Big Amps will come back one day!!!

[baxter_x]

If the heavy legacy amps were so darn great, so much better than modern offerings, how come they went out of production years or decades ago?

95% of the market has spoken loudly and with their wallets. For the other 5% there is a thriving used market plus a service industry that’s still stuck in the 1960’s and 70’s. Win-win.

Please, don't break myths, especially here on TB

 

[Rooster009]

This weekends rig. Gonna be a blast.

 

[baxter_x]

This weekends rig. Gonna be a blast.View attachment 5444181

I have owned the MP600. I wanted to love it but couldn't find a tone I wanted out of it. However the M9 and the Titan V12 were great. Especially the Titan. What an amp!

 

[Rooster009]

I have owned the MP600. I wanted to love it but couldn't find a tone I wanted out of it. However the M9 and the Titan V12 were great. Especially the Titan. What an amp!

I love this thing. Covers everything I need and some that I don’t.

 

[groovepump]

If the heavy legacy amps were so darn great, so much better than modern offerings, how come they went out of production years or decades ago?

95% of the market has spoken loudly and with their wallets. For the other 5% there is a thriving used market plus a service industry that’s still stuck in the 1960’s and 70’s. Win-win.

Absolutely the bare fact of the matter. Close the thread !!!

 

[dave_p]

Probably not. A lot of them are big, beamy, comb filtering messes. Can't deny they move air and are unique to stand in front of, but really aren't necessary or particularly desirable for your average schlub hanging out here and doing bar gigs.

I'm in a moderately busy bar cover band, so I play all the rooms every other band is playing in my area and I will tell you, nobody has the luxury or stage room to squeeze an SVT up there. If you are lucky enough to play a big venue with a stage, you will likely have good sound reinforcement and the audience can't hear the SVT (or behemoth of choice).

Honestly, I love my 3.5lb head and 36lb cabinet.

 

[Aussie Player]

If the heavy legacy amps were so darn great, so much better than modern offerings, how come they went out of production years or decades ago?

95% of the market has spoken loudly and with their wallets. For the other 5% there is a thriving used market plus a service industry that’s still stuck in the 1960’s and 70’s. Win-win.

1. Big amps were intrroduced during the baby boomer generation which was the largest population segment in world history.
2. As many retired from playing to raise families or just get on with life, that buying segment reduced, hence less sales.
3. Big amps continued the pro image they generated well into the 80's to the point of fake facade images on stage to project the continuance but with the realization that PA's were growing in size and capability and single amps would suffice which reduced demands further.
4. A generation after the commencement of big amps, more boomers continued to move away from music and trends in lesser virtuosity and music simplicity also leaned towards smaller stage equipment and images. Think punk/grunge revisited. No image was the image. Sound demands imitated 70's punk to some degree.
5. Amp manufactureres by now had competition from many smaller and growing options which further reduced their revenue.
6. Manufacturers redesigned amplification with now a bi- focus in that they had to attract musicians interests and still appear new and competitive. This is why old brand names were "purchased" even if the products were tapered off or eliminated from the market. Product names have legacy and status with both older familiar players and newer purchasers. Think, Sunn, Eden, Peavey, Acoustic etc.
7. Crunch time - today. The fact is there are 25-50 year old amps still being used, still admired, still reliable, still coped and aped in design and sound, still used by global names, still sought by collectors and working musicians, even on TB. The coup de gras is that today, we have both vintage big heavy tube amps and tiny pocket carry modern amps marketed to be their equal.

The experienced among us have both, use both but with one exception that gets in a designer's craw (not directed at you) and that is the fact that bass players come out of the woodwork to hear, listen to and speak with bass players using big old heavy amps.

Because we have and use both old and new, many commenting here, have stated those same bass players within the audiences do not have the same reverence nor inquisitive interest in newer amps by comparison.

When older musicans speak from their personal experiences it is more difficult to counter argue as sound is our passion, our business, our money and our life.

I will use big old heavy amps as long as I play, but I will also slip in the odd class D, where the venue is lesser in profile or more difficult for load in/out. There is room for both.

What is important is to keep people like you motivated by accepting dinosaurs and allowing a little history to be retained as amp design and manufacturing is not exactly generating a queue at vocational guidance classes in high schools. Neither is bass playing, but I think we'll both get by ok.

Bass is passion, I know I cannot stand a day not playing, or at least practicing.

 

[agedhorse]

That’s all well and good, but I designed my share of heavy amps and cabinets in the day and whole still respected for what they are/were, they are selling used for less than they cost to build originally.

 

[byacey]

Plenty of people still schlepping the heavy iron. If that's what you like, rock it. Personally I'm happy to do more with less. There'll always be people hanging on to nostalgia in spite of objective technical improvements, and that's fine. There'll definitely continue to be big acts using dummy amps on stage; I wouldn't doubt if that comes back into vogue for rock acts (if it ever went out?).

