Berhinger, good or bad?

[deebee]

Get a job in the tertiary sector, where the vast majority of people work these days.

Manufacturing has been declining in the West for decades.

Think of all the "new jobs" and products that didn't even exist, or were in common use, a decade or so ago - cell phones, home PCs and software, the Internet, various games consoles etc etc.

They're all software-based, and that's where the growth is, not manufacturing.

FWIW, India in particular is targeting these industries and churning out scads of software engineers etc.

And AFAIK, (one of?) the biggest revenue earners in the UK is "entertainment" eg TV shows, concerts, DVDs etc, which is the real reason the Elton Johns get gongs for the amount of revenue/foreign exchange they generate and pay tax on.

And geez, yer prejudices really are showing! Don't relent and get the kids an iPod - I think they're Chinese-made too (but Steve Jobs gets the dough, lol)!

 

[SamJ]

Get a job in the tertiary sector, where the vast majority of people work these days.

You mean those jobs that haven't gone to India?

Radiology, Sofware Engineering, Tech Support, Banking, and other jobs are today being shipped away.. So are you implying the entire population of the western world must hold Senior Executive positions now to keep employed?

Manufacturing has been declining in the West for decades.

Does that make it a good thing?

Think of all the "new jobs" and products that didn't even exist, or were in common use, a decade or so ago - cell phones, home PCs and software, the Internet, various games consoles etc etc.

They're all software-based, and that's where the growth is, not manufacturing.

FWIW, India in particular is targeting these industries and churning out scads of software engineers etc.

you answered your own point for me in that last line..

And geez, yer prejudices really are showing! Don't relent and get the kids an iPod - I think they're Chinese-made too (but Steve Jobs gets the dough, lol)!

Prejudice against their system government, human rights record, etc and not the people, get that straight.

 

[Tactician]

Of course the Chiness and Asians won't work out how to do admin like we're so good at will they? And they won't work out hopw to do software or services or any of those things we've only got good at in the last 20 years. So when they're doing Software and Insurance and Computing and Finance and Banking........what are we going to be doing. What will we be doing that's worth 40x more than them? Do you really think the West will be suported by people making Big Brother programmes and playing music and inventing things the Asians can't work out for themselves?

I dodn't think were showing bias, I think we're being realistic. The West is Dreamwalking into an huge economic problem.

Enough guys - chill out. I've done the business thing for 35 years and now for the past 5 years just play and teach. As a friend of mine says - "Not in my sphere of control" - NIMSOC. Move on.

 

[Spector_Ray]

If you limit yourself to the scuttlebutt on this forum then that would be the impression you get ... And if you then repeat it without checking your facts first, it becomes truth.

There was a fair bit of the actual filing info from the suit around on the net and it was over the look, writing and colour of the pedals. Check this out for a couple of quotes: http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=2054. Behringer has had two other suits filed against them and both have been settled out of court, like the one above. The first was from Aphex about pedals looking similar again and the second was Mackie over the design of the preamp stage of one of their mixing desks. In the latter case, Mackie simply wanted them to stop selling the units in the US - if it was a total rip off I would have thought they could have pushed for something a lot bigger than that!

If you don't really know what you're talking about then perhaps you could refrain from joining the throng casting stones

Hold on a second. First of all I don't want to get into a shouting match with you over Behringer or any other topic. Second, Behringer has had countless suits filed against them from Mackie to Roland and beyond. Not only have they been in trouble because of copyright infringement, but they've also been in trouble because they had not thoroughly safety tested a multitude of their products. Third, I have read up on Behringer and it's gone way beyond what I've read here in this forum. I've actually read the legal briefs which state the legal accusations, so your assumption of my opinion of ONLY what I've read here is preposterous. The reason I haven't posted my "proof" is because like I said before, I don't want to get into a shouting match. My initial reply was, and I stand by it, that some stay away from Behringer because of their integrity problems and some may stay away because of their perception of Behringer's reliability. I can't speak for all, but IMHO, I don't like Behringer simply because what I've used didn't sound well to me. Everyone has his own opinions and they are all welcome to them. Thank you.

