Best way to learn theory/application ... old dog, new tricks

[Phlipper]

Triads are the next chapter, starting tomorrow.

 

[dreamadream99]

Triads are the next chapter, starting tomorrow.

Oh Ye, of little memory: heed my previous post.

You cannot learn chords till you know about scales.
You cannot learn scales till you know about key signatures.
You cannot learn key signatures till you know about the order of sharps and flats.

There is an order.
There are prerequisites.

Learn piecemeal by trial and error if you must, but since you are on a timetable, I recommend, instead, an established curriculum.

Last soapbox: I know a guy who learned theory on his own in ten years, but there are still some noticeable and glaring gaps. I learned it all in four semesters at university.

 

[MVE]

Oh Ye, of little memory: heed my previous post.

You cannot learn chords till you know about scales.
You cannot learn scales till you know about key signatures.
You cannot learn key signatures till you know about the order of sharps and flats.

There is an order.
There are prerequisites.

Learn piecemeal by trial and error if you must, but since you are on a timetable, I recommend, instead, an established curriculum.

Last soapbox: I know a guy who learned theory on his own in ten years, but there are still some noticeable and glaring gaps. I learned it all in four semesters at university.

+1000
....and you can’t REALLY learn any of it by reading a book!

You have to learn to play the scales and the chords, on your instrument in time.

You can read a whole book on theory in a few hours but what good is knowing how to say the first 7 letters of the alphabet backwards and forwards if you don’t know where the notes are on your instrument or what they sound like?

 

[Phlipper]

+1000
....and you can’t REALLY learn any of it by reading a book!

You have to learn to play the scales and the chords, on your instrument in time.

You can read a whole book on theory in a few hours but what good is knowing how to say the first 7 letters of the alphabet backwards and forwards if you don’t know where the notes are on your instrument or what they sound like?

Was starting the Triads chapter in Cap's book today but found the Gorenberg book (just got it yesterday) has a ton of exercises for learning the fretboard before he gets to the major scale. So I'm spending my practice time today doing nothing but that. Just playing the interval and note exercises. I've forgotten so much of that in just two years.

 

[MVE]

Was starting the Triads chapter in Cap's book today but found the Gorenberg book (just got it yesterday) has a ton of exercises for learning the fretboard before he gets to the major scale. So I'm spending my practice time today doing nothing but that. Just playing the interval and note exercises. I've forgotten so much of that in just two years.

You don’t need “a ton” of exercises.
You need one.
Play the CMaj scale to the metronome at 60 bpm while saying the names of the notes.
That should take an hour.
Now, play C Maj, G Maj, D Maj, around the circle of 5ths at 60 bpm while saying the name of each note.
It will take a few weeks or more before you can do that In time without making any mistakes.
Like I said, if you’re really interested PM me after you have learned that and I’ll tell you what to work on next.

 

[Phlipper]

I'll take you up on that. Thanks.

 

[Willie5String]

I promised myself I would learn to play jazz on guitar and bass before I died. I'm old as hell so I need to get moving.

My verbose history, because I'm hoping someone here has had a similar experience and can give advice:

I'm 57 years old and have been playing guitar for over 40 years. Self-taught (of course) and was good enough at 14 yo to play lead guitar under-age in bar bands doing top 40, country and classic rock covers. I've been gigging off and on ever since, even playing some larger opening gigs. Started subbing on bass about 10 years ago and fell in love with it. Went thru a couple years of bass exclusively. I learn quickly by ear and used to do a lot of fill-in gigs because I could nail a three set list in a week. I made decent money at it before the crash in '08.

My problem is that I seem 'stuck' no matter what I do. I am a decent guitarist and bass player but I feel like I'll never be able to solo on guitar even close to Joe Bonamassa, or play the complicated and fast jazz licks like Scott Devine on bass. I feel like a one-trick pony. My one trick is pretty good and it works for me. But I want to learn jazz the 'right' way. And I hope to open up the fretboard on both instruments in general.