It's not just nostalgia. In my opinion, a conventional 60hz power transformer, rectifier and filters is more reliable long term, vs. a switch mode power supply.

 

[agedhorse]

It's not just nostalgia. In my opinion, a conventional 60hz power transformer, rectifier and filters is more reliable long term, vs. a switch mode power supply.

Yes and no. I have SMPS that have been absolutely trouble-free (in several dozen) QSC PLX series amps yet I have seen line frequency power supplies fail for a variety of reasons. It's possible to design very reliable and precise protection circuits into an SMPS that are impractical on conventional supplies. ICEPower supplies are another SMPS that includes very sophisticated protection mechanisms and have extremely low failure rates.

That said, there are plenty of examples of poor SMPS designs as well.

 

[Jim C]

Do the tiny power amps like the Jay Ganz or the Baby Sumo have the same sonic heft and note weight as say, a Crest CA series or a modern pro Class D amp?

Curious to take this "big amps" concept a little further up the road and genuinely curious about these very small inexpensive 500 - 1,000 watt micro power amps vs. a normal 2 rack space.
Understood that UL and other safety certifications may not be available, as well as a limit to how powerful something that small can be.

 

[agedhorse]

Depends on the quality of execution.

About 12 years ago, I worked on a product for a major pro/commercial audio company that used the ICEPower modules available at the time, they outperformed their existing class AB and BASH based power amps in every way. Things have only gotten better, but it does very much depend on the design and execution.

 

[amper]

The experienced among us have both, use both but with one exception that gets in a designer's craw (not directed at you) and that is the fact that bass players come out of the woodwork to hear, listen to and speak with bass players using big old heavy amps.

Because we have and use both old and new, many commenting here, have stated those same bass players within the audiences do not have the same reverence nor inquisitive interest in newer amps by comparison.

When older musicans speak from their personal experiences it is more difficult to counter argue as sound is our passion, our business, our money and our life.

I will use big old heavy amps as long as I play, but I will also slip in the odd class D, where the venue is lesser in profile or more difficult for load in/out. There is room for both.

I'm 55 years old, going on 56, and I've been playing bass for 30 years, as of this year. I've been a member of TalkBass for over 21 years. I am hardly, as they say, a "spring chicken", though here on TalkBass, it certainly sometimes feels like I am the youngest person in the conversation.

I do not own, and have never owned, an amp with a switched-mode power supply or a Class D output section. My current main bass amp is a early production, brown panel (2002-ish) Mesa/Boogie Walkabout, a 300 W Class AB design with a linear power supply that is among the lightest of its kind, at only 13 lbs for the head, or 55 lbs for the combo.

I acquired my Walkabout Scout 12 combo in 2009, and it replaced my 1995 Trace Elliot V-Type 220 W head and 1248H 4x12+horn cabinet, a combination that weighs, if you can believe Trace Elliot's specifications, 72 kg, or almost 159 lbs. The cabinet alone is 750 x 740 x 350 mm, or 29 1/2 x 29 1/8 x 13 3/4" and 47 kg, over 103 lbs, so large that it is nearly impossible for a single person to lift, though I could actually do so in my 30s, and the head was 25 kg, about 55 lbs, relatively light for a 220 W tube head.

The V-Type rig replaced a 12U rack system that contained an SWR Interstellar Overdrive, Trace Elliot V-Type rackmount preamp, JoeMeek VC1Qcs channel strip, and SWR Power 750 power amp (a lightweight at only 32 lbs!), which was actually preceded by the same V-Type rig, as well. I went back to the V-Type rig mainly because the rack system proved to be too cumbersome and overkill for my needs. I was flush with money at the time and went overboard, though that system sounded fantastic.

I originally acquired my first V-Type in 2002, I think, not long before I joined TalkBass later that same year. I got my second V-Type head shortly thereafter. Prior to that, in the 1990s, I played a Trace Elliot Series 6 AH200 head and Trace Elliot 1153 and 2102 cabs, a combined 70.5 kg, over 155 lbs, but which was easier to move for a single person, since it was three pieces, instead of two.

I've been in live pro audio since the late 1980s, my university years at Carnegie-Mellon University, where I majored in Theatre Technical Production/Sound & Lighting Design, and served as the Lighting Director and as as a PA operator for the student-run Activities Board sound & lighting group, "AB Tech", also known as "Fly By Night Sound & Light". We maintained and operated a professional level mobile PA and lighting rig with a 32 channel TAC Scorpion main console and 36 channels of dimming with a Leprecon LP-1000 series lighting console, covering all campus events and some off-campus events, for acts ranging from local and regional to international, such as when we provided sound and lighting for guitarist Stanley Jordan, at Carnegie Hall Pittsburgh, using our rigs.

