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Big E Speakers Part 4 - Quadraphenia
- Thread starter kesslari
- Start date
I haven't heard that 18 Sound woofer but the specs look very impressive and a bass cab is all about viseral impact (what I miss so much with IEM's). Is four of the 3" Faitals still enough to hang with this beast?
Hey all--
I'm unloading some cabs now so I can get on the bandwagon. Is there any new news about the flex 2x8? The MA 12 sure is enticing. How do the specs and character on these bad boys compare? I think I'll be grabbing one or the other when they're available.
I'm unloading some cabs now so I can get on the bandwagon. Is there any new news about the flex 2x8? The MA 12 sure is enticing. How do the specs and character on these bad boys compare? I think I'll be grabbing one or the other when they're available.
- May 15, 2007
- 344
- 465
- Disclosures
- Owner RAD Repairs and RAD Engineering ,guitar, bass, and amp repair and limited custom instrument and amp building.
I stopped by Mike's yesterday and got to hear the MA 12. With Mike's Roscoe and Puma this cabinet is absolutely devastating. With both the filters engaged it is very smooth and even, but with the filters off is much more mid forward. It sounds to me more like the voicing of a really good bass cab, like a Berg or a Baer, but with more low and high extension. The usual MAS voicing seems more smooth and even, more like a high dollar high fi speaker, a beautiful sound, but the 12 is a take no prisoners, aggressive electric bass cab. The 4 3's add a growl to the sound that made the hair stand up on the back of my neck, not distortion, just emphasized harmonics. We tried it with the 3012lf and then switched to the 18sound 12. The 18sound had very slightly more output at the limit, but seemed a little more articulate right to the point of fart out. The 3012 seems to get a little weird before that. At the high volume limit, the MA 12 is moving so much air, I think that it could cause internal organ damage. I was sitting next to it and it was actually moving my pants legs. This cab is 8 ohms, so to get that ridiculous sound pressure we were feeding it less than 500 watts. We tried it with the Puma, a Monique bird cage and a Sonic Farm DI as a preamp.[that Sonic Farm has one of the best sounds I've ever heard]. The puma as usual sounded wonderful, as usual, the Monique had it's tube goodness, but just for fun we turned up the Monique's gain all the way, pulled out the gain boost, and turned up the Roscoe all the way. The resulting distortion was wonderful, not harsh, just grindy and full. Mike had a 6x6 we set next to the 12 to have something to compare it to. The 12 seemed to be at least as loud as the 6x6', but more aggressive. The 6x6 had a more refined sound and the 12 was more traditional bass amp with the BigE magic, the crazy dispersion, and the low end extension that sounds tight and clean and doesn't boom like car with 26" wheels. The 6x6, I think, would have more volume than any 4x10, 2x12, or super 15 out there and the 12 is at least that loud. The portability is very nice, not much better than; tilt it back and roll, like drag along luggage. If you have lift it, it is relatively light, about 47 lbs.,[seems lighter]. It has handles on the sides and it's narrower than deep so you can move it through a door without removing your knuckles. It is only slightly bigger than a 109. Mike has the exact dimensions. This thing could be the ultimately practical electric bass cab, especially at this price.
Thanks radbass! This one sounds like a whole lot of fun. Mike should sell quite a few of these, I would think!
MA112 anybody?
From Mike's post on the Big E forum:
"...I have to mention this since it they go about the same volume---- the Bergantino CN212 is about the exact same size and weight. (just rotated 90 degrees). The Barefaced Big Twin is an inch bigger and a pound heavier. The 112 goes lower than either and to my taste sounds better."
Mike-
Given that many of us have experience with the cabs you mentioned re: the MA 112, can you address "better" in more objective terms so we can get a mental image? So far it seems there are some great possibilities with this one!
- May 15, 2007
- 344
- 465
- Disclosures
- Owner RAD Repairs and RAD Engineering ,guitar, bass, and amp repair and limited custom instrument and amp building.
As usual for a MAS or MA cab it sounds close to the same in front of it, next to it, or behind it.
- May 15, 2007
- 344
- 465
- Disclosures
- Owner RAD Repairs and RAD Engineering ,guitar, bass, and amp repair and limited custom instrument and amp building.
We tested it vertically. I believe it's designed to be used that way. Very small footprint. Mike is building a 210 flex, I'm hoping to be able to compare them next week.
That's why I'm using four. I actually hear the 12 give up earlier. They have an fs of 110 hz and go virtually flat to 14khz. They're cheap , light and very effective.
The 28 is on hold. We've found that the 6" based cabs and the 10" based Flex cabs cover two very different uses and are really happy with what they do. The 8's would be an overlap in these areas. We've found that moving to the 12's and 15's in the vertical alignment (Steve and Tom have worked VERY hard to make the newest versions of the waveguides effective in either horizontal or vertical alignments) cover a very different function.
