Big E Speakers Part 4 - Quadraphenia

[MarkA]

Thanks, Leland.

I've noticed that while my 112 feels and sounds a little different horizontally vs. vertically, the dispersion is wide and even both ways -- only ever played out with it vertical, though.

The 46 sounds good both ways, but I noticed a definite change off axis when setting it vertically - at least close in. I'm guessing the mid/tweet line array prefers being vertical (cab horizontal), which, after all, is the primary way to that cab was designed to be run.

 

[TomB]

Thanks, Leland.

I've noticed that while my 112 feels and sounds a little different horizontally vs. vertically, the dispersion is wide and even both ways -- only ever played out with it vertical, though.

The 46 sounds good both ways, but I noticed a definite change off axis when setting it vertically - at least close in. I'm guessing the mid/tweet line array prefers being vertical (cab horizontal), which, after all, is the primary way to that cab was designed to be run.

That's interesting Mark. When you say "feels and sounds a little different" do you mean on stage or out in the house? Thanks.

 

[MarkA]

That's interesting Mark. When you say "feels and sounds a little different" do you mean on stage or out in the house? Thanks.

Re. the 112, as I mentioned, I've only ever played out with it vertically - no room to put that cab horizontally, and never thought to until I saw photos of @MrBEAR 's horizontal, stacked 112's and chatted with Mike about it. I tried my 112 horizontal on the floor with a wedge underneath when visiting my bro at my folks' place (when I made the comparative recordings of the cabs I posted some months back) and it seemed to lend the cab some more of that immersive, 3D quality that the Flex exhibits so abundantly. That's hardly the same as a gig, though, and I wasn't able to crank the volume much in the house. Mike has suggested that, if the opportunity allows (I think a bigger outdoor stage would be ideal), I try the 112 horizontal and see what I think. The small stages I play make that somewhat impractical, though, and I've been loving it vertical.

EDIT: I haven't heard the 112 horizontal aside from the brief experiment I mentioned, but I have listened to other people play though both the 112 and the 210 Flex and the stage/house sound is remarkably consistent with both.

 

[radbass]

I was at Mike's yesterday and we tried two MAS 109s together. First we tried both horizontal on a stand. Two of these together can get crazy loud and the low end just pounds on you. The pad switch goes from smooth and flat to more traditionally aggressive in the upper mids. Next we stacked them vertically which I really liked. Seemed to make them pound harder and clearer. Tried making a T, very articulate, almost as strong in the low mids as the other two. Next we set both on the floor horizontally. Less clear and articulate and almost too much bottom. I preferred them stacked vertically, but each configuration had its plusses, and there wasn't a bad setup there. If I had two I would try them all to see what works best for you. Probably I would switch them around for different rooms.

 

[MarkA]

I was at Mike's yesterday and we tried two MAS 109s together. First we tried both horizontal on a stand. Two of these together can get crazy loud and the low end just pounds on you. The pad switch goes from smooth and flat to more traditionally aggressive in the upper mids. Next we stacked them vertically which I really liked. Seemed to make them pound harder and clearer. Tried making a T, very articulate, almost as strong in the low mids as the other two. Next we set both on the floor horizontally. Less clear and articulate and almost too much bottom. I preferred them stacked vertically, but each configuration had its plusses, and there wasn't a bad setup there. If I had two I would try them all to see what works best for you. Probably I would switch them around for different rooms.

Hey, radbass, a few questions for you about your stacking experiments:

What kind of stand did you use, and how high off the floor were the cabs?

Were the vertical and "T" stacks both done on the floor? How stable/wobbly is the vertical stack? It'd be a little over four-and-a-half feet tall and about 14" wide... one would have to make sure the feet clear the handle, but that's easy enough.

Finally, how do you like the tonal balance of a single cab, vertical, on the floor? Do you feel the tweeter is pretty easy to hear that way? Throwing an Ampwedge (or even a big, rubber doorstop) underneath would be easy, but I'm curious. 28" tall makes it a tall, small cab, which I like.

