Best Full range 15" driver - Beyma 15WR400 2x15

[3rdcurve]

Hello TB brotherhood! For the last several years I have been using/trying/flipping the new boutique/custom cabs. While I do love my MAS Bodai 110 pair, I also have a longing to play through a good ol' standard 215 like I did in my early playing days. So, for my own enjoyment I have decided to do a DIY 215 cab. This cab may never get gigged, so sensitivity and light weight is really of no concern. I just want a toneful, muscular, traditional 215. That being said, there have been a few new 15" drivers hit the market in the last 5-10 years. What I am looking for is suggestions for the best Full range 15" speaker on the market for a bass cab. Ceramic or Neo, doesn't matter as long as the tone and the kick are there.

Right now my front runner is the Beyma 15WR400.
13.4 lbs
Fs 36Hz
Xmax 6.5mm
Vd 555cm3
Freq 35-4k Hz
400 watts RMS
3" voice coil
Ferrite magnet

Chris Cole and a few others have done builds using the 12" version of this driver, and I really liked the thickness and punch they translated through the videos. I am not concerned with staying light or compact, so I should be able to give them as much volume as the like. Port tuning will be interesting, as I haven't fully wrapped my head around that. Following Duke and Chris's lead, hunting for an F3 of around 60Hz should be desirable. I play 4 string exclusively, and in drop D about 20% of the time. So, theoretically I could tune to around 72 Hz to get the first overtone. Now, that being said..... how does the higher tuning effect power handling? Would I be better off tuning just below the fundamental to get a tighter sealed cab vibe? Say 36 Hz, which is also the Fs of the driver?

On to some cab sim software.........

 

[kartiste]

A week or so ago I put a Faital 15FH520 in a 121 liter box, 45.5Hz. Saved 6.9 lbs over the K140 that was in it. Haven't had an opportunity to gig or even rehearse with it yet, but it sounds great in the living room. Very "quick" and punchy, and responds well to EQ at the upper end. 17mm Xdamage. I'm setting up to run it with a Peavey MiniMega. Using KOSMOS A (sub-octave effect) on stuff like Square Hammer/Ghost, Bloodhound Gang/Discovery Channel, Saint Hotel/Move the floor shaking is awsome, with no hint of speaker distress (I do have an HPF @ 35Hz). I don't know how big a box you're wanting to build, but you might want to take a look at this Faital.

 

[BadExample]

If you use winisd be sure and get the pro version. Its free and gets updated.

Speaking of Chris Cole, his 15 + 6" mid build would be a great first DIY IMO.

 

[lookiel]

I have no experience with the Beyma (although Chris Cole’s 15/6 sounded pretty sweet!) but in my search over the years for a good 15 I’ve found the Faital 15PR400 to be quite excellent as a full range driver with nice dispersion.

 

[3rdcurve]

I have no experience with the Beyma (although Chris Cole’s 15/6 sounded pretty sweet!) but in my search over the years for a good 15 I’ve found the Faital 15PR400 to be quite excellent as a full range driver with nice dispersion.

At one time I had an LDS built Faital 15PR400 Loaded 2x15, and I also stuffed a 4 ohm version into a Genz Contour combo. Both sounded great, but got slightly mushy in the lows. I am searching for a driver that will give me a nice full range tone like the Faital Pro, but be a bit more muscular in its delivery. I don't necessarily want them to grind like my old bag end stack, but a similar punch would be ideal. The Beyma's are fairly sensitive and have the capability to move plenty of air. If you listen to Chris's demo of his slant 212 cab with the Beyma 12's you can hear the overall thickness and authority of the tone. I would just build his slant cab, but I am looking for a slightly warmer and larger sounding version of that tone.

I was doing some modeling last night, and have come to a point where I could use some input from more knowledgeable builders.

I can do I ginormous Fridge sized cab with a net volume of about 7cu.ft.
With a tuning of 44Hz i would get an F3 of 50Hz and an F10 of 36Hz.

or

I can do a more compact cab with a net volume of around 5cu.ft.
With a tuning of around 41Hz, and F3 of 62Hz and an F10 of 39Hz.