With the 5" and 6" based cabs there were no real anticipatory goalposts. We just figured that we'd try for the best fidelity, dispersion and impact. I then realized that there were many designers out there that understood better than me the specific function of a cab as a bass guitar cab first--then fidelity second. They might have not been as hifi as mine but for some practical functions for working electric bassists they were more effective. Since I still had trouble understanding those goalposts (for me--the super hifi stuff is what I want--I know how to manipulate through eq to get the function) we came up with the Flex cabs. You can use the switches to get pretty much anything you want.
The next step in evolution was that I'm starting to understand the important parts of the function and can remove parts of the equation that are less necessary so as to simplify and make things more cost effective. And just maybe exceed the others (my other cabs) in terms of function in several key areas.
Actually better than my other cabs in many ways. With the mid/highs firing right at you you can be right on top of it and hear yourself really well. I was worried that while this may be a plus that there would be a compromise in what was getting to the audience and the rest of the bandstand. Turns out to be a non-issue. With the cross-firing and integration of front and rear waves it really seems to take the full spectrum and disperse it all over tha damn place.
I think that this might be more safely addressed in a private message!
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Wow---yeah--forgot about these.
Ok --you know you must be doing something right when a top manufacturer sends you their new prototypes with no mention from you. We've been buying boatloads (well maybe canoe loads) of the Faital 5's for the 45's and Leland's GC25's. One of the other top Italian manufacturers 18Sound must have found out somehow and sent us their new 5.5's to try.
Everyone I talk to seems to think that the 5" based cabs sound the best. When I was at Tom Bowlus' (as he says in the Flex review) he was enamored with the sound of the 85. So am I.
Problem is that for electric (especially 5 string) due to the parameters of the Faital 5fe120, you couldn't push it hard enough.(BTW--the specs of the sd on the USSpeaker website are wrong--it's only .008m 2) So, ultimately it became impractical as an electric bass speaker. It works great for double bass and is my top selling speaker.
Enter the 18Sound 5W430. FS is 13hz lower. Excursion is 1mm bigger. SD is 20% bigger. What this means is that it can move 25% more air and go a lot lower. Not as low as my other cabs but definitely workable for electric. A 45 can now compete with a Kappalite 3012lf based cab for electric.
The good new is that the midrange is just as good as the Faital. I had fellow TB'er Eric Hochberg over. He has a 45. I was all excited for him to hear the 45 with the 18Sound's. We compared them with DB and he said "gee--it kindof sounds the same as the original 45". Thinking that I would be bummed. Just the opposite. I now knew I had the same quality of mids but had much better dynamic capabilities.
18Sound USA just brought a bunch of these in and will be stocking them for us. I've made cabs with them this week. I made a 25 for myself.
Tom Bowlus is (I think) dying to try a new 85---in the works.
A note to the mods--
Sorry that I'm paranoid. I think that all of the comments I've made today are in direct response to questions asked. I swear that I'm not priming these guys with questions that I wanted asked so that I could answer them. There was even one comment that asked about a direct comparison between my cabs and competitors that I think would have been within the CUP rules to respond to but I declined because I though that it might be uncool. Just sayin'----
- Dec 21, 2007
- 15,233
- 45,125
- Disclosures
- Lark in the Morning Instructional Videos; Audix Microphones
Mike - that wouldn't be because some other speaker designers who have some following here are complaining about your thread? It sure would be a sad thing if people who want to be seen as innovators are afraid of other people's innovations stealing their thunder...
The mods here are a pretty good group, and I would hope they would take the source of complaints into their consideration...
While I'm at it, major kudos to speaker designer/mfgs like Duke LeJeune and Leland Crooks who embrace their innovative brethren. Much respect.
Back on topic - the amount of innovation happening with BigE and MAS is freakin' scary and inspiring. I just dropped more $$ on cabs (Flex210Mod) than I ever have (certified Cheap Bast@rd here), and every time a new model gets described I'm thinkin' "I could make room for one of those too..."
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Sure. In terms of absolute purity the 45 is my best sounding speaker. Period. Problem has been that it doesn't have the dynamic or low end capabilities of the 46. That has been dramatically improved. The 46 still goes 15hz lower. (but the low end limit of the newer 45 is still in line with top reflex designs.)
Enter the speaker design wizard from Eminence Jerry McNutt. He was able to get insane excursion and low end extension from a 6 incher. The 46 goes as loud as two of the 45's. Well, actually---with the new drivers about 2/3 as loud (in terms of the amount of air moved). The low end impact on the 46's is pretty formidable. (though not in the league of the 112)
The beauty of the 5" (or now 5.5") based cab is that one driver is handling almost the entire range. Tweeters are just added to extend the top end. If I was doing double duty as a bass cab and home hifi---the 45 is best. If you're playing with acoustic instruments---45 or 85. The electric bass sounds (or can sound) more like an acoustic electric.In my living room for my own enjoyment---the 45.