I haven't played anything yet that my 112 can't cover - pretty close to an ideal single-cab solution from that standpoint. I'm curious how one of these robust little guys would hang, though I suspect two might be called-for for the rare stupid-loud stuff, for safety's sake (to avoid potentially running the cab to the edge in situations where I've seen a 410 pushed past it).

 

[radbass]

Mike has, I think, an Onstage stand that raises the cabs about 18" and tilts them back. The vertical and T were done on the floor. The vertical stack was suprisingly
stable, you would really need bigger feet or a repositioned handle. The tonal balance is very similar to the MAS 112 with the custom 12 when both are vertical, but it seems like the 10 goes deeper. With the pad engaged it is like playing through a studio monitor. I actually prefer the more aggressive setting. The Ciari tweeter really spreads nicely, you can hear it standing almost to the side of the cab. That is the best sounding tweeter I've heard on a bass cab. One 10 is not as loud as the 12, but I think it would easily keep up with a loud drummer and fill a club. The 10 could hurt people in a bar or small club, with my 12 there could be fatalities. Two 10s are significantly louder than one 12.

 

[MarkA]

Mike has, I think, an Onstage stand that raises the cabs about 18" and tilts them back. The vertical and T were done on the floor. The vertical stack was suprisingly
stable, you would really need bigger feet or a repositioned handle. The tonal balance is very similar to the MAS 112 with the custom 12 when both are vertical, but it seems like the 10 goes deeper. With the pad engaged it is like playing through a studio monitor. I actually prefer the more aggressive setting. The Ciari tweeter really spreads nicely, you can hear it standing almost to the side of the cab. That is the best sounding tweeter I've heard on a bass cab. One 10 is not as loud as the 12, but I think it would easily keep up with a loud drummer and fill a club. The 10 could hurt people in a bar or small club, with my 12 there could be fatalities. Two 10s are significantly louder than one 12.

Thanks, Randy, that's helpful. When you say that the stack has a similar tonal balance to the 112 with the custom driver, do you mean with the mids in the more aggressive setting? Do you know how they would compare to the 18Sound version? I like the voicing of mine well with everything up- maybe that makes me an aggressive mids person.

 

[radbass]

It seems to me the 112 with the custom driver has more character in the upper mids than the 18sound or the Faital, more of what I'm used to hearing in cabs I really like. It actually seems to go a little lower. The rated power is a little lower than either the 18sound or the Faital, but it's about as efficient as the LPT so it seems at max it goes louder. The new 112 is my favorite bass sound ever, but the new MAS 109 is right there. The 109 also has the switch that takes it from a great electric bass sound to a smoother sound that sounds very hifi for music or PA use, also a mellower bass sound.

 

[MarkA]

It seems to me the 112 with the custom driver has more character in the upper mids than the 18sound or the Faital, more of what I'm used to hearing in cabs I really like. It actually seems to go a little lower. The rated power is a little lower than either the 18sound or the Faital, but it's about as efficient as the LPT so it seems at max it goes louder. The new 112 is my favorite bass sound ever, but the new MAS 109 is right there. The 109 also has the switch that takes it from a great electric bass sound to a smoother sound that sounds very hifi for music or PA use, also a mellower bass sound.

I'll have to hear that - the 18Sound 112 is certainly not lacking in midrange character.

 

[radbass]

You should hear that.

 

[MarkA]

So, I finally took the 46 out for a gig (long story short, the few gigs I've played in the last couple of months have either been with the 112, Flex, or supplied backline).

While, even at living room volume, it's apparent that the 46 is a good cab, it really has to be heard on a gig to be appreciated. While it was wide and detailed at home -- no holes, really responsive to EQ -- for my tastes, I wasn't getting the lively-mids-feeling or kick that I like with the 112 and Flex. Set it on top of the house 410 last night (didn't run the 410, just used it as a stand to elevate the cab as Mike has recommended) and played it with my Kustom KXB 500 micro. No bass in the monitors, but some PA support -- still a significant portion of the house sound coming from the cab, though.