 

[ThisBass]

IME it make no sense to tune for lower numbers with smaller going net volume
I'd tune the 7 cu ft for about 50Hz and the 5 cu ft volume little bit higher tuning number versus the 7 cu ft.

I would just build his slant cab, but I am looking for a slightly warmer and larger sounding version of that tone.

How about this?

 

[BogeyBass]

using a reflex cab? why wouldnt you tune low possible.

F3 changes if you boost EQ its better get a decent amount power handling make box big enough to not make it boomy but keep it on the smaller side. tune to Fs and be done. making it look pretty on the screen in static graph isnt all what its about. and a " dip" in F3 easily is made up with Eq and more the better if you have highpass to save it. with high pass around 35 and reflex hell at 35 too bang bang little more snap

likewise about where its at if speaker does well in 3.2 or 3.4 cubic per driver and you get big tank 7 cubic or 8 cubic 2x15 ..F it goe with it. id love a chunker 2x15 with tilt back style wheels. If speaker does well in 3.4 or 3.8 cubic then a "big box" sound is notably different in real life. regardless if the model shows little dippy doo and you assume F3 is lower.

what does a single driver model in plain jane BB4 alignment. just uses FS of the speaker and adjusts volume to get the alignment. with driver with such a low Fs its ideal have lowest Fs as possible if going for big lows. this one has it why not go low

 

[BogeyBass]

nevermind it sits perfect in 3 cubic feet..nice

6 cubic @36hz all done

basically another driver that do fine in a TL606.
3 cubic feet works out well for alot 15" drivers.

and it work good in basic stepdown mode at 40hz

anyways BB4 is 3.1 @36hz

if you can get a BB4 without a huge box like 5 cubic with a 15" all good especially if it ends up being a flat generic 3 cubic feet. some what typically volume for a 15. Nice seems like fun driver

 

[ThisBass]

using a reflex cab? why wouldnt you tune low possible.

F3 changes if you boost EQ its better get a decent amount power handling make box big enough to not make it boomy but keep it on the smaller side. tune to Fs and be done. making it look pretty on the screen in static graph isnt all what its about. and a " dip" in F3 easily is made up with Eq and more the better if you have highpass to save it. with high pass around 35 and reflex hell at 35 too bang bang little more snap

likewise about where its at if speaker does well in 3.2 or 3.4 cubic per driver and you get big tank 7 cubic or 8 cubic 2x15 ..F it goe with it. id love a chunker 2x15 with tilt back style wheels. If speaker does well in 3.4 or 3.8 cubic then a "big box" sound is notably different in real life. regardless if the model shows little dippy doo and you assume F3 is lower.

what does a single driver model in plain jane BB4 alignment. just uses FS of the speaker and adjusts volume to get the alignment. with driver with such a low Fs its ideal have lowest Fs as possible if going for big lows. this one has it why not go low

Theoretically you'd get "similar" response with some EQ boost at the lows. And theoretically you'd get a lower total response with lower tuning.
While in practice the feel is different and the cab with higher tuning will provide some "warmer and larger" sound versus lowish tuning. Its not possible to get same "warm and large" sound by boosting the lows with a lowish tuned cab.
The reason why has something to do with system damping respectively filter alignment.
Too highish tuning may cause a "muddy" loosen sound while rather lowish tuning predicts a dry and sterile sound. MI bass cabs ain't HiFi cabs and should provide some musical feel to the player. That's why I tend to tune at highish side of reasonable range with MI cabs.

 

[3rdcurve]

Thanks for the insight fellas. Anytime I model above the mid 40s I get a hump and a steep roll off. To me the hump signifies booming. Also the group delay gets a hump between 50 and 100 hz. The group delay hump will make it feel “slower”.

One spec I started paying attention to this time around is the BL “T-S” measurement which is basically the strength of the motor. The higher the number the stronger the motor. I take this as how controlled and and powerful the lows will be. Agian you have to take the moving mass into account, but for the most part it should be a good indicator. Here are a few numbers for comparison.

