back or costs 1/2 to 1/3 of this, but just doesn't do it sonically for me. Of course, it helps having an idea of what your "sound" is, but I do not regret the IP112 purchase.

 

[curt basner]

Okay, stupid question...

What, if any, options exist, given the built-in power amp on these IP units, for connecting them to extra external non-powered cabinets. Just as an example, what if I got an IP310, and for whatever reason, wanted to drive an NV610 cabinet in addition (or, for that matter, some other manufacturer's cabinet, say, one with 15" drivers). Is that possible?

For Tombowlus, I sent you an e mail asking some specific questions on the Bergantino line driver.

P.S. For all of you, just wanted to say that since this is such a great place to gather information, I decided to support the site today by becoming a supporting member. I hope to see this site running for a long, long time!!

 

[emjazz]

Okay, stupid question...

What, if any, options exist, given the built-in power amp on these IP units, for connecting them to extra external non-powered cabinets. Just as an example, what if I got an IP310, and for whatever reason, wanted to drive an NV610 cabinet in addition (or, for that matter, some other manufacturer's cabinet, say, one with 15" drivers). Is that possible?

For Tombowlus, I sent you an e mail asking some specific questions on the Bergantino line driver.

P.S. For all of you, just wanted to say that since this is such a great place to gather information, I decided to support the site today by becoming a supporting member. I hope to see this site running for a long, long time!!

Curt, with the IP212 and the IP310, since they're only rated to go down to 4ohms, you can't use an external cabinet.....and trust me when I say that unless you're playing Madison Square Garden, you won't need another cabinet.

The IP112 will connect out to another 8ohm box, preferably the EX112 as that's it's best mate for sure.

Now, a powered NV610....that would be out of control, especially mated with an NV215.

 

[curt basner]

Thanks, EM!

I believe you, in terms of no need for additional cabinets, based on what I've read in this thread. You've just reinforced that thought. I had just been curious.

As I noted in my prior post, I've got some questions for Tom Bowlus on the as yet unreleased Line Driver. But I gather than you can actually shape the tone of these guys with different preamps? You're pretty happy with the SIB Fatdrive? What happens if you plug in a passive bass without a preamp?

 

[curt basner]

I've come to a decision.... After looking on this great place for a month or so now, and after doing some significant agonizing...I'm going to order an IP310. There are a million choices out there, and I'm certain there are at least half a million GOOD choices, but at some point, ya just gotta make a call...and I'm thinking this is it. Now, the only thing to consider is the preamp. I'll wait to see the story on the Bergantino Line Driver...

Nice to have this decision made!

 

[FenderP]

But I gather than you can actually shape the tone of these guys with different preamps? You're pretty happy with the SIB Fatdrive? What happens if you plug in a passive bass without a preamp?

....

Now, the only thing to consider is the preamp. I'll wait to see the story on the Bergantino Line Driver...

Nice to have this decision made!

Yes - the sound of the IP will be shaped with your preamp solution. It can be as transparent or affected as you want. You may want to start with something cheap at first like I did and then experiment with other things. That way you can get up and running quickly.

I played the 310 before I got the 112 and it sounded good, but the 112 was more "me".

As long as your preamp has a gain control, you'll be fine. I doubt you'll regret your purchase.

 

[tombowlus]

I agree, nothing in the bass world with claims of being flat has been even close. Try an IP.

+1 This is really something different, here.

Tom.

 

[tombowlus]

Okay, stupid question...

What, if any, options exist, given the built-in power amp on these IP units, for connecting them to extra external non-powered cabinets. Just as an example, what if I got an IP310, and for whatever reason, wanted to drive an NV610 cabinet in addition (or, for that matter, some other manufacturer's cabinet, say, one with 15" drivers). Is that possible?

The IP310/IP212 do not have a speaker out jack, as they are 4 ohm cabs. The IP112 is an 8 ohm cab, and therefore has a speakon out jack.

For Tombowlus, I sent you an e mail asking some specific questions on the Bergantino line driver.

Didn't get it, for whatever reason. Please try me again.

P.S. For all of you, just wanted to say that since this is such a great place to gather information, I decided to support the site today by becoming a supporting member. I hope to see this site running for a long, long time!!

Way to go!

 

[tombowlus]

What happens if you plug in a passive bass without a preamp?

They actually sound killer with passive basses plugged straight in. You just won't get all the volume that you would otherwise get (but then again, you get more useable volume than many people would need).

Tom.

 

[curt basner]

Hey Tom,

There really wasn't any good reason for the e mail versus posting my question about the Bergantino Line Driver here, other than possibly asking you to repeat stuff that you have already put on the site, but I'll ask here anyway...