Unbelievably clear without being harsh. More clear than the 112 or the Flex, which is hard to believe. Ran it with the tweet on and off, and with the mids boosted and "normal" (mentioned previously -- my "boosted" mids are a bit hotter than normal, per a request I made of Mike when I had the cab built). Tweeter -- good either way, just a different flavor to the top. Mids -- preferred boosted (preferred that to boosting the mids at the amp), but good either way. Nice mids, by the way -- everything comes alive at gig volume, with no obvious transition between components, even with the cab right behind me. Mid presence and quality significantly improved over the 2nd generation 66 I had a couple of years back (that was a two-way cab, this is a three way).

Super-consistent sound moving around the stage (noticed when I walked over to show guitar stuff a couple of times and to communicate with keys and violin). 112 has great dispersion. 46, horizontal and elevated, amazing dispersion.

Sound from the stage didn't interfere with PA. On the contrary, it filled out spots in the house where PA coverage was inconsistent for other instruments. I let two guys I know sit in for a total of three tunes while I wandered the house and listened. Bass clearly audible at all times, without crowding the mix.

Voicing is different than the more traditional voicing of the 112 that I'm used to. More like hearing a big version of your sound D.I.ed through nice headphones, though that's not entirely accurate -- sense of space isn't the same, but the same kind of clarity. I'm sure there are other differences, but that's the analogy that comes to mind.

112 has more kick at bottom. Flex more punch in the chest and both have more grit in the mids, but the 46 was still nicely but not exaggeratedly present in the mids and very articulate in finger style and slap -- easy to steer the band -- clear in palm-muting (Flex a bit chunkier in palm-muting) and chording, and plenty loud with just that micro. Will have to try it with the sub but it'll be more a want than a need for most things.

EQ changes instantly obvious. Hand placement had a huge effect -- found myself playing with it a lot.

Cab's a different voicing and feel than I'm used to, but performed admirably on its first real outing.

And, yeah, I can see why some people double these for PA duty -- everything is there and everything is clear. I think it would be a great cab for upright, cello with pickup, stuff like that, as well.

 

[mntngrown]

Yes the 46 is my go to fave. No switches on mine.

 

[MarkA]

Yes the 46 is my go to fave. No switches on mine.

Yeah... I always add stuff when I order at restaurants, too.

 

[mntngrown]

Because you are the designated gigging tester of these creations.

 

[MarkA]

Because you are the designated gigging tester of these creations.

That's flattering, but not true -- I try to listen critically to stuff, and I happen to be in a phase where I'm trying a lot of it, chasing a certain, less-than-perfectly defined feeling with my rig. (I did something similar with my cello setup years ago - now I just play it.) I am glad if my ramblings along the way are helpful and/or interesting to whoever happens to read them, but there are guys with these cabs who are much more pro and gigging them a lot more than I.

I will say this about the cabs -- they really are unlike anything else I've played. That's not to say that a given cab in the line will automatically be to everyone's taste, but I've never played another cab with the depth, clarity, or articulation of the Flex or 112... the differences are qualitative, not just quantitative. There's stuff out there that I haven't played, and I'm sure I'd dig some of it, but I have a hard time seeing a conventional cab doing as well for me.

Indeed, if Mike only made the 112, I might've stopped there. It is still my go-to/default.

 

[Razman]

Thanks for all of your practical evaluations and thoughts, Mark. I enjoy reading them and look forwar to my own experience in the future.

The only question now is, to Flex, or to VOG? (I sure wish i could help relieve mtngrown of his cab, why it hasn't sold is beyond me.)

Eric

 

[5StringPocket]

So, I finally took the 46 out for a gig (long story short, the few gigs I've played in the last couple of months have either been with the 112, Flex, or supplied backline).

