Big E Speakers Part 4 - Quadraphenia

[Gab124]

Emphases above are mine.

My understanding of the various MAS 112 cabs is that they go 18Sound-->custom Eminence-->Faital in order of "leanest" to "biggest bottom". I don't think that means that the Faital necessarily extends lower than the Eminence (though I think they both go a bit lower than the 18 Sound). FWIW, I own the 18Sound 112. I've played it out several times and have played it next to the Eminence 112 (though only at Mike's place). I haven't played the Faital 112, unfortunately, and I haven't heard you play yours or try to EQ it to get the low end under control and get your sound (I also don't know what your sound is), so I can only guess at what might help.

That said, I wonder if you might be going about things the wrong way. When you say you "notch hard down low" with the Empress EQ, I infer a deep, narrow cut, which is what I might do if I had a specific note that jumped out from the others -- a specific problem frequency -- but if the low end overall is too big and boomy, I'd think a more broad and shallow cut would be more helpful.

Likewise, I wonder if too much deep low end information and/or extension is actually the problem -- or as significant a contributor to it as you think it might be. It sounds to me like you're dialing out too much -- maybe the problem is too much 250-500 Hz (to pick some random numbers) and you're trying to get rid of it by rolling up the HPF. You're not going to get to the problem area that way, but you will neuter your lows. Again, I don't know that this is what's going on, but it seems possible from what you're saying.

Finally, while I've always played my 18Sound 112 vertically and on the floor and never had any problems with uncontrolled low end, I've found that the 46, run with or without the 110 sub, benefits from being elevated (indeed, that's how Mike recommends those cabs be run). Getting them a foot or a foot-and-a-half off the floor reduces the low end coupling and clears things up -- there is still plenty of bass on tap (with the sub especially), but it's not obscuring the mids and highs like it can when the cabs are on the floor, and the whole rig feels better balanced. Maybe the Faital 112 would benefit from a similar treatment? Worth trying to see. If you're on a boomy/hollow stage, that could help, too.

I'd try elevating the cab (if you have the room, I'd also try elevating it and running it horizontally, just to see what happens). I'd do that first. As for HPF/EQ, I'd try rolling up the HPF until you start to hear it thin out the sound a bit, then I'd back it off a hair from there. With the Empress, unless you think you've got a specific problem note, I'd mess around with some more broad and gentle cuts down low. I'm guessing that what you're hearing is more upper bass/low mids than you want to and that it's masking the mids/highs you want to hear, which is what's making you feel like you're in Reggae band instead of a Yes tribute.

If all that doesn't get you where you want to go, it may very well be that that's not the cab -- or at least not the version of that cab -- for you.

For the record, I think 3rdcurve's characterization of the 18Sound 112, which is my current go-to cab, is fair -- it is lean and dry, but it takes EQ well (that said, I don't use much EQ), hits hard down low, and opens up nicely at performance volume, so it's worked well for me and my tonal goals (I like lots of clarity and articulation). I think I'd dig the Eminence version, too. From descriptions I've read and talking with Mike, I don't think the Faital version would be for me, but it seems lots of Blues guys love it and that it would be good for (though not limited to) Reggae and other bottom-heavy styles.

Anyway, good luck. Let us know how things work out for you.