I was told that the Line Driver may be out in 2-3 weeks, and may run between $300-$500. What I was curious about was the configuration and features of the driver. Will it be in a stomp box or rack configuration? Is the preamp solid state or tube? What types of controls are going to be on the unit? How variable will the tones coming out of it be? How will this unit compare to some of the other preamps that are out there on the market that others have stated they use with the IP cabinets today, such as a Demeter or Aquilar?

That's essentially what I was told and what I'm curious about. Thanks for any thoughts on this.

 

[BartmanPDX]

I've come to a decision.... After looking on this great place for a month or so now, and after doing some significant agonizing...I'm going to order an IP310. There are a million choices out there, and I'm certain there are at least half a million GOOD choices, but at some point, ya just gotta make a call...and I'm thinking this is it. Now, the only thing to consider is the preamp. I'll wait to see the story on the Bergantino Line Driver...

Nice to have this decision made!

It's really risky to buy something new without hearing it in person. Some people are used to hearing their sound colored by their amp/cab in a certain way -- for instance, some are Ampeg SVT devotees, and don't like the sound of their bass through any other rig.

That being said, I think you'll be FLOORED by the performance of the IP 310. DSP and digital amps are the wave of the future. I first encountered them in subwoofers in the world of home theater, and couldn't wait until the technology worked its way over to bass amps/cabinets (which is an ideal use for the technology). It just makes so much sense. What the IP series does is give you the sound of your bass, as uncolored as possible, by reproducing every frequency at almost exactly the same level as it enters the unit. Other cabs may claim to be "flat," but this is a quantum leap in technology, using digital technology to basically function as an almost limitless EQ to exactly counteract the cabinet's natural tendencies to emphasize or diminish various frequencies. I think we need someone with more time and graphing ability than I do to explain how DSP works, but the results pretty much speak for themselves when you plug into an IP cab.

Down the road, the next step in innovation may well involve an automatically adjustable DSP that uses a microphone to account for the acoustic properties of the room you're in. This is already done in some home theater systems. As with home theater, it will only really shine in a certain area of the room, but it will blow you away.

 

[tombowlus]

Hey Tom,

There really wasn't any good reason for the e mail versus posting my question about the Bergantino Line Driver here, other than possibly asking you to repeat stuff that you have already put on the site, but I'll ask here anyway...

I was told that the Line Driver may be out in 2-3 weeks, and may run between $300-$500. What I was curious about was the configuration and features of the driver. Will it be in a stomp box or rack configuration? Is the preamp solid state or tube? What types of controls are going to be on the unit? How variable will the tones coming out of it be? How will this unit compare to some of the other preamps that are out there on the market that others have stated they use with the IP cabinets today, such as a Demeter or Aquilar?

That's essentially what I was told and what I'm curious about. Thanks for any thoughts on this.

The Line Driver/DI is a solid state preamp (an DI) with a very clean signal path, and no to minimal coloration. The unit will be a "desk top" style (neither a stomp box nor a rack mount), somewhat like the U5 in appearance. Of course, there will likely be SOME way to rackmount it. There are no tone controls. In fact, the first prototype that Jim sent me had on one knob, labelled "More." It's just the sound of your bass, only with more gain. Of course many products claim to do this, and the proof is in the pudding, so I'll let y'all decide this one for yourselves, but personally, I find the line driver to be extremely uncolored and tremendously full range. It makes other preamps which I thought were full range sound somewhat truncated on both the lows and the highs. It just flat out sounds good (in a very clean, precise way), IME/IMHO.

After my first gigging attempts with the line driver and IP322, though, I spent some time talking with Jim, and he ended up adding a variable high pass filter to the design. With cabs that go as deep and strong as the IP line, I find this to be very useful, especially in rooms with poorly designed stages, or loose fixtures.

So, you'll have a killer, clean, preamp, a phantom power safe, great sounding DI, a volume knob, and a variable high pass filter. At my suggestion, the input impedance has been upped a bit to be more friendly to our upright playing and/or doubling brethren (I think somewhere just above 2 Meg). But nothing, really, beyond this. No tone controls, per se. This will appeal to some, and not to others. But, I gotta tell you, for excellent clean tone, even outside of the context of the IP cabs, the Bergantino line driver is my reference preamp.

Tom.

 

[chadds]

Smash for your purposes the IP is a combo. My powered JBL EONs are not combos nor are Meyer cabs or other PA cabs with amps within. It makes little sense to put Poweramps near the board and run speaker cable for long distances with loss. So PA folks started stacking their amps near the speakers. Notice the panel of your snake. But is an IP an Eden bass combo? Well they did call cars horseless carriages but the name doesn't seem to have stuck. C man tickle.

 

[BartmanPDX]

I'd like to one day. Re: flat, I'm just being up-front that I bring my grains of salt with me on that topic. And as I said, that's ultimately not compelling to me as much as the range of experienced players who seem so impressed including some who aren't normally easily impressed. Where I live, trying it ain't that easy but asking question here is.