Eminence Deltalite II 15- 15.7

Faital Pro 15PR400 - 16.7

Eminence Kappalite 3015 - 18.6

Beyma 15WR400 - 19.2

The difference between the Fatail and 3015 could account for the perception of more muscular lows from the eminence. As you can see, the beyma has a more powerful motor structure yet. I love the tight controlled bottom of sealed cabs, but look for a bit bigger and warmer sound. So, the goal hear is to split the difference.

 

[kartiste]

Thanks for the insight fellas. Anytime I model above the mid 40s I get a hump and a steep roll off. To me the hump signifies booming. Also the group delay gets a hump between 50 and 100 hz. The group delay hump will make it feel “slower”.

One spec I started paying attention to this time around is the BL “T-S” measurement which is basically the strength of the motor. The higher the number the stronger the motor. I take this as how controlled and and powerful the lows will be. Agian you have to take the moving mass into account, but for the most part it should be a good indicator. Here are a few numbers for comparison.

Eminence Deltalite II 15- 15.7

Faital Pro 15PR400 - 16.7

Eminence Kappalite 3015 - 18.6

Beyma 15WR400 - 19.2

The difference between the Fatail and 3015 could account for the perception of more muscular lows from the eminence. As you can see, the beyma has a more powerful motor structure yet. I love the tight controlled bottom of sealed cabs, but look for a bit bigger and warmer sound. So, the goal hear is to split the difference.

Interesting. JBL K-140 Bl is 22.3.

 

[BogeyBass]

One spec I started paying attention to this time around is the BL “T-S” measurement which is basically the strength of the motor. The higher the number the stronger the motor. I take this as how controlled and and powerful the lows will be.

Somewhat but not always, its a electrical/mechanical property and larger magnet is needed to provide reasonable performance of longer voicecoils, heavier reinforced cones or very stiff cones. as cone moves farther away from the magnet in a generalized manner you need stronger magnet for it to maintain control and provide low distortion or accurate reproduction. or a heavier reinforced cone likewise needs larger magnet to maintain sensitivity or efficiency takes more to keep things moving you could simply say

likewise can be used for efficiency some designs tradeoff bandwidth such as bass response for more higher sensitivity like 99 to 101 dB compared to 95 to 98 dB. and will often incorporate a very large magnet and smaller 3mm gap. compared to a "bass" driver which will trade sensitivity for a larger 5mm and up gap but still require a large magnet.

So yes its common to see a large magnet for more " bass" frequencies since low frequency requires longer cone travel. but when dealing with sensitivity a lighter cone or loose/tight suspension can also effect magnet size. since its related to total mechanical qualities Qms and Qms will effect Qts. magnet size can be played with also in relation to many parameters that changes bandwidth product and if the driver is more suitable for sealed or vented applications and likewise the very strange world of open back speaker design.

 

[Bassmec]

Interesting. JBL K-140 Bl is 22.3.

Never tried it personally but a chap from the London Microphone Center swore blind that he reconed JBL K140's
with Beymar cone kits.
PS. The geometry must have been very, very similar, still no need to reinvent the wheel.X

 

[BadExample]

Thanks for the insight fellas. Anytime I model above the mid 40s I get a hump and a steep roll off. To me the hump signifies booming.

Keeping in mind the human ear is much less sensitive to LF than to higher frequencies, I think the hump is not likely to be heard from the cab. I haven't made a reflex cab in eons, but I think you'll want to tune above and HPF above resonance.

What is the frequency of the drop D and its' first harmonic? I know the first harmonic of the open (low) B is around 60 Hz, and it overshadows the fundamental in amplitude. The only reason I bring this up is I wonder what the minimum (reasonably loud) frequency is needed to reproduce the drop D tuning. Maybe it doesn't work the same as Low B, I dunno. Googled and didn't find.