I regard any Class AB amp, or almost any rack system, as being a "big amp". This covers pretty much every bass amp that came before Class D amps with switched-mode power supplies became mainstream, which didn't happen until after the 2000s. I don't remember what year the Mesa Subway series was released, but it's not in the 2010 catalogue. Class D amps, of course, were already on the market by then, but weren't yet mainstream.

I don't deny that a lot of bassists have an interest in older amps, in tube amps, in Class AB solid state amps, but the fact is that Class D amps with SMPSs have superceded the older Class AB amps with linear power supplies for the exact same reasons that those amps replaced tube amps for most purposes—because they are lighter, smaller, and cheaper for any given amount of output power.

If you want to schlep around a portly old rig, you are more than welcome to do so, but a Mesa Subway D-800 with two Subway 1x12 cabs, like my friend's rig weighs a grand total of about 71 lbs, less than half of any of my older rigs, takes up less than half the physical volume, and sonically outperforms anything I've owned in the past. It would be even lighter with a Subway D-350 and a Subway 2x12 cab, coming in at only 3 lbs for the head and 52 lbs for the cab, the same weight as my 2002 Walkabout Scout 12 combo, while being only slightly larger.

Even just comparing the Walkabout head to the WD-800, the Walkabout's modern equivalent, you go from 300 W and 13 lbs to 800 W and 7 lbs, plus significantly improved features.

If you own an older heavier rig, and you like the way it sounds, and you have the physical capability of transporting it easily, there's no real reason to replace that rig, unless of course you want to make your life easier without losing anything in terms of audio quality. But, for many of us, there's no romance to older, heavier gear, no matter how much nostalgia you may have attached to it.

 

[fdeck]

Do the tiny power amps like the Jay Ganz or the Baby Sumo have the same sonic heft and note weight as say, a Crest CA series or a modern pro Class D amp?

Curious to take this "big amps" concept a little further up the road and genuinely curious about these very small inexpensive 500 - 1,000 watt micro power amps vs. a normal 2 rack space.
Understood that UL and other safety certifications may not be available, as well as a limit to how powerful something that small can be.

I haven't tried either of those amps specifically, but have played with some inexpensive chip amp boards. One of them is my "home stereo" at the moment. I'm perfectly satisfied. I'm more concerned about the quality of the Bluetooth receiver than of the fidelity of the power amp.

Most of what I've seen in pics is suggestive that the boards simply use the reference designs supplied by the component manufacturers, with minimal changes in layout. And the datasheets suggest that the chips are legit within their ratings. But, the power rating given in the title of the datasheet is not the power that you get when everything is taken into account, including power supply capability. Matching the power amp to the correct power supply is not trivial. Also, operating these amps at clipping isn't guaranteed to be taken kindly, and I know that the designers of reputable pro-audio and musical instrument amplifiers put a lot of thought into how overload signals are handled.

If it weren't for the fact that the boards I'm using are only rated for a few Watts, and yet are plenty powerful for my needs, the whole business would give me the heebie jeebies.

 

[agedhorse]

I'm 55 years old, going on 56, and I've been playing bass for 30 years, as of this year. I've been a member of TalkBass for over 21 years. I am hardly, as they say, a "spring chicken", though here on TalkBass, it certainly sometimes feels like I am the youngest person in the conversation.

I do not own, and have never owned, an amp with a switched-mode power supply or a Class D output section. My current main bass amp is a early production, brown panel (2002-ish) Mesa/Boogie Walkabout, a 300 W Class AB design with a linear power supply that is among the lightest of its kind, at only 13 lbs for the head, or 55 lbs for the combo.

I acquired my Walkabout Scout 12 combo in 2009, and it replaced my 1995 Trace Elliot V-Type 220 W head and 1248H 4x12+horn cabinet, a combination that weighs, if you can believe Trace Elliot's specifications, 72 kg, or almost 159 lbs. The cabinet alone is 750 x 740 x 350 mm, or 29 1/2 x 29 1/8 x 13 3/4" and 47 kg, over 103 lbs, so large that it is nearly impossible for a single person to lift, though I could actually do so in my 30s, and the head was 25 kg, about 55 lbs.

The V-Type rig replaced a 12U rack system that contained an SWR Interstellar Overdrive, Trace Elliot V-Type rackmount preamp, JoeMeek VC1Qcs channel strip, and SWR Power 750 power amp (a lightweight at only 32 lbs!), which was actually preceded by the same V-Type rig, as well. I went back to the V-Type rig mainly because the rack system proved to be too cumbersome and overkill for my needs. I was flush with money at the time and went overboard, though that system sounded fantastic.

I originally acquired my first V-Type in 2002, I think, not long before I joined TalkBass later that same year. I got my second V-Type head shortly thereafter. Prior to that, in the 1990s, I played a Trace Elliot Series 6 AH200 head and Trace Elliot 1153 and 2102 cabs, a combined 14+29.5+27 70.5 kg, over 155 lbs, but which was easier to move for a single person, since it was three pieces, instead of two.