I've struggled to learn jazz on guitar and bass a few times over the years. Started working thru Jody Fisher's three jazz books but got stuck on the theory. Have studied theory a little online with various teachers. And bought Ariane Cap's theory book a couple of years ago, currently working on it again. I seem to feel things will open up if I can get theory thru to my big gourd head. But I always get frustrated and give up (may be the problem LOL) and wind up back in minor pentatonic wonderland on guitar and back into my usual patterns on bass. Again ... I'm pretty decent on both instruments and have worked a lot filling in with very accomplished players. But I often feel like I'm just a well-practiced mimic. That I don't really understand what I'm playing, no matter how well I can pull it off. One example ... I have studied the circle of fifths/fourths via four online sites and three books. And I still just do not get the practical application ... "so I know what key I'm in by the number of flats? Why don't I just listen to the song?" . I even worked with a co-worker who is a graduate of North Texas jazz program for a couple months. Did stuff like harmonizing the major scale on paper. But the stuff just does not stick for long and parts seem to never make sense. I may be getting stupid as I get older, but I do have degrees in Industrial Engineering and Computer Science. I thought I could eventually figure this stuff out well enough that it stuck and helped me expand beyond my usual techniques and note choices.

So I was curious if anyone else who is older has struggled similarly, and how you overcome it? Could be the issue is just lack of motivation to push thru? Too easily frustrated?

Is it possible I need a different kind of instruction? Has anyone in a similar position wound up finally clicking with an in-person teacher?

Is it possible I just waited way too late to start and I should stick with what I know and just 'learn' jazz purely by learning the songs, like I've always done, and allow the techniques/progressions to eventually become part of my repertoire?

If you have been in a similar position, how did you push past it? Or did you stick to what you knew to assimilate jazz?

I’m in a very similar situation. Play guitar as a 2nd instrument and bass. Also decided I wanted to learn to play jazz.

I had to make a decision, do I want to continue to be a mediocre bass and mediocre guitar player that spends his time pissing around “jamming”, or do I want fluency on a chosen instrument?

Couple of things helped me, but by help I mean, keep me moving in a positive direction:

1-wrote down and posted what I want to accomplish
2-started learning to read music
3- bought Ireal so I can play along with songs I want to learn
4-spent a month playing bass exclusively on 1 string using “jazz in 12 keys” from Ireal
5-split practice up to 2 short sessions, morning and evening
6-bought a copy of what I think is the most helpful book on jazz bass “The Jazz Bassline Book” by Mike Downes

Am I improving, well, since Covid, I now know all the notes and their placement on the neck and can actually struggle through Jazz concepts from my Jazz bass lines book. I can also play a handful of Jazz standards, a few without reading the chords while I play.

I’m playing maybe 45-60 minutes a day and at 63, I ain’t no kid.

Good luck, keep rocking!

 

[Phlipper]

While I have the heavy hitters checking in ... As I mentioned, got Gorenberg's Music Theory for Bass Players yesterday to supplement the Cap text. Gorenbergs text shows the following Gmaj patterns at the end of his Maj scale chapter, and I'm like WTH? Doesn't look like the Maj scale I know. Have I missed something? There was no explanation of why they are presented as a major scale. Just "Five patterns of the major scale".

 

[Willie5String]

Absolutely a Gmaj scale, starting on the A in the 1st example. If it’s a single sharp (F#), it’s a Gmaj scale, just starting on a different note.

It’s probably warming you up for this: 3,5,7,9 chord substitution principle.

 

[Phlipper]

I'm seriously starting to think I'm just too dumb to get this stuff.

Two years ago before I quit playing I had spent six months on theory working thru the Cap text. In my little pea brain I know how to play a major scale anywhere on the neck and can recognise the scale in songs. My pea brain knows the intervals of the major scale. I know the WWHWWWH pattern.

Then I come to this page and see 'major scales' that violate everything I thought I knew. They don't sound like a major scale to me ... They dont follow the pattern I learned ... Can't find these scales in any book ... Etc. But it makes sense to everyone else. Like I missed something important along the way.

I am autistic (for real) so there's that.