While, even at living room volume, it's apparent that the 46 is a good cab, it really has to be heard on a gig to be appreciated. While it was wide and detailed at home -- no holes, really responsive to EQ -- for my tastes, I wasn't getting the lively-mids-feeling or kick that I like with the 112 and Flex. Set it on top of the house 410 last night (didn't run the 410, just used it as a stand to elevate the cab as Mike has recommended) and played it with my Kustom KXB 500 micro. No bass in the monitors, but some PA support -- still a significant portion of the house sound coming from the cab, though.

Unbelievably clear without being harsh. More clear than the 112 or the Flex, which is hard to believe. Ran it with the tweet on and off, and with the mids boosted and "normal" (mentioned previously -- my "boosted" mids are a bit hotter than normal, per a request I made of Mike when I had the cab built). Tweeter -- good either way, just a different flavor to the top. Mids -- preferred boosted (preferred that to boosting the mids at the amp), but good either way. Nice mids, by the way -- everything comes alive at gig volume, with no obvious transition between components, even with the cab right behind me. Mid presence and quality significantly improved over the 2nd generation 66 I had a couple of years back (that was a two-way cab, this is a three way).

Super-consistent sound moving around the stage (noticed when I walked over to show guitar stuff a couple of times and to communicate with keys and violin). 112 has great dispersion. 46, horizontal and elevated, amazing dispersion.

Sound from the stage didn't interfere with PA. On the contrary, it filled out spots in the house where PA coverage was inconsistent for other instruments. I let two guys I know sit in for a total of three tunes while I wandered the house and listened. Bass clearly audible at all times, without crowding the mix.

Voicing is different than the more traditional voicing of the 112 that I'm used to. More like hearing a big version of your sound D.I.ed through nice headphones, though that's not entirely accurate -- sense of space isn't the same, but the same kind of clarity. I'm sure there are other differences, but that's the analogy that comes to mind.

112 has more kick at bottom. Flex more punch in the chest and both have more grit in the mids, but the 46 was still nicely but not exaggeratedly present in the mids and very articulate in finger style and slap -- easy to steer the band -- clear in palm-muting (Flex a bit chunkier in palm-muting) and chording, and plenty loud with just that micro. Will have to try it with the sub but it'll be more a want than a need for most things.

EQ changes instantly obvious. Hand placement had a huge effect -- found myself playing with it a lot.

Cab's a different voicing and feel than I'm used to, but performed admirably on its first real outing.

And, yeah, I can see why some people double these for PA duty -- everything is there and everything is clear. I think it would be a great cab for upright, cello with pickup, stuff like that, as well.

Thanks for posting this excellent narrative. Your description of the 46 is the way my 3rd generation MAS66 with the Ciare tweeter sounds to me; natural sounding and even with great clarity and dispersion but not the traditional voicing you expect from a bass cab. For this reason, I practice with my Faital 15/5 ported 2-way cab and use my two MAS66 for PA duty. Still on my list when funds become available are a pair of MAS110 subs to go under the 66 cabs to beef up that 40-300 Hz region for more low/low-mid muscle and kick. Tom Bowlus and Mike both recommend the 66/10 pairing - looking forward to trying that out.

 

[Ewo]

Thanks, MarkA and others, for your commentary. Always interesting and helpful.

I recently acquired a 46/110 sub rig to add to my arsenal and been getting to know it at home. Wish I could take it to my gig this weekend, but my stage footprint has to be small--so the MAS112 is the choice.

Ditto to your comment that the MAS112 (which has been doing a fantastic job with my loud bar band gig) feels more like a traditional cab--albeit with Barry Bonds/Lance Armstrong enhancements. But I'm getting to dig the "muscular hi-fi" character of the 46/110, too. Can't really crank it in my music room, because all the objects start to vibrate! I'm hoping we'll be working another venue in the near future, so I can give it a spin on a gig. That'll be the opportunity to open dis sucka up...

 

[MarkA]

Opening the cab up is the thing. Doesn't have to be very loud, but living room space/volumes won't do it justice.

 

[coyoteboy]

Side thought: this aspect of the BigE design favors a modular approach no?