 

[Justice]

I beg your pardon? Who's running with his biasses? You refuse to admit that having LED's behind a tube is a con? I don't care whether it's connected or not! My Ampeg Tubes light up just fine without LED!. If that makes you feel better about your choice to buy from them, God bless, but don't deny a fact.. it's a con, nothing more.

Read my edit to my prior post.. LOUD settled a case with Behringer .. Loud makes Ampeg.. so I guess I have to subsidize Behringer's R&D, and their poor labor practices now?

Dude... Please.

Sam, after looking at your web page, it appears to me that your a pretty materialistic person, so i can understand your arguments, even if your logic is flawwed.

Behringer was not the first company to put an led behind a tube to simulate glow, and they wont be the last. It's not a con. Its called MARKETING, like putting "MADE IN USA" on something. People want to see tubes glow, so if you don't put enough power through them to do that, you either hide the tube or put an led behind it.

Regarding Loud/Mackie/Ampeg...did you even check the date on that press release? 1999? Loud didn't own Ampeg or Mackie in 1999. Loud didn't settle with Behringer. The case was about the Behringer MX8000 mixing board and was basically thrown out as baseless.

But you play USA Fender basses and 100% american made Ampegs, ignoring the fact that BOTH companies do business in China and by purchasing even their USA made products, you are still supporting a company that does business in China And doesnt Fender have a reputation for having some of the worst QC in the market? I'm always hearing, "If you are going to buy a Fender, play a lot of them (both MIA and MIM) to find a good one.

-Crappy sounding
-Made in China with ripped of technology and (using what I like to call quasi slave labor)
-Cheap construction & hardware/speakers



If I have to explain to anyone in this thread why their stuff is crap, then they are unlikely to understand my logic and therefore I will not engage in debates over it.. That's my opinion, end of discussion as far as I am concerned.

and NO, most of the big ticket stuff I own IS NOT made in China, thank you.. so I'm not a hypocrite, as I take extraordinary efforts to avoid Chinese made products. Sadly, I do have some things which are unavoidable like my Apple PowerBook.. and a few other small electronic items..

Well, since Behringer gear is so far below you, I doubt your have ever played any of it to give any credibility to your opinion that its "crappy sounding"

Your second point shows that your obviously subscribe to a lot of internet myths, unless of course you have been to B's factory to witness this first hand. FWIW, when Behrigner built thier own factory in China, they also built a city around it which is where the employees of the factory live. Its one of the things that the Chinese govt requires when companies from other countries want to build factories there (the B factory is pretty much state of the art as well, i hear)

Cheap construction/speakers...actually for the price you pay for a piece of Behringer equipment, they are very well put together, but you have to realize that they are also built to a specific price point. They buy thier parts from the same places that other companies do. Thier compressors use the same opamps and VCA (That VCA's) that popular high end comps like Dwarmer (not sure of that spelling) use. In the Bass Vamp Pro, you will find chips from IBM and Motorola. The bass cabs are constructed from MDF, which a lot of companies use. The early problems with their aluminum coned speakers were resolved when they moved speaker production to their own factory and quit using an outside vendor.

So in answer to one of your other statements...i think you are.

 

[Spector_Ray]

I hope a mod will close this thread. It's become nothing but name-calling and bashing.

 

[Justice]

Hold on a second. First of all I don't want to get into a shouting match with you over Behringer or any other topic. Second, Behringer has had countless suits filed against them from Mackie to Roland and beyond. Not only have they been in trouble because of copyright infringement, but they've also been in trouble because they had not thoroughly safety tested a multitude of their products. Third, I have read up on Behringer and it's gone way beyond what I've read here in this forum. I've actually read the legal briefs which state the legal accusations, so your assumption of my opinion of ONLY what I've read here is preposterous. The reason I haven't posted my "proof" is because like I said before, I don't want to get into a shouting match. My initial reply was, and I stand by it, that some stay away from Behringer because of their integrity problems and some may stay away because of their perception of Behringer's reliability. I can't speak for all, but IMHO, I don't like Behringer simply because what I've used didn't sound well to me. Everyone has his own opinions and they are all welcome to them. Thank you.

Countless? Try 3. Aphex, Mackie, Roland. Aphex won, Mackie and Roland were pretty much tossed out. If you know of more, please enlighten me.

