Best way to learn theory/application ... old dog, new tricks

[Phlipper]

I promised myself I would learn to play jazz on guitar and bass before I died. I'm old as hell so I need to get moving.

My verbose history, because I'm hoping someone here has had a similar experience and can give advice:

I'm 57 years old and have been playing guitar for over 40 years. Self-taught (of course) and was good enough at 14 yo to play lead guitar under-age in bar bands doing top 40, country and classic rock covers. I've been gigging off and on ever since, even playing some larger opening gigs. Started subbing on bass about 10 years ago and fell in love with it. Went thru a couple years of bass exclusively. I learn quickly by ear and used to do a lot of fill-in gigs because I could nail a three set list in a week. I made decent money at it before the crash in '08.

My problem is that I seem 'stuck' no matter what I do. I am a decent guitarist and bass player but I feel like I'll never be able to solo on guitar even close to Joe Bonamassa, or play the complicated and fast jazz licks like Scott Devine on bass. I feel like a one-trick pony. My one trick is pretty good and it works for me. But I want to learn jazz the 'right' way. And I hope to open up the fretboard on both instruments in general.

I've struggled to learn jazz on guitar and bass a few times over the years. Started working thru Jody Fisher's three jazz books but got stuck on the theory. Have studied theory a little online with various teachers. And bought Ariane Cap's theory book a couple of years ago, currently working on it again. I seem to feel things will open up if I can get theory thru to my big gourd head. But I always get frustrated and give up (may be the problem LOL) and wind up back in minor pentatonic wonderland on guitar and back into my usual patterns on bass. Again ... I'm pretty decent on both instruments and have worked a lot filling in with very accomplished players. But I often feel like I'm just a well-practiced mimic. That I don't really understand what I'm playing, no matter how well I can pull it off. One example ... I have studied the circle of fifths/fourths via four online sites and three books. And I still just do not get the practical application ... "so I know what key I'm in by the number of flats? Why don't I just listen to the song?" . I even worked with a co-worker who is a graduate of North Texas jazz program for a couple months. Did stuff like harmonizing the major scale on paper. But the stuff just does not stick for long and parts seem to never make sense. I may be getting stupid as I get older, but I do have degrees in Industrial Engineering and Computer Science. I thought I could eventually figure this stuff out well enough that it stuck and helped me expand beyond my usual techniques and note choices.

So I was curious if anyone else who is older has struggled similarly, and how you overcome it? Could be the issue is just lack of motivation to push thru? Too easily frustrated?

Is it possible I need a different kind of instruction? Has anyone in a similar position wound up finally clicking with an in-person teacher?

Is it possible I just waited way too late to start and I should stick with what I know and just 'learn' jazz purely by learning the songs, like I've always done, and allow the techniques/progressions to eventually become part of my repertoire?

If you have been in a similar position, how did you push past it? Or did you stick to what you knew to assimilate jazz?

 

[Malcolm35]

I love to listen to jazz. But, very little live jazz happens in my part of the woods. Reading between the lines I think that may be one of your problems. How often do you get the chance to play jazz -- with live people?

Also reading between the lines when you identify a chord do know it's "spelling" with out having to think about it.

Offered for what that is worth.

 

[Phlipper]

I love to listen to jazz. But, very little live jazz happens in my part of the woods. Reading between the lines I think that may be one of your problems. How often do you get the chance to play jazz -- with live people?

Not often, but have the opportunity locally if I can get my chops in shape and not just be a mimic. There are a few good jazz guys locally that sit in at a local wine bar. I learned about The Real Book from one of the guitarists.

Also reading between the lines when you identify a chord do know it's "spelling" with out having to think about it.

Offered for what that is worth.

No. Unfortunately, I have to look at my fingers and figure out what each note is. One of the things I was hoping to remedy with increased theory/fretboard study.

 

[Phlipper]

I guess I should clarify point one ... if I know the song that's gonna be played I can actually sit down and woodshed thru Autumn Leaves, for example. Using the Real Book and knowing the chords and listening to someone's version of the bass line. I'm a good mimic. But I'd prefer to finally be able to just look at the chord chart and know that I can construct cool walking bass lines for each chord based on my understanding of theory. The way an upright player did at a gig my wife and I once attended. He said he doesn't have to know the song, but can read the chords and know where he needs to go and also know what to stay away from. I was getting to a very rudimentary level of that at one time, but it took a lot of study for each song and a lot of practice. And still there was so much I didn't understand.