Why is that - wouldn't an outboard DSP unit programmed similarly make for the same end result? I accept these IP's are what they are and that's neat, I just don't see how they're doing something their component parts cannot do if housed separately. That's just for discussion/understanding of what's going on here - I see value in the combination of these things so I'm not going down the "you can just put this and that together in a rack yourself..." road 'cause there's no chance I'd ever do that.




I'm not sure the "true sound of my bass" is something I want to hear while I'm playing it , but it's still a compelling bit of gear. Thanks for your replies.

The reason DSP works so well is that it is tailor-made to the cabinet in which the power amp is mounted. Every cabinet has peaks and valleys in the frequency response -- its just the nature of converting electrical energy to sound waves -- some frequencies are emphasized, while others are reduced. What the IP cabs do is use DSP processing to accurately counteract the inherent peaks and valleys in the frequency response.

In some ways, this is similar to what an EQ section does. However, comparing the precision of the DSP versus a bank of EQ knobs or sliders is a little like comparing the precision of a master wood carver versus one of those chainsaw wood carvers. (not the best analogy, but you get the point). The DSP is just a massively accurate EQ section for flattening the frequency response to a degree not really obtainable through a typical EQ section -- even an EQ section in the hands of someone with a really good ear -- because a typical EQ section is basically a much cruder tool.

An outboard DSP-enabled power amp unit would need to be specifically programmed with a DSP setting for whatever particular model of cabinet it was paired with in order to function correctly by counteracting the specific peaks and valleys for that model. In theory, one could do extensive acoustic testing on a wide range of cabinet models, and come up with a downloadable DSP setting for each model. It also might be possible to have a unit that used a microphone to "hear" the cabinet's frequency response, and then apply DSP to the signal to create a flat setting, but this would be HIGHLY dependent on where the microphone was placed, as the cabinet sound would be interacting with the room acoustics as well. (In the lab, they test the cabinets in a special anechoic chamber, I believe).

Another nice thing is that the DSP takes the guesswork out of trying to fiddle with the EQ knobs on the head to try to get rid of unwanted peaks or valleys that make a cabinet sound bad (boomy, thin, scooped, etc.) -- just plug in, and you get terrific tone (assuming your bass has good tone -- I haven't tried my Bergantino with a lousy sounding bass).

If you like the sound you get from your cab/amp, you may not need or want the Bergantino IP cabs. Personally, I love the way my basses sound through my IP 310 -- I've never heard them sound better. Someone more skilled than me at dialing in EQ adjustments might not be as impressed as I am -- but I think the Bergantino cabs are still definitely worth a listen, and I think we'll see a lot more of DSP technology in the coming years.

I'm not sure if any of the above makes any sense, but I believe it's pretty accurate, given my (admittedly limited) understanding of how DSP works based on my knowledge of how it works in home theater (my other hobby).

 

[chadds]

Months ago someone stated that some cab makers do with cab design what Jim has done with computer measurement and digital processing. The science makes it. It's up to us whether it's our sound. It's only better if it's better for you. Jim's application works. But notice a true fan, Tom is also a fan of the new tube Sadowsky and he loves EA and the sound of his old Mesa 4x10. What does that tell you? Different applications. What do you want hear today? All tube on a non-ported cab? State of the art SS on a ported cab? Jims new innovations? We live in exciting times with so much choice.

 

[FenderP]

I'm not sure the "true sound of my bass" is something I want to hear while I'm playing it , but it's still a compelling bit of gear. Thanks for your replies.

This is why when I buy basses, I always test them acoustically before plugging them in. Naked the sound good, they should sound good plugged in. I like the sound of my basses naked. An amp or preamp should never overcompensate IMHO

 

[KJung]

The Line Driver/DI is a solid state preamp (an DI) with a very clean signal path, and no to minimal coloration. The unit will be a "desk top" style (neither a stomp box nor a rack mount), somewhat like the U5 in appearance. Of course, there will likely be SOME way to rackmount it. There are no tone controls. In fact, the first prototype that Jim sent me had on one knob, labelled "More." It's just the sound of your bass, only with more gain. Of course many products claim to do this, and the proof is in the pudding, so I'll let y'all decide this one for yourselves, but personally, I find the line driver to be extremely uncolored and tremendously full range. It makes other preamps which I thought were full range sound somewhat truncated on both the lows and the highs. It just flat out sounds good (in a very clean, precise way), IME/IMHO.

After my first gigging attempts with the line driver and IP322, though, I spent some time talking with Jim, and he ended up adding a variable high pass filter to the design. With cabs that go as deep and strong as the IP line, I find this to be very useful, especially in rooms with poorly designed stages, or loose fixtures.