All very good information, and much of the same things I actually have done over my time with this cab, which has been all summer. I have elevated it, I have notched narrow and broad down low and upper/mid bass and low mids, I have just run straight through amps with no extra eq settings (pedals). I have run it through Streamliner, PF800, DB751, MM1000. I have had it up at least 8-12" and on isolators, moved it from corners etc. The only thing I have not tried is horizontal, but that will never happen as most stages don't have the room to get into that habit. I really don't think it is the cab for me, but I am really interested if a speaker swap will do it as I do really, really like the dispersion thang with this - it is like nothing I have ever heard in my 30+ years of playing. i have an email off to Mike, last week some time, but alas he has not seemed to be very responsive yet. As far as my tone? I am a roots, Red Dirt classic/southern rock kinda guy. Warm, deep yet defined and punchy. I mostly play a pbass with flats or old rounds. Currently my main rig is oddly my cheapest equipment - two avatar b210neo vertical stack with PF800. And I tell ya, that rig sounds really good in many places. I typically cut some low bass in preference for upper bass to reduce boom and rumble but stay tight, punchy and warm with clear and defined notes. With the MAS112 it is deep, and can be punchy for me, but the low end to my ear tends to mask or overpower the mids and upper area - when attempting to clear that up I almost always find myself straddling a fence of neutered and very bass heavy. These techniques are really nothing new for any rig and should be done for each space. I will say that I have never been able to hear it out in a room. I know it sounds good because I do get compliments on the tone, but they are usually in reference to being able to hear it everywhere the same. And to temper that, I usually get good comments on my tone with most of my rigs, so I have to take it with a grain of salt. But man that dispersion is something. It may mean selling and picking a different model, but that whole shipping and sales thing is time consuming and I have a habit of putting it off...... I will patiently wait for Mikes response, I know he is helpful and I also know he is very busy so in the meantime I many other things to play through while I wait. Thanks again for the tips, they are appreciated. Maybe any ideas of one of his cabs that would be more my tonal area??

 

[MarkA]

...Maybe any ideas of one of his cabs that would be more my tonal area??

Hard to say with certainty as, again, I've not played the Faital 112, but from what you say I'd think the Eminence 112 would be a good candidate. The 18Sound 112 would be leaner, yet, in the upper bass, if that's what you want. The Flex might work if the form factor is agreeable to you. The Bodai 112 (and other Bodai cabs) should be impressive -- I've not played one, though I hope to sometime after Mike is done with NAMM and my own schedule calms down a bit.

I'll refer you to this thread I posted some months back -- made it with the intention of comparing and contrasting different amps, but all of the miced clips are made with my 18Sound MAS 112. Perhaps you'll find that useful. There are more clips and details about how they were made in the thread, but the most relevant ones for you would, I think, be these, recorded with the amps "flat" (knobs at noon -- likely not actually flat except for maybe the Glock).
I'm playing a passive Fender with 500K pots.
"Flat" MICED tracks...

EDIT: The two GBE tracks might be of particular interest to you, given your experimentation with an HPF. The GBE has an "LF Extend" control which is basically an adjustable HPF. "No LFX" has that control disengaged, and the amp starts to roll off, if I rightly recall, at ~45Hz. Fully engaged lowers the roll-off point to ~30 Hz. Don't recall where I had it set, here, but I used a "healthy dose." If I had to guess, I'd say it's set somewhere in the mid-30s Hz. Don't know the slope of the roll-off, but I'd guess it's relatively steep.​

Some quick older clips (bass had EMGs, EQ and mic location different) with the Kustom KXB500, a Mesa Walkabout, and a Markbass F500, still through the 112: NAD: The BEST Amp I've Ever Heard!! Kustom KXB500

Somewhere in this thread or an earlier version of it I also posted some clips of the Flex and 46. Nothing I've posted is anything like professionally recorded, but it might give you some idea. To me, the lows seem controlled and the mids and highs present enough in these clips, but you can decide for yourself.