 

[dreamadream99]

The important thing about theory, is it kind of has to go in a particular order, since concepts build on each other. I don’t know anything about the books or videos you’ve been learning from, but if you learn piecemeal by skipping randomly around, it’s akin to being shown one card from a deck each week, at at the end of 52 weeks, asked to explain a deck of cards.

Any study of theory should go like this:

1. Order of sharps and flats
2. Key signatures.
3. Scales
4. Harmonized scales
5. Chords
6. Qualities (major, minor, augmented, diminished, suspended)
7. Chord inversions
8. Extensions (7, 9, 11, 13)
9. Alterations (lowered and raised chord tones)
10. Progressions
11. Voice leading
12. Harmonic analysis

Concurrently, it is a good idea to study Aural Skills:

1. Interval recognition ascending
2. Interval recognition descending
3. Singing intervals
4. Melodic dictation
5. Sight singing
6. Recognizing chord qualities by sound
7. Recognizing chord extensions by sound
8. Recognizing chord alterations by sound
9. Chord inversions
10. Chord progressions

About midway through each, start walking bass. Learn to linearly walk from root to root exercising best note choices depending upon key and chord.

*Bonus points for following up these studies with composition, arranging, and orchestrating.

 

[Malcolm35]

.... No. Unfortunately, I have to look at my fingers and figure out what each note is. One of the things I was hoping to remedy with increased theory/fretboard study.

Dirt simple Jazz -- Get a chord chart of the song you want to play then follow the chords and play the notes of the chord to the beat the drummer is laying down.
Eric Clapton - Autumn Leaves (Chords)

In jazz we play notes of the chord 95% of the time. Knowing the notes of each chord is step one. Step two is doing that with about a zillion songs so you get a feel for jazz. My old standby chart of generic bass lines using the major scale box as a Rosetta stone may be helpful.

Major Scale Box.
.......Index...Middle..Ring....Little
G~~|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---| 1st string
D~~|---6---|-------|---7---|---8---|
A~~|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
E~~|-------|-R/T---|-------|---2---|4th string
You may recognize this pattern with dots.
Adding the numbers lets the pattern come alive.

Cmaj7 chord coming up in the song. Find a C note on the 3rd or 4th string and put this box's R over that C note. Then play the "spelling" for the Cmaj7 chord. That spelling is listed below and it is R-3-5-7. If you wanted to play the C major scale, that spelling is T-2-3-4-5-6-7.

Basic Chord Spellings

• Major Triad = R-3-5 for the C chord.
• Minor Triad = R-b3-5 for the Cm chord.
• Diminished Chord = R-b3-b5 for the Cdim chord.

7th Chord Spellings

• Maj7 = R-3-5-7 for the Cmaj7 chord.
• Minor 7 = R-b3-5-b7 for the Cm7 chord.
• Dominant 7 = R-3-5-b7 for the C7 chord.
• ½ diminished = R-b3-b5-b7 for the Cm7b5 chord.
• Full diminished = R-b3-b5-bb7 for the C with the little o - no strike through.

See a chord and play it's chord tones. As every key will have three major, three minor and one diminished chord it's a good idea to get your major, minor and diminished bass line chord tones into muscle memory so when you see a chord your fingers just know what will work. Now the song may only give you enough room for the root, or root five - adapt and get as many chord tones into your bass line as needed. Root on 1 and a steady groove from the other chord tones plus something to call attention to the chord change is what we do.

Scale Spellings Yep, gotta do our scales so our fingers know where the notes are and our ears get used to the good and bad sounds. Scales are a right of passage thing. Got to know them, however, chord tones is what we get paid to play.

• Major Scale = T-2-3-4-5-6-7 Home base
• Major Pentatonic = T-2-3-5-6 Leave out the 4 & 7
• Natural Minor Scale = T-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7 Major scale with the 3, 6 & 7 flatted.
• Minor Pentatonic = T-b3-4-5-b7 Leave out the 2 & 6.
• Blues = T-b3-4-b5-5-b7 Minor pentatonic with the blue note b5 added.
• Harmonic Minor Scale = T-2-b3-4-5-b6-7 Natural minor with a natural 7.
• Melodic Minor Scale = T-2-b3-4-5-6-7 Major scale with a b3.

Let the major scale be your home base then change a few notes and you have something different. No need to memorize a zillion patterns. Let the major scale pattern be your go to pattern - then adapt/adjust from there.

Generic Notes - for your bass line.

