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Berklee Auditions
- Thread starter Dr. Cheese
- Start date
Full ride at Juilliard? Pretty cool! Did you graduate? Just curious - really.
I went to music school over 40 years ago, so you can consider my opinions rubbish if you want to....but this is what i think (as I slowly progress into my dotage),
Just attending the school is no guarantee; as in many other aspects of life networking and being in the right place at the right time is important. If you are running your band, then you get to pick and chose, but for the rest of us, we have to try and fit in. It has been my experience that the best player isn't always selected when someone is looking for a bassist, there are usually other criteria as well. Depending on the situation, it may (or may not) be helpful having attended a music school. Not everyone has a positive opinion of musicians who studied at one of these places (again, just my experience, I'm not making a generalization). It was my experience that the students who were already at the top of their game probably got the most out of the program as they were placed with the other better musicians in the top bands. When I went, you not only had to audition to get in, you then auditioned for placement in an ensemble. In my case, I wanted an education, and I wasn't going to study something just so I could get a job. Turns out I didn't make a living in the music business, but I'm fine with that.
Looking back, I think that if you have a good private teacher, and live in an environment (i.e. a city where you can perform with other musicians), you will probably get just as much out of that as you will going to school. Of course the one caveat is that if you want to teach for living, if you have degree then you can apply for teaching positions. Some of the better musicians I knew in high school went to a university to study music, and then teachers college. Their day job was as a teacher, and they played at night and/or the weekends.
Sorry for being so long winded!
Just attending the school is no guarantee; as in many other aspects of life networking and being in the right place at the right time is important. If you are running your band, then you get to pick and chose, but for the rest of us, we have to try and fit in. It has been my experience that the best player isn't always selected when someone is looking for a bassist, there are usually other criteria as well. Depending on the situation, it may (or may not) be helpful having attended a music school. Not everyone has a positive opinion of musicians who studied at one of these places (again, just my experience, I'm not making a generalization). It was my experience that the students who were already at the top of their game probably got the most out of the program as they were placed with the other better musicians in the top bands. When I went, you not only had to audition to get in, you then auditioned for placement in an ensemble. In my case, I wanted an education, and I wasn't going to study something just so I could get a job. Turns out I didn't make a living in the music business, but I'm fine with that.
Looking back, I think that if you have a good private teacher, and live in an environment (i.e. a city where you can perform with other musicians), you will probably get just as much out of that as you will going to school. Of course the one caveat is that if you want to teach for living, if you have degree then you can apply for teaching positions. Some of the better musicians I knew in high school went to a university to study music, and then teachers college. Their day job was as a teacher, and they played at night and/or the weekends.
Sorry for being so long winded!
Some things are true about college in general: About 1/3 of students drop out. You know lots of people who didn't finish college. Conservatory might have a higher dropout rate because changing to a non music major isn't an option. And a lot of college dropouts are the result of financial and family issues.
I don't have a music degree, but I know people who are at various stages of music school. And I know several Berklee grads. Roughly half of my current band have music degrees.
A huge part of music school is the ensembles, which you're assigned to by the faculty, and are "coached" by faculty members. There will be additional ensemble playing, e.g., if a student needs some extra parts for a recital. This is where the "connections" that you hear about are formed: You're showing your peers how you play, and what your work habits are like. It's not about rubbing elbows socially, but about the opinion that they form of you, at work. Partly because of the ensembles, just getting accepted does not put you into a pool of equals.
Reading? This is a puzzle, though the professor obviously knows his program. Speaking as an outsider, on the one hand, they'll teach you to read. On the other, do you want to pay college tuition for remedial training? On many of the other instruments, including upright bass, reading is taken for granted. Also, reading ties into your ability to function in ensembles.
Music education is a perfectly respectable route. In fact one way that our society "consumes" music is by taking lessons. Most of the people I know who earn a middle class living as musicians, teach lessons, along with gigging, composing, and running their own ensembles. One of my mom's neighbors teaches 2 or 3 cello lessons a day. It pays better than what I make gigging.
I don't have a music degree, but I know people who are at various stages of music school. And I know several Berklee grads. Roughly half of my current band have music degrees.