The FCC issue? Was a paperwork error and the FCC being picky. All of Behrigners gear was tested against (and passed) stronger regulations than the FCC require. One of the problems here was that the FCC wanted tests for every item in a line (example, all of the UB series mixers with built in effects - the effects unit is the part that was tested) even though all of the mixers use the SAME effects unit. IF one passed, they should all pass, but the FCC wanted to see 6 tests instead of 1 for items like this.

 

[SamJ]

Sam, after looking at your web page, it appears to me that your a pretty materialistic person, so i can understand your arguments, even if your logic is flawwed.

And you sound like a "hater" or jealous... There is nothing more I can say about that, it's Ad hominem and has nothing to do with this discussion. I frequent various forums, and that's what people do on forums.. show off what they've got. You different?

Behringer was not the first company to put an led behind a tube to simulate glow, and they wont be the last. It's not a con. Its called MARKETING, like putting "MADE IN USA" on something. People want to see tubes glow, so if you don't put enough power through them to do that, you either hide the tube or put an led behind it.

If you are going to compare "marketing" in the Behringer stuck those LED behind the under powered tube, to Made in The USA tags, we're can consider this conversation going nowhere..

Regarding Loud/Mackie/Ampeg...did you even check the date on that press release? 1999? Loud didn't own Ampeg or Mackie in 1999. Loud didn't settle with Behringer. The case was about the Behringer MX8000 mixing board and was basically thrown out as baseless.

Take a class in Managerial Cost Accounting and comeback and try repeating that with any credibility. Costs of that Lawsuit, the R&D that was stolen from a LOUD subsidiary all go into the cost of my US Made Ampeg.

But you play USA Fender basses and 100% american made Ampegs, ignoring the fact that BOTH companies do business in China and by purchasing even their USA made products, you are still supporting a company that does business in China And doesnt Fender have a reputation for having some of the worst QC in the market? I'm always hearing, "If you are going to buy a Fender, play a lot of them (both MIA and MIM) to find a good one.

As a sad result of where we are in todays world, if I were to stop buying anything with any relation to China, I'd be homeless, and own none of those "Materialistic" things.. I try to AVOID Chinese products, and I support the departments that are made in the USA (or other 1st world nation) with in those companies.. LOUD made Crate, and other stuff in China, but I'm not buying Crate, am I?

Well, since Behringer gear is so far below you, I doubt your have ever played any of it to give any credibility to your opinion that its "crappy sounding"

Played it at the Bass Place in Tempe AZ, didn't even know where it was made at the time, it took all of 2 minutes, for me to go on to the next amp/cab as it sounded like crap..

Your second point shows that your obviously subscribe to a lot of internet myths, unless of course you have been to B's factory to witness this first hand. FWIW, when Behrigner built thier own factory in China, they also built a city around it which is where the employees of the factory live. Its one of the things that the Chinese govt requires when companies from other countries want to build factories there (the B factory is pretty much state of the art as well, i hear)

I'll tell you what.. Internet myths are not where I base my views from.. Two credible sources I use are The Roman Catholic Church, and the AFL/CIO... If you've got a beef with labor unions or Christians, then we're once again in a conversation that is going to go nowhere..

Cheap construction/speakers...actually for the price you pay for a piece of Behringer equipment, they are very well put together, but you have to realize that they are also built to a specific price point. They buy thier parts from the same places that other companies do. Thier compressors use the same opamps and VCA (That VCA's) that popular high end comps like Dwarmer (not sure of that spelling) use. In the Bass Vamp Pro, you will find chips from IBM and Motorola. The bass cabs are constructed from MDF, which a lot of companies use. The early problems with their aluminum coned speakers were resolved when they moved speaker production to their own factory and quit using an outside vendor.

So in answer to one of your other statements...i think you are.

The world worked great before we bought from China, and it can work great after we stop.. you (and the rest of the market) don't elect to fuss about where the products that go into what you own are sourced; as such you allow (passively and actively) for this to continue.. I can't be a Don Quixote and get any change in the market.. but if others come to seeing things my way.. I can have an effect.

 

[Justice]

and...i was right...

carry on.

 

[broerevb]

Well, I use behringer for non-critical applications, small parties, backup... Good cheap stuff for that. If more quality needed (off course you can hear the difference), just use other gear.