• The root, five and eight are generic (R-5-8-5) and fit most any chord. Remember the diminished has a flatted 5.
• The 3 is generic to all major chords. So R-3-5-3 will fit under any major chord.
• The b3 is generic to all minor chords. And R-b3-5-8 will fit under any minor chord. Why the 8? Well the 8 is just another root in the next octave.
• The 7 is generic to all maj7 chords. Yep, R-3-5-7 fits nicely.
• The b7 is generic to all dominant seventh and minor seventh chords. G7 = R-3-5-b7 or Gm7 = R-b3-5-b7.
• The 6 is neutral and adds color, help yourself to 6’s. Love the sound of R-3-5-6 with a major chord.
• The 2 and 4 make good passing notes. Don’t linger on them or stop on them, keep them passing.
• In making your bass line help yourself to those notes, just use them correctly.
• Roots, fives, eights and the correct 3 & 7 will play a lot of bass.

Find the root or tonic note in the first 5 frets of your bass, then switch over to the chord spelling (R-3-5-7) for the other notes needed.

Call up a chord chart on one of your jazz favorites and play the chord spelling of the active chord, to the beat of the song.

Yep you gotta know all the chord spellings.

 

[thabassmon]

I think it would help to apply the theory on a tune. Sitting working on scales is not music and with as much playing as I assume you've done in your lifetime, I doubt that would be beneficial to you.

I don't really think theory is that useful by itself, I mean you could learn that there are such options as triad pairs, Lydian augmented, whole tone scales etc by unless you play them, they are just conceptual.

I'd recommend picking a tune, learn to play the melody, both exactly as it is and later add embellishments if you wish in as many registers as your instrument allows.

Learn the chord progression, practice playing walking bass, play the arpeggios of the chords. Learn a ii- V lick. Apply it to every ii-V within the tune. Try leading in to the lick using diatonic note, chromatic note, enclosing your starting note, try varying the lick, try altering the lick to fit over a ii-V in minor. Learn a few ii-V licks and add them to you vocab, practice them in all keys.

Once you have a few ii-V licks in you vocab, can arpeggiate through a tune and can play the melody and walk the changes. You should be able to play the tune, I always feel the more familiar you are with tunes the better you can play them.

Listen to recordings and immerse yourself in the feel and phrasing. As you get more familiar, take the licks you like and work them through the 12 keys and into you vocab. It would be good to check out what chords the licks are played over and how the notes of the lick relate to the underlying harmony.

But first step. Pick a tune and Learn the melody and chord progression. Listen to different performances of the tune for guidance and inspiration.


Some suggestions
Autumn leaves
All the things you are
Just friends
The days of wine and roses
Yardbird suite

 

[Bushrod Johnson]

In addition to all this great stuff you should listen to a lot of music that you’d like to play like. And think the theory behind what you’re hearing while you’re listening.

 

[BassChuck]

Learn to play the melodies in your head.
Don't worry about mimicking. Mimic so many things and mix them up. Nobody will know the ingredients, just the final product.

 

[JRA]

i think Malcolm35 has offered some great stuff! but i'm sure some/most of it has slipped by you. you'll need to deal with:

lack of motivation to push thru

Too easily frustrated

I always get frustrated and give up

i read your OP as saying: "i want to know this stuff, but i don't want to have to learn it."

it takes commitment. good luck!

 

[drumvsbass]

A good exercise is to arpeggiate all the modes in one position, referencing their numerical (ii V I etc) name to that arpeggio.

Example in Cmaj7 staying in the position on the E string at the 8th fret arpeggiate the following without changing positions. Play all the notes in that position from top to bottom.

On a 4 string notes from bottom to the top in one position in C

I - Cmaj7 (B,C,E,G,B,C,E)
ii - Dmin7 (C,D,F,A,C,D,F)
iii - Emin7 (B,D,E,G,B,D,E)
IV - Fmaj7 (C,E,F,A,C,E,F)
V - G7 (B,D,F,G,B,D,F)
vi - Amin7 (C,E,G,A,C,E)
vii - Bmin7b5 (B,D,F,A,B,D,F)

This helps when playing through jazz changes to not have to move your fretting hand everytime there is a new chord. The pattern is already likely under your fingers.

 

[MVE]

I think you are trying to bite off more than you can chew. Like Dreamadream said, there is an order to learn this stuff and you have to learn it on your instrument, in time. You can read in a book that an m7 is 1,3b,5,7b; but if you aren’t playing it to a metronome, you aren’t REALLY learning it.

Start with 3 part Maj, min, aug, and diminished, with your met at 60bpm using C as the root. Say the intervals as you play them, 1-3-5; 1-3b-5; 1-3-5#; 1,3b,5b.
Then say the notes, C-E-G; C-Eb-G;
After you get that down pm me and I’ll tell you what to do next.

 

[Phlipper]

I appreciate all the technical advice greatly. Printed some of it and added to my notebook.