I mentioned that I thought I'd like the Eminence 112 for live playing. When I played them side-by-side at Mike's, the 18Sound was leaner in the upper bass and "drier" (by that I mean that the notes stop faster than with any other cab I've played -- some of this is amp-dependent, though). It also kicked harder at the bottom of its register (Eminence has more chest-thump, but not as pronounced or as focused as the Flex does). The Eminence had more going on in the upper bass/lower mids -- nothing drastic; a broad and relatively gentle rise -- and had more going on in the mid-mids -- more euphonious breakup there than the 18 Sound does (the 18 Sound will grind in the upper mids, but doesn't really break up in the mid-mids). Eminence felt a bit more open down low. Note envelope a bit rounder than the relatively square-edged envelope (again, somewhat amp-dependent) of the 18Sound, but still nice and articulate. Also more efficient. Vocing-wise, seems part-way between the 18Sound 112 and the Flex. Some of the more R&B-leaning guys who've played my 112 find it a bit aggressive and mid-forward. I think the Eminence version would lean a bit in their direction while still keeping much of what I like about my 18 Sound 112. (I think I'd like that bit of mid breakup more, actually.) I don't find the 18Soud to be clinical, but the Eminence seemed to me to have more character -- to be a bit more "rock" (though I think it would be great for funk, etc., too). I imagine the Bodai would have more of the Flex's crazy midrange and other qualities and I think that the woofer enclosure is voiced a little more for punch and less for extension than the MAS 112s, but, again, I haven't played it.

 

[lelandcrooks]

Mike is buried getting ready for NAMM. He'll get back to you.

 

[Gab124]

Hard to say with certainty as, again, I've not played the Faital 112, but from what you say I'd think the Eminence 112 would be a good candidate. The 18Sound 112 would be leaner, yet, in the upper bass, if that's what you want. The Flex might work if the form factor is agreeable to you. The Bodai 112 (and other Bodai cabs) should be impressive -- I've not played one, though I hope to sometime after Mike is done with NAMM and my own schedule calms down a bit.

I'll refer you to this thread I posted some months back -- made it with the intention of comparing and contrasting different amps, but all of the miced clips are made with my 18Sound MAS 112. Perhaps you'll find that useful. There are more clips and details about how they were made in the thread, but the most relevant ones for you would, I think, be these, recorded with the amps "flat" (knobs at noon -- likely not actually flat except for maybe the Glock).
I'm playing a passive Fender with 500K pots.
"Flat" MICED tracks...

EDIT: The two GBE tracks might be of particular interest to you, given your experimentation with an HPF. The GBE has an "LF Extend" control which is basically an adjustable HPF. "No LFX" has that control disengaged, and the amp starts to roll off, if I rightly recall, at ~45Hz. Fully engaged lowers the roll-off point to ~30 Hz. Don't recall where I had it set, here, but I used a "healthy dose." If I had to guess, I'd say it's set somewhere in the mid-30s Hz. Don't know the slope of the roll-off, but I'd guess it's relatively steep.​

Some quick older clips (bass had EMGs, EQ and mic location different) with the Kustom KXB500, a Mesa Walkabout, and a Markbass F500, still through the 112: NAD: The BEST Amp I've Ever Heard!! Kustom KXB500

Somewhere in this thread or an earlier version of it I also posted some clips of the Flex and 46. Nothing I've posted is anything like professionally recorded, but it might give you some idea. To me, the lows seem controlled and the mids and highs present enough in these clips, but you can decide for yourself.

I mentioned that I thought I'd like the Eminence 112 for live playing. When I played them side-by-side at Mike's, the 18Sound was leaner in the upper bass and "drier" (by that I mean that the notes stop faster than with any other cab I've played -- some of this is amp-dependent, though). It also kicked harder at the bottom of its register (Eminence has more chest-thump, but not as pronounced or as focused as the Flex does). The Eminence had more going on in the upper bass/lower mids -- nothing drastic; a broad and relatively gentle rise -- and had more going on in the mid-mids -- more euphonious breakup there than the 18 Sound does (the 18 Sound will grind in the upper mids, but doesn't really break up in the mid-mids). Eminence felt a bit more open down low. Note envelope a bit rounder than the relatively square-edged envelope (again, somewhat amp-dependent) of the 18Sound, but still nice and articulate. Also more efficient. Vocing-wise, seems part-way between the 18Sound 112 and the Flex. Some of the more R&B-leaning guys who've played my 112 find it a bit aggressive and mid-forward. I think the Eminence version would lean a bit in their direction while still keeping much of what I like about my 18 Sound 112. (I think I'd like that bit of mid breakup more, actually.) I don't find the 18Soud to be clinical, but the Eminence seemed to me to have more character -- to be a bit more "rock" (though I think it would be great for funk, etc., too). I imagine the Bodai would have more of the Flex's crazy midrange and other qualities and I think that the woofer enclosure is voiced a little more for punch and less for extension than the MAS 112s, but, again, I haven't played it.