 

[MVE]

Absolutely a Gmaj scale, starting on the A in the 1st example. If it’s a single sharp (F#), it’s a Gmaj scale, just starting on a different note.

It’s probably warming you up for this: 3,5,7,9 chord substitution principle.

They are different modes:

A Dorian
B Phrygian
D Mixolydian

I wouldn’t recommend that at this time.

 

[Phlipper]

It's like Gorenberg should start with "I realize these patterns don't match what I just taught you but they still are a major scale, and here's why ... "

But he just said "Here ya go champ! Take a xanax and roll with it!"

 

[Willie5String]

Maybe what you are missing is circle of 5ths and circle of 4ths?

They (circle of 5ths and 4ths) explain how sharps and flats are additive, as an example C has no sharps or flats...a 5th of C is G, it has 1 sharp, which is the 7th of that chord. A 5th of G is D, it has 2 sharps, F# and C#, a 5th of D is A, it has 3 sharps F#, C# and G#, etc.

Don’t be hard on yourself, problem with music is, you don’t know what you don’t know.

 

[Phlipper]

They are different modes:

A Dorian
B Phrygian
D Mixolydian

I wouldn’t recommend that at this time.

Holy crap ... That's right. Lmao. I'm dumber'n a bag of hammers. Lol.

Wish he'd said that. My brain would be intact.

Thanks! I put the xanax down.

 

[Phlipper]

I do kinda remember using the Cof5ths to know the key of a song. And so now it makes more sense. The Cof5ths/4ths is one of the things that drained outa my big gourd head over the last two years.

 

[Willie5String]

By the way, I don’t remember where I read it, maybe here.

Someone (one of the Jazz Greats) said Stan Getz knew very little theory, but what he did know was arpeggios inside and out and chromatic. If you look him up on the net, he had 6 months of lessons.

 

[Phlipper]

You guys have been very generous, gracious, and patient and I greatly appreciate it. I've printed off almost all the stuff you guys have posted and am referencing it when I come to the corresponding chapter in the book. I'm trying to be very methodical and not bounce around as I go back thru it. Have done ...

CH 1 the basics, notes
CH 2 the fretboard
CH 3 intervals
CH 4 major scale

Now I'm working methodically thru the same material in Gorenberg. Reading, taking notes, taking the written tests, playing thru every exercise with a metronome several times. Will start on CH 5 triads next week and the corresponding in Gorenberg. It should stick this time cuz I don't see having to quit playing and sell all my stuff again.

 

[Phlipper]

By the way, I don’t remember where I read it, maybe here.

Someone (one of the Jazz Greats) said Stan Getz knew very little theory, but what he did know was arpeggios inside and out and chromatic. If you look him up on the net, he had 6 months of lessons.

When I first got into jazz (on guitar) I kinda went thru an online course and skipped theory. I could play thru some of the standards pretty well, learning by ear/tab. But when it came to soloing over my backing tracks I kept coming back to 40 years of minor pentatonic hell and could never wrap my brain around the amazing variation of note choices the local jazz guys played. I even copied horn melodies from Coltrane and others (a tip from Dicky Betts). But I never got fluent enough to pull it off well when improvising.

That's why I wanted to learn theory when I switched to bass full time. Cuz its kinda the same thing ... Improvising leads over complex (to me) chord changes. I got sick of channeling Ted Nugent when playing over All The Things You Are. I've been told several times that learning theory would open up my playing on both instruments. I could release myself from minor pentatonic hell.

And I had always promised myself I would learn music theory before I died. Wanted to better understand what I've been doing all these years.

 

[Willie5String]

I really like The Jazz Bass line book by Mike Downes. He basically shows how to develop jazz bass line elements while staying on 1 song, giving you a massive pallete of things, like motifs, retrograde inversions, etc. I particularly liked the section where he shows the how 5 different players from 5 eras would play a bass line to the the same song.

While he does not cover theory per se, his approach shows how a jazz player constructs bass lines over a jazz progression. Since I have a fair handle on basic theory, but want to focus on learning to read music, there’s lots here for me

 

[Phlipper]

Marked that book down for later. Thnx.