I'm actually working methodically thru Arian Cap's book and supplamenting it with two others. Like when I get thru the major scale in hers, I'll then go thru the same material in Gorenberg's and Chad Johnson.

I was more asking 'big picture' wise if other older guys started late and struggled and how they overcame that. What worked best for them.

But again ... I sincerely appreciate the technical advice as well. Thanks!

 

[MVE]

I appreciate all the technical advice greatly. Printed some of it and added to my notebook.

I'm actually working methodically thru Arian Cap's book and supplamenting it with two others. Like when I get thru the major scale in hers, I'll then go thru the same material in Gorenberg's and Chad Johnson.

I was more asking 'big picture' wise if other older guys started late and struggled and how they overcame that. What worked best for them.

But again ... I sincerely appreciate the technical advice as well. Thanks!

Big picture, improvised jazz solos can be broken down into three basic concepts:
chord-tones - playing notes in the chord
Scale-tones - playing notes in the scale (typically from another mode, ie playing E Phrygian over a song in C Maj)
And chromatic - everything that isn’t the above.

If you just want an ah-ha feeling, try using modes of a scale to improvise over a song. For instance, you mentioned Autumn Leaves. It’s typically played in Gm. If the recording you are playing along with is in fact in Gm, try improvising in another mode like Eb Lydian.

But the above is just a single example, you really need to KNOW all the chords and all the modes before you can apply this in a useful way.
Otherwise, you will just get stuck in a very similar rut, to the one you are in, of playing the Lydian scale from the 6th note of whatever minor scale a song is in.

 

[Malcolm35]

..... I was more asking 'big picture' wise if other older guys started late and struggled and how they overcame that. What worked best for them. But again ... I sincerely appreciate the technical advice as well. Thanks!

Started my journey into music when I retired at 65 in 2000. Yes do the math, I'm now 85. I liked theory from the very first when my instructor told me about how a I-IV-V chord progression works. We played three chord Country, but, I liked studying theory, and did so on my own.

You eat the theory hamburger one bite at a time; too much at once makes you sick.

Happy trails.

 

[Robscott]

Dirt simple Jazz -- Get a chord chart of the song you want to play then follow the chords and play the notes of the chord to the beat the drummer is laying down.
Eric Clapton - Autumn Leaves (Chords)

View attachment 4019672

In jazz we play notes of the chord 95% of the time. Knowing the notes of each chord is step one. Step two is doing that with about a zillion songs so you get a feel for jazz. My old standby chart of generic bass lines using the major scale box as a Rosetta stone may be helpful.

Major Scale Box.
.......Index...Middle..Ring....Little
G~~|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---| 1st string
D~~|---6---|-------|---7---|---8---|
A~~|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
E~~|-------|-R/T---|-------|---2---|4th string
You may recognize this pattern with dots.
Adding the numbers lets the pattern come alive.

Cmaj7 chord coming up in the song. Find a C note on the 3rd or 4th string and put this box's R over that C note. Then play the "spelling" for the Cmaj7 chord. That spelling is listed below and it is R-3-5-7. If you wanted to play the C major scale, that spelling is T-2-3-4-5-6-7.

Basic Chord Spellings

• Major Triad = R-3-5 for the C chord.
• Minor Triad = R-b3-5 for the Cm chord.
• Diminished Chord = R-b3-b5 for the Cdim chord.

7th Chord Spellings

• Maj7 = R-3-5-7 for the Cmaj7 chord.
• Minor 7 = R-b3-5-b7 for the Cm7 chord.
• Dominant 7 = R-3-5-b7 for the C7 chord.
• ½ diminished = R-b3-b5-b7 for the Cm7b5 chord.
• Full diminished = R-b3-b5-bb7 for the C with the little o - no strike through.

See a chord and play it's chord tones. As every key will have three major, three minor and one diminished chord it's a good idea to get your major, minor and diminished bass line chord tones into muscle memory so when you see a chord your fingers just know what will work. Now the song may only give you enough room for the root, or root five - adapt and get as many chord tones into your bass line as needed. Root on 1 and a steady groove from the other chord tones plus something to call attention to the chord change is what we do.

Scale Spellings Yep, gotta do our scales so our fingers know where the notes are and our ears get used to the good and bad sounds. Scales are a right of passage thing. Got to know them, however, chord tones is what we get paid to play.