So, you'll have a killer, clean, preamp, a phantom power safe, great sounding DI, a volume knob, and a variable high pass filter. At my suggestion, the input impedance has been upped a bit to be more friendly to our upright playing and/or doubling brethren (I think somewhere just above 2 Meg). But nothing, really, beyond this. No tone controls, per se. This will appeal to some, and not to others. But, I gotta tell you, for excellent clean tone, even outside of the context of the IP cabs, the Bergantino line driver is my reference preamp.

Tom.

The line driver sounds cool. One of the things that really worried me concerning using the IP's on a gig was the huge low end coming out of them. I remember A/Bing my Epi410UL at Tom's house with the IP310, and the 310 sounding about a zillion times louder below 100 hz or so. While we all went 'ooh and ahh' in the basement, it was a little troubling to me, since on the gig, the Epi410UL has more than enough low end (i.e., the voicing of that cab results in plenty low end but also wonderful articulation). The voicing of the large IP's seemed like trouble to me. There is NOTHING worse on the gig than not being able to control the low end. It seems that Tom experienced what I would have expected when he got these out on a gig and then worked with Jim to provide a high pass filter that seems to help with this issue.

I would think this is less of an issue with the IP112, given the small cab with a relatively high roll-off frequency.

IMO.... as these units go into 'series II' design, it seems that the hi pass filter would be key enough to the usability of these products that it should be build into the unit.

 

[JohnThomasson]

I totally disagree that the Berg line driver is uncolored even though I really liked it. I had one for a couple of weeks. The DI on it was great, it sure had a TON of gain and I dug the tone, but it had a little too much going on in the low end for being a pure line driver. This was well over a year ago. So no filter. Just the one knob. I A/B -ed with several preamps and it was more colored than most. There was no way I could have used it with my upright on a gig without aditional EQ or the filter, which my older model didn't have. I could use my Sans Amp (effect off) or the U5 on my upright in line driver mode and no EQ. I don't know, maybe we all have different ideas about uncolored or flat. i do a fair amount of recording and I'm used to hearing my bass straight into a DI with no EQ or compression and the Berg driver sounded colored or hyped in the low end. It's been to long for me to nail the frequency off the top of my head, but it was probably around 120-180. Other preamps might have a little more of a sound to them, but the Berg had the most shaped sound IMO.

EDIT: Now I'm thinking about the timing and it was probably two years ago (maybe a little more). He had no plans on releasing it at the time. It was just an experiment.

 

[tombowlus]

But notice a true fan, Tom is also a fan of the new tube Sadowsky and he loves EA and the sound of his old Mesa 4x10. What does that tell you?

Well, I know I tend to write a lot, but I have also said that the IP series are, IME/IMHO, the best that I have heard in solid state amplification. I have also said that the Sadowsky SA200 is, IME/IMHO, the best that I have heard in all-tube bass amplification.

Tom.

 

[tombowlus]

The line driver sounds cool. One of the things that really worried me concerning using the IP's on a gig was the huge low end coming out of them. I remember A/Bing my Epi410UL at Tom's house with the IP310, and the 310 sounding about a zillion times louder below 100 hz or so. While we all went 'ooh and ahh' in the basement, it was a little troubling to me, since on the gig, the Epi410UL has more than enough low end (i.e., the voicing of that cab results in plenty low end but also wonderful articulation). The voicing of the large IP's seemed like trouble to me. There is NOTHING worse on the gig than not being able to control the low end. It seems that Tom experienced what I would have expected when he got these out on a gig and then worked with Jim to provide a high pass filter that seems to help with this issue.

Yup. One of my gigs with the line driver and IP322 involved playing on a "sealed" wooden stage (enclosed box design). As soon as I saw it, I knew that it would be trouble, and it was. I didn't have a bass with me that had an active bass cut, so I ended up boosting the treble and mids on my Skjold, and turned down, and this worked out okay. But, this was the even which led to the inclusion fo the variable high pass filter, and having played that same room since, the VHP filter totally solved the problem.

I will also say that I have played several other rooms with the IP cabs where I did not need to use the VHP filter at all, and the "big" low end was all "asset" and no "liability." YMMV, of course, and in general, I am now a very strong proponent of having a VHP filter in your signal chain (regardless of what amp/cab you use). You may not always need it, but when you do, IME, it is the best way to control the low end without changing your tone (as shelving EQ's can do).

Tom.


Edit: I should point out that my initial experience with that boomy stage was with the early programming on the IP322, FWIW. It had some more extreme low end going on, relative to the current programming on the IP310/IP212, which again, have caused no problems, even in rooms where I had experienced problems with other rigs getting too boomy. The IP322 program was modified after this experience (and after some experimentation with the VHP filter), and it no longer has any boominess issues. But still, the VHP filter is a great tool for venues with poorly designed stages or other major issues.