I've been in live pro audio since the late 1980s, my university years at Carnegie-Mellon University, where I majored in Theatre Technical Production/Sound & Lighting Design, and served as the Lighting Director and as as a PA operator for the student-run Activities Board sound & lighting group, "AB Tech", also known as "Fly By Night Sound & Light". We maintained and operated a professional level mobile PA and lighting rig with a 32 channel TAC Scorpion main console and 36 channels of dimming with a Leprecon LP-1000 series lighting console, covering all campus events and some off-campus events, for acts ranging from local and regional to international, such as when we provided sound and lighting for guitarist Stanley Jordan, at Carnegie Hall Pittsburgh, using our rigs.

I regard any Class AB amp, or almost any rack system, as being a "big amp". This covers pretty much every bass amp that came before Class D amps with switched-mode power supplies became mainstream, which didn't happen until after the 2000s. I don't remember what year the Mesa Subway series was released, but it's not in the 2010 catalogue. Class D amps, of course, were already on the market by then, but weren't yet mainstream.

I don't deny that a lot of bassists have an interest in older amps, in tube amps, in Class AB solid state amps, but the fact is that Class D amps with SMPSs have superceded the older Class AB amps with linear power supplies for the exact same reasons that those amps replaced tube amps for most purposes—because they are lighter, smaller, and cheaper for any given amount of output power.

If you want to schlep around a portly old rig, you are more than welcome to do so, but a Mesa Subway D-800 with two Subway 1x12 cabs, like my friend's rig weighs a grand total of about 71 lbs, less than half of any of my older rigs, takes up less than half the physical volume, and sonically outperforms anything I've owned in the past. It would be even lighter with a Subway D-350 and a Subway 2x12 cab, coming in at only 3 lbs for the head and 52 lbs for the cab, the same weight as my 2002 Walkabout Scout 12 combo, while being only slightly larger.

Even just comparing the Walkabout head to the WD-800, the Walkabout's modern equivalent, you go from 300 W and 13 lbs to 800 W and 7 lbs, plus significantly improved features.

If you own an older heavier rig, and you like the way it sounds, and you have the physical capability of transporting it easily, there's no real reason to replace that rig, unless of course you want to make your life easier without losing anything in terms of audio quality. But, for many of us, there's no romance to older, heavier gear, no matter how much nostalgia you may have attached to it.

My first SMPS based amp was the NeoPak which was designed in 2005 and released very early 2006. My first class D amp (in the bass market, not pro audio) was the Shuttle 3.0 which was designed and released in 2007. These amps directly replaced existing heavy class AB models, and the follow-up class D models also directly replaced existing class AB models. The Subway D-800 was competed in 2014 and released in 2015.

It really wasn't about the cost (SMPS/class D were more expensive not cheaper), it was about more power, with smaller size, lower weight and BETTER performance than the amps that they replaced. They are still not really much less expensive to design/build than class AB, but as power increases SMPS and class D cost benefits increase.

New technology, when well designed/executed, is really hard to beat. Unfortunately, there were some significant examples of shortfalls in performance and reliability early on... some challenged models lasting far longer than necessary IMO. Evolution continues as long as there are customers, likewise class AB products will continue to be available as long as there are customers. Players vote with their wallets, like it or not.

 

[Clark Westfield]

I just switched from an 810 to a 212 after falling down the steps trying to save the cabinet from crashing.


Sold that dinosaur a week later, and never looking back.

 

[agedhorse]

I just switched from an 810 to a 212 after falling down the steps trying to save the cabinet from crashing.

Years ago I saw a stagehand try to save a dimmer rack from a ramp mishap... equipment can be replaced but it his case I think it was a career ending move.

Just recently a rigger friend of mine broke the golden rule, a lift that wasn't completely vertical resulted in a heavy large format video projector swinging just enough to push him off balance and the ladder he was standing on. The result was a back injury and an unscheduled 6 months off.

This stuff happens, the heavier it is the worse the results.

 

[baxter_x]

I just switched from an 810 to a 212 after falling down the steps trying to save the cabinet from crashing.


Sold that dinosaur a week later, and never looking back.

And did you save the cab in the end?

 

[Clark Westfield]

And did you save the cab in the end?

It fell off the last step and crashed hard onto the ground.

My back was tweaked and arms sore right before the gig.

After the gig, loading the cab into the back of my Suv, finalized the end of 810’s for me

 

[baxter_x]

It fell off the last step and crashed hard onto the ground.

My back was tweaked and arms sore right before the gig.

After the gig, loading the cab into the back of my Suv, finalized the end of 810’s for me

Insane!
I guess the presence of the 212 is not the same as the 810?