 

[3rdcurve]

Drop D is around 36.5 Hz so first overtone of 73ish.

 

[HaphAsSard]

D1 is 36.708 (and D2 73.416, ça va almost sans dire) in case today is Decimal Monday:
Liutaio Mottola Lutherie Information Website

 

[ThisBass]

Thanks for the insight fellas. Anytime I model above the mid 40s I get a hump and a steep roll off.

A smallish hump above 100Hz is often misunderstood as a "not wanted" characteristic that might cause sound anomalies. Every cabinet acts as a bandpass filter so its mathematically not possible to get a perfectly flat line response at the low mids response.

To me the hump signifies booming.

Try to imagine an parametric EQ and if a little hump (little boost caused by some EQ adjustment) actually could cause booming.

Also the group delay gets a hump between 50 and 100 hz. The group delay hump will make it feel “slower”.

Honestly that's wrong understanding of group delay. Different group delay may cause issues with different cabs but group delay is not and never suitable to cause a "slower" sound for a single cab. At the other hand side group delay may tell something about about the cab (filter characteristic) alignment.

One spec I started paying attention to this time around is the BL “T-S” measurement which is basically the strength of the motor. The higher the number the stronger the motor.

The motors strength is representated by B (magnetic flux density). While wire length L belongs to the VC which is not (directly) a part of the motor structure.
I have to agree I might be wrong with this "terminology" of motor structure, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in this regard.

I take this as how controlled and and powerful the lows will be. Agian you have to take the moving mass into account, but for the most part it should be a good indicator. Here are a few numbers for comparison.

Eminence Deltalite II 15- 15.7

Faital Pro 15PR400 - 16.7

Eminence Kappalite 3015 - 18.6

Beyma 15WR400 - 19.2

Without the number for Mms (moving mass) and Cms (compliance) the numbers for B*l mean nothing but B*l

Common motion equation

x => travel distance, and its deviations Acceleration and Velocity
m => Mms
c => Cms
k => damping
F(t) => [B*l]*i(t)

Note, mechanical force F caused by current I in the form of F=B*l*I is common known as "Lorentz force".
Of course the general motion equation can't represent a real loudspeaker but its quite easy to notice possible trade offs. Lowish Mms does improve efficience, less wire length l can be compensated by larger flux desnsity B for same F(t). That's at least ONE reason why vintage loudspeakers sometimes have those huge magnets.

The difference between the Fatail and 3015 could account for the perception of more muscular lows from the eminence. As you can see, the beyma has a more powerful motor structure yet. I love the tight controlled bottom of sealed cabs, but look for a bit bigger and warmer sound. So, the goal hear is to split the difference.

As shown above its not possible to address highish B*L numbers directly to "muscular lows".
But its possible to adjust cab design for a bit "bigger and warmer" sound just with cab tuning.

 

[ThisBass]

Anytime I model above the mid 40s I get a hump and a steep roll off.

It would help a lot if you post the response.

 

[5StringPocket]

Thought I'd post an updated design here since the Beyma 15WR400 is my favorite 15" driver in all the builds I've done over the years. The Faital 15PR400 comes in a close 2nd and is preferred if you need to shave off a few pounds, but the low end slam and mid presence of this ferrite magnet Beyma put it over the top for me. This is a mid-sized but still manageable 2-way enclosure at an estimated weight of about 44.5 lbs. I have a slightly smaller version of this with the Faital as documented in the link below and really like it, but the extra 0.5 cu-ft of volume and slightly higher tuning lowers the F3 frequency to 55Hz and the F0 to 79 Hz without a pronounced bump in the upper bass/low mid area. It's only up 0.5dB at 100 Hz and plateaus at 0.8dB by 140 Hz. It should be able to handle full rated power down to 39 Hz where it reaches the excursion limit. Based on my previous experience with this driver I think the bass response would be full and defined, not bloated or boomy. If I ever build another 115 this would be it.
DIY 115: B&C 15CL76 with Faital Tractrix Horn

 

[agedhorse]

Shorten the port by an inch.