A huge part of music school is the ensembles, which you're assigned to by the faculty, and are "coached" by faculty members. There will be additional ensemble playing, e.g., if a student needs some extra parts for a recital. This is where the "connections" that you hear about are formed: You're showing your peers how you play, and what your work habits are like. It's not about rubbing elbows socially, but about the opinion that they form of you, at work. Partly because of the ensembles, just getting accepted does not put you into a pool of equals.
Reading? This is a puzzle, though the professor obviously knows his program. Speaking as an outsider, on the one hand, they'll teach you to read. On the other, do you want to pay college tuition for remedial training? On many of the other instruments, including upright bass, reading is taken for granted. Also, reading ties into your ability to function in ensembles.
Music education is a perfectly respectable route. In fact one way that our society "consumes" music is by taking lessons. Most of the people I know who earn a middle class living as musicians, teach lessons, along with gigging, composing, and running their own ensembles. One of my mom's neighbors teaches 2 or 3 cello lessons a day. It pays better than what I make gigging.
Yes, but it was a long time ago, 1970, likely before most of you were born (maybe before most of your parents were born!). I started to attend Juilliard in 1964 while I was still in high school, going to classes after regular school was over for the day. Took a bus every other day from the Jersey side of the river across to NYC, dragging a DB with me on the bus, then took a subway to 116th street. In ‘69, Juilliard moved to its new location in Lincoln Center, which I was able to walk to from Port Authority.
I received what was then referred to as a Professional Diploma, now called an Artist Diploma. At that time Juilliard was, quite literally, a music school, not an “accredited” institution … I believe it’s still not accredited in the traditional sense …
- Apr 1, 2000
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I played in the Army and the Air Force. Great gig, killer musicians. I've retired, own my house outright, my kid went to college on my benefits, and I get a check and health care for the rest of my life. Any other gigs offer that?
Cool story, thanks man. Born in 58 myself for context. Happy Holidays all!
No worries about that, someone probably was thinking of someone else when Stanley Clarke came to mind. Plenty of his caliber--or at least close to his caliber--have attended Berklee at any given time.
Sorry to hear about the loss of your friend.
Considering what it costs to attend there now, I would have to say a Berklee education is a terrible financial investment. But I'm not sure there's anything out there quite like Berklee. You go to Berklee because you have to go to Berklee.
If you want a good return on investment, you find a state school with a good music program (or, as others have noted, just find good private instructors), make a plan, and apply yourself.
I say this as someone who attended Berklee for two years, and transferred and got my Bachelor's of Music somewhere else.
I don’t really get what that means. But I suppose that’s to be expected since I never attended Berklee.
From what I gather being a fan of many players that went to school there (Janek Gwizdala, Bob Reynolds, etc.) that its a great school for networking with good musician's. But a lot of the people only go briefly and then drop out. Because it doesn’t take 4 years to meet people and that’s really the biggest benefit of it for most people .
When I was in high school music programs were already starting to get cut. Luckily my high school didn’t lose music classes while I was there. But I was first made aware of music programs being cut when I saw Mr. Hollands opus in like 97 or so. I watched the movie thinking “is this really happening.” While in high school I auditioned and was excepted to Pfeiffer university. Essentially I was offered a scholarship that covered half of what it cost. I decided not to go. It’s an expensive private college so even with the scholarship it was just as expensive as public colleges were with no financial aid. I didn’t want to end up in student loan debt and teaching music only for my job to be cut by a school board whose members salaries each cost more money per year than what they budget for each schools music program. A friend of mine was teaching at Methodist university and they just decided to cut all their music classes about a month ago. My wife works in public education as a school counselor and let’s just say I’m still happy I didn’t major in music education or performance. I work in healthcare and im much better off financially because of it.
When I was in high school music programs were already starting to get cut. Luckily my high school didn’t lose music classes while I was there. But I was first made aware of music programs being cut when I saw Mr. Hollands opus in like 97 or so. I watched the movie thinking “is this really happening.” While in high school I auditioned and was excepted to Pfeiffer university. Essentially I was offered a scholarship that covered half of what it cost. I decided not to go. It’s an expensive private college so even with the scholarship it was just as expensive as public colleges were with no financial aid. I didn’t want to end up in student loan debt and teaching music only for my job to be cut by a school board whose members salaries each cost more money per year than what they budget for each schools music program. A friend of mine was teaching at Methodist university and they just decided to cut all their music classes about a month ago. My wife works in public education as a school counselor and let’s just say I’m still happy I didn’t major in music education or performance. I work in healthcare and im much better off financially because of it.