• Major Scale = T-2-3-4-5-6-7 Home base
• Major Pentatonic = T-2-3-5-6 Leave out the 4 & 7
• Natural Minor Scale = T-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7 Major scale with the 3, 6 & 7 flatted.
• Minor Pentatonic = T-b3-4-5-b7 Leave out the 2 & 6.
• Blues = T-b3-4-b5-5-b7 Minor pentatonic with the blue note b5 added.
• Harmonic Minor Scale = T-2-b3-4-5-b6-7 Natural minor with a natural 7.
• Melodic Minor Scale = T-2-b3-4-5-6-7 Major scale with a b3.

Let the major scale be your home base then change a few notes and you have something different. No need to memorize a zillion patterns. Let the major scale pattern be your go to pattern - then adapt/adjust from there.

Generic Notes - for your bass line.

• The root, five and eight are generic (R-5-8-5) and fit most any chord. Remember the diminished has a flatted 5.
• The 3 is generic to all major chords. So R-3-5-3 will fit under any major chord.
• The b3 is generic to all minor chords. And R-b3-5-8 will fit under any minor chord. Why the 8? Well the 8 is just another root in the next octave.
• The 7 is generic to all maj7 chords. Yep, R-3-5-7 fits nicely.
• The b7 is generic to all dominant seventh and minor seventh chords. G7 = R-3-5-b7 or Gm7 = R-b3-5-b7.
• The 6 is neutral and adds color, help yourself to 6’s. Love the sound of R-3-5-6 with a major chord.
• The 2 and 4 make good passing notes. Don’t linger on them or stop on them, keep them passing.
• In making your bass line help yourself to those notes, just use them correctly.
• Roots, fives, eights and the correct 3 & 7 will play a lot of bass.

Find the root or tonic note in the first 5 frets of your bass, then switch over to the chord spelling (R-3-5-7) for the other notes needed.

Call up a chord chart on one of your jazz favorites and play the chord spelling of the active chord, to the beat of the song.

Yep you gotta know all the chord spellings.

View attachment 4019655

Great post! OP if you have a good ear, which you do, this is all the theory you need. Stay away from mode theory, you will never need it!

 

[Phlipper]

A quick technical aside - cuz it's been two years since I went thru Ari's book. I quit playing and sold everything. I've forgotten a lot and started from page one this week. Also had a head injury (and now blind in one eye) on Sept 12th. So my brain may not be working.

_______________________
Autumn Leaves. It’s typically played in Gm. If the recording you are playing along with is in fact in Gm, try improvising in another mode like Eb Lydian.
_______________________

Is this statement true?

I am playing Autumn Leaves in Gmin. The notes making up Gmin scale are G, A, B♭, C, D, E♭, and F. So if I play lines using any E♭mode it will sound "right" when the band is on the Gmin chord. It will also sound "right" anywhere else in the song.

True or dumb?

 

[Phlipper]

Oh ... Mal, Thanks VERY for taking time to make the post on chords. Printed out ... And will go thru it when I get to the corresponding section in the book. I appreciate your help.

Also didn't realize you were that 'experienced'. I don't feel so bad tackling this stuff again at 57 .

 

[Malcolm35]

Thanks for the word "experienced".

 

[MVE]

A quick technical aside - cuz it's been two years since I went thru Ari's book. I quit playing and sold everything. I've forgotten a lot and started from page one this week. Also had a head injury (and now blind in one eye) on Sept 12th. So my brain may not be working.

_______________________
Autumn Leaves. It’s typically played in Gm. If the recording you are playing along with is in fact in Gm, try improvising in another mode like Eb Lydian.
_______________________

Is this statement true?

I am playing Autumn Leaves in Gmin. The notes making up Gmin scale are G, A, B♭, C, D, E♭, and F. So if I play lines using any E♭mode it will sound "right" when the band is on the Gmin chord. It will also sound "right" anywhere else in the song.

True or dumb?

No, not true. The only Eb mode that will sound right would be Lydian.

But yes, that it will likely sound good in over other chords in the song because most of the chords in most songs are in the key (meaning, they are made up of notes of that scale, like CMaj, Dm, Em, FMaj, G7, etc are all made up of notes in the C Major scale.) or they are also often a secondary dominant chord of a note in the key (meaning they are a dominant 5th chord of a note in the scale, like CMaj, Dm’s 5th is A7, Em’s 5th is B7, Fmaj’s 5th is C7, etc..)
But talking about all of this is totally pointless if you don’t first understand chords and if you haven’t learned to actually play it, so go back to what I suggested in my earlier post and start learning your Maj, min, aug, and dim triads in C with the metronome at 60.

There are many TBers here that know far more about all of this than me, maybe one of them will chime in or correct anything I may have stated in error. But, starting with 3 part arpeggios and the Major scale is the first step up the mountain.