I think that Mark A. summed it up. He was over trying an 85 against a 110Flex. To paraphrase--
"if I were playing funk, r&b or fusion--the Flex. If I were playing with Joni Mitchell---the 85"
Thanks Mike ! I'm well past the honeymoon phase and I appreciate what the 46 can do more than ever!
I'm not a pro player, I'm more of an amateur enthusiast. The places I play are usually small to medium at best. The 46 really shines in those setting!
I'm not a pro player, I'm more of an amateur enthusiast. The places I play are usually small to medium at best. The 46 really shines in those setting!
In post #166 (quoting Mike's post on the Big E forum): "I was driving [the MA 112] with about 400 watts. It's pretty efficient at about 98db. 300 watts will drive it fine. This speaker would be rock and roll heaven with 200 watts of tube power..."
Then reading Radbass's post about (among other things) how the 112 is more articulate with the 18sound woofer, I'm wondering if the 18 sound is available in a 4 Ohm version? This cab is big enough (and presumably loud enough) that I'd never use two, and I've been digging my Walkabout enough lately that it would be great to have a cab that the WA could drive to something approaching its potential (WA is 165 or so Watts at 8 Ohms, 300 at 4, and, I think, 450-ish at 2 Ohms) while remaining clean. (For what it's worth, I've been loving the tone I've managed to get lately out of the WA at low volume, but haven't taken it out for high-volume play yet, so I don't know how far up it can retain that tone and response. I have an fDeck hi-pass filter on the way -- hoping that helps w/o reducing the impact of my low end.)
On the other end of the spectrum, I have some amps (including a big ol' GBE 1200) that will put out 800-1000W at 4 Ohms. Would that be overkill for a 4 Ohm version of the cab? Radbass talked about the behavior of various drivers up to fartout or the edge of fartout -- is that achievable with 400 Watts? I guess it depends on how you EQ it. Guess I'm trying to figure out what it would take to drive the cab optimally -- not just to get loud, but to retain the "front" of the note. Maybe that would be a better question.
I'm discovering that I like a very articulate response -- don't know if I've ever come across a cab, head, or instrument that I would describe as too articulate for me (too harsh? yes, but that's not the same thing) and that I really like growly mids and a present, harmonically rich midrange. Might not be the optimal tone/presentation for everything, but it's where I feel most at home, most of the time.
If the 112 is about as loud as a 66, that should put it squarely between the 110 and 210 Flex cabs, right?
I need to take my 6 Ohm 66 out with the Walkabout. If that will get loud enough without getting squishy or hairy, that's probably a good indicator that it would be enough with a 4 Ohm 112 (assuming that's available). I've had the 66 out with a Markbass F500. Didn't max out the head or the cab, but would guess the F500 would give up first...
Then reading Radbass's post about (among other things) how the 112 is more articulate with the 18sound woofer, I'm wondering if the 18 sound is available in a 4 Ohm version? This cab is big enough (and presumably loud enough) that I'd never use two, and I've been digging my Walkabout enough lately that it would be great to have a cab that the WA could drive to something approaching its potential (WA is 165 or so Watts at 8 Ohms, 300 at 4, and, I think, 450-ish at 2 Ohms) while remaining clean. (For what it's worth, I've been loving the tone I've managed to get lately out of the WA at low volume, but haven't taken it out for high-volume play yet, so I don't know how far up it can retain that tone and response. I have an fDeck hi-pass filter on the way -- hoping that helps w/o reducing the impact of my low end.)
On the other end of the spectrum, I have some amps (including a big ol' GBE 1200) that will put out 800-1000W at 4 Ohms. Would that be overkill for a 4 Ohm version of the cab? Radbass talked about the behavior of various drivers up to fartout or the edge of fartout -- is that achievable with 400 Watts? I guess it depends on how you EQ it. Guess I'm trying to figure out what it would take to drive the cab optimally -- not just to get loud, but to retain the "front" of the note. Maybe that would be a better question.
I'm discovering that I like a very articulate response -- don't know if I've ever come across a cab, head, or instrument that I would describe as too articulate for me (too harsh? yes, but that's not the same thing) and that I really like growly mids and a present, harmonically rich midrange. Might not be the optimal tone/presentation for everything, but it's where I feel most at home, most of the time.
If the 112 is about as loud as a 66, that should put it squarely between the 110 and 210 Flex cabs, right?
I need to take my 6 Ohm 66 out with the Walkabout. If that will get loud enough without getting squishy or hairy, that's probably a good indicator that it would be enough with a 4 Ohm 112 (assuming that's available). I've had the 66 out with a Markbass F500. Didn't max out the head or the cab, but would guess the F500 would give up first...
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