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@Killing Floor - Bela Fleck & the Flecktones might disagree with you a bit about that statement.
This is so true these days, but back when I started out you were easily able to make a solid living being a musician. I owned houses, bought new cars, put my kids through college, all those typical family-type things. You could do it back then, between doing some teaching, studio work, gigs and somewhat frequent touring making a living was doable. It got much harder in the early 2000’s, and seems almost impossible these days. Gigs are STILL paying $100-$150 a night. That’s what I made in 1970 …
It's probably worth noting that Berklee's entrance requirements have changed dramatically over the years. When I attended (1978-1982 ...and yes, I graduated, with a Bachelor of Music degree) there was no entrance audition: You could show up with crummy technique on your instrument of choice ...you could literally suck* -- and they would take your money, accept you as an incoming freshman, then hold a placement audition to make sure you were getting the appropriate lessons and surrounded by equally good (or sucky) ensemble-mates. And then if you continued to suck you'd probably wash out, but at least by then they'd made their nut off your first semester tuition.
That all changed in (I believe) the mid-1980s, when Berklee realized that in order to get the funding they needed to be the type of college they wanted to be, they had to up their game, raise their standards. And so sometime after I graduated they instituted actual entrance auditions, and became much more of a "real" music college.
...which included a commensurate increase in tuition. You do not wanna know how little I paid for tuition in 78-82!
*True Story: My first day at Berklee, standing in line at the registrar's office to pick up or drop off some documentation, I get in a conversation with the guy standing in front of me. He told me he'd only been playing guitar for 6 months, and had no idea what he wanted to do with his life, but his parents basically told him to go to college or get a job so he figured out he could get into Berklee. 6 months!!!!
I don’t really get what that means. But I suppose that’s to be expected since I never attended Berklee.
Sorry, I could have been clearer. My intended point was that someone who wants to go there so badly to get what he can only get at Berklee is the one who attends there. I probably should add that he'd either better have a lot of money or get a full-ride scholarship, because the income generated solely off a Berklee degree is unlikely to make much of a dent in that student debt.
It's probably worth noting that Berklee's entrance requirements have changed dramatically over the years. When I attended (1978-1982 ...and yes, I graduated, with a Bachelor of Music degree) there was no entrance audition: You could show up with crummy technique on your instrument of choice ...you could literally suck* -- and they would take your money, accept you as an incoming freshman, then hold a placement audition to make sure you were getting the appropriate lessons and surrounded by equally good (or sucky) ensemble-mates. And then if you continued to suck you'd probably wash out, but at least by then they'd made their nut off your first semester tuition.
That all changed in (I believe) the mid-1980s, when Berklee realized that in order to get the funding they needed to be the type of college they wanted to be, they had to up their game, raise their standards. And so sometime after I graduated they instituted actual entrance auditions, and became much more of a "real" music college.
...which included a commensurate increase in tuition. You do not wanna know how little I paid for tuition in 78-82!
*True Story: My first day at Berklee, standing in line at the registrar's office to pick up or drop off some documentation, I get in a conversation with the guy standing in front of me. He told me he'd only been playing guitar for 6 months, and had no idea what he wanted to do with his life, but his parents basically told him to go to college or get a job so he figured out he could get into Berklee. 6 months!!!!
Wow, I had no idea. That said, when I was there in the early '90's, there were some students that had you scratching your head as to how they got in.
In 8th Grade I proudly proclaimed to my parents "I am going to go to Berklee and be a Bass Musician for a living!"
They mercifully told me f-no. And I have been doing software engineering most of the time since.
I am very sad I could not make a go of the Berklee thing. But they would have kicked me out in weeks, if not in the audition, and at least now I can eat!
They mercifully told me f-no. And I have been doing software engineering most of the time since.
I am very sad I could not make a go of the Berklee thing. But they would have kicked me out in weeks, if not in the audition, and at least now I can eat!
The "tell" as far as I know is that a person's mentality can change quite a bit between the ages of 17, when they are making big decisions about what to do after high school, and their early-to-mid twenties when they are trying to make rent in NYC!