But I think the introduction of behringer and other similar companies made the music bizz a lot more accessible for many. Pro's, semi-pro's and anyone who needs/can afford better gear still have the choice of going up the ladder, but e.g. my little brother now can afford him a small p.a. that's fairly good. Off course China is very hard competition for every company, but for the users I think it isn't bad at all.

 

[deebee]

Exactly!

 

[King Tut]

Can't speak for there bass gear but I use a powered desk, several mics and a power amp from them - been faultless so far.

My guitarist uses a behringer amp and he seems happy.

 

[daffy]

I'll spell it out..

The settlement is in favor or LOUD.. The courts CLEARLY found that their technology was being ripped off by Behringer.. So what I was saying is that LOUD was SUBSIDIZING Behringer, all the while Behringer is stealing market share due to

You better watch what you write in a pulic forum dude or it will be you being sued for defamation or slander.

There is absolutely nowhere that says this at all - in fact the courts didn't find anything as it was settled out of court. What it does say is that the terms are not going to be disclosed, so you are either wrong or in voilation of the terms of the settlement - your choice.

This is old news, and an old argument and I wasn't even going to reply but I could not let this complete lie go unanswered.

I can clearly see your bias towards the good ol' US made stuff, and that's completely cool with me. I made my choice too, and the funny thing is that none of the amps I GAS over come from the US. Not that I won't buy one, but that I just like the sound of others.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

 

[SamJ]

You better watch what you write in a pulic forum dude or it will be you being sued for defamation or slander.

There is absolutely nowhere that says this at all - in fact the courts didn't find anything as it was settled out of court. What it does say is that the terms are not going to be disclosed, so you are either wrong or in voilation of the terms of the settlement - your choice.

This is old news, and an old argument and I wasn't even going to reply but I could not let this complete lie go unanswered.

I can clearly see your bias towards the good ol' US made stuff, and that's completely cool with me. I made my choice too, and the funny thing is that none of the amps I GAS over come from the US. Not that I won't buy one, but that I just like the sound of others.

Do you think I was born yesterday? I can say what ever I want to say in a public forum about this outfit.. and they can kiss my ass as far as I'm concerned. They make crap in China.. if you enjoy playing your SX or whatever made in China bass thru their crap.. go right ahead, GAS all you want for that rubbish.

As for YOUR bias against "good old US" made stuff, let's see where the electric musical instrument world would be without it? Except for Marshal, there isn't a significant piece of amplification or instrumentation that has originated anywhere else.


G'day mate..

I'm clicking the un-subscribe button this time, this is a waste of time.

 

[Rick_no7]

The reason i'm weary about Behringer is the fact that they keep producing items that are not in line with the US electronics codes. They pay the penalty every year on it because the profit they make of the items outweighs the fines.

I think the product in question wasn't an amp, but still, dealing with the kind of voltage some of their products do, its irresponsible.

 

[Thursday]

What I don't understand about all of this what did Behringer, do to get all this hate, dislike, distaste, just negative feelings?

 

[Justice]

The reason i'm weary about Behringer is the fact that they keep producing items that are not in line with the US electronics codes. They pay the penalty every year on it because the profit they make of the items outweighs the fines.

I think the product in question wasn't an amp, but still, dealing with the kind of voltage some of their products do, its irresponsible.

Thats an out right falsehood, check my post above in reply to SamJ. All Behringer gear is tested against stricter standards than the FCC requires. And the FCC is only concenred with the "digital" portions of the products. Meaning my DDX mixer with digital effects must meet FCC standards, but my UB802 does not since it is entirely analog.

 

[Justice]

I'll spell it out..

The settlement is in favor or LOUD.. The courts CLEARLY found that their technology was being ripped off by Behringer.. So what I was saying is that LOUD was SUBSIDIZING Behringer, all the while Behringer is stealing market share due to

a) cheap labor
b) ripped off R&D (keeps their costs down)

Get it? or do I need to spell it out even more?

Dang, how did I miss this one... I'll remind you again Sam, LOUD has never sued Behringer, Mackie did long before they were ever owned by LOUD.

This is probably best information I have ever read about Aphex/Mackie/Behringer. it was posted by George Perfect in rec.audio.pro in 2003. Enjoy.Invalid Link Removed