\

Thanks - that was all very helpful and I think it would put me leaning toward the Eminence. Mike contacted me back and it is a possibility to retrofit my cab, though we still need to speak on the phone about the details/options.
Thanks to all, I will keep you updated.
Chris

 

[3rdcurve]

I finally found the limit of the MAS112.

I am auditioning for an established local band next week who plays mostly in drop C tuning. With a bit of scoop dialed in the cab sounded huge and clear. No mud even when playing fast staccato passages. I incrementally brought up the volume until I could start to hear the speaker start to compress. Then backed off a bit. Two guitars both with half stacks, we will see if she keeps up. This band plays outdoor festivals in the summer months, so I may be on the lookout for a second 12.

 

[MarkA]

I finally found the limit of the MAS112.

I am auditioning for an established local band next week who plays mostly in drop C tuning. With a bit of scoop dialed in the cab sounded huge and clear. No mud even when playing fast staccato passages. I incrementally brought up the volume until I could start to hear the speaker start to compress. Then backed off a bit. Two guitars both with half stacks, we will see if she keeps up. This band plays outdoor festivals in the summer months, so I may be on the lookout for a second 12.

What amp are you playing with? Two 112s outdoors would, I think, be pretty insane in a good way. Meanwhile, an HPF of some sort (if you're not running one already) might not be a bad idea to protect the cab. Or you could get one of the 15s...

Good luck with the audition!

 

[MrBEAR]

Two 112s outdoors would, I think, be pretty insane in a good way!

Sanity is a state of mind.

The few times that I played a pair of 18 Sound MAS 112 cabinets outdoors , powered by a Glockenklang Heart Rock II...........

I didn't' mind.
Come to think of it, neither did the FOH crew.

With vortexitude happening, I'd characterize the event as being IN sanity.

 

[3rdcurve]

What amp are you playing with? Two 112s outdoors would, I think, be pretty insane in a good way. Meanwhile, an HPF of some sort (if you're not running one already) might not be a bad idea to protect the cab. Or you could get one of the 15s...

Good luck with the audition!

Thanks! Currently running a Reidmar 750. So.... if I do get another 12 I will have to get another amp that can handle 2 ohms. I'll cross that bridge when we come to it. This music is a little heavier than I normally play, but it's good to step outside your comfort zone. I haven't gigged in a bit, need to knock the dust off!

 

[mntngrown]

Man, I would not even know where to start re:down tuning. For an old geezer blues guy like me down tuning is one fret for SRV. No gear concerns . Good luck. Played the 210 flex out in a 2 guitar drums and me scene last night. Kustom 500 micro. Had the Peavey minimega in the car planning to switch at a break. Somehow talkin to all the nice folks in the audience and gettin my beer token redeemed took up my time. The flex took care of business. Next gig the Peavey. Or the Super Bassman. Still have to determine if my perception that the original 48 is my fave of all time or just nostalgia, as it was the OMG moment of BigE gig experience. The 46 was killer 2 for 4 stringer with flats. Non scientific hack over and out!

 

[MarkA]

Man, I would not even know where to start re:down tuning. For an old geezer blues guy like me down tuning is one fret for SRV. No gear concerns . Good luck. Played the 210 flex out in a 2 guitar drums and me scene last night. Kustom 500 micro. Had the Peavey minimega in the car planning to switch at a break. Somehow talkin to all the nice folks in the audience and gettin my beer token redeemed took up my time. The flex took care of business. Next gig the Peavey. Or the Super Bassman. Still have to determine if my perception that the original 48 is my fave of all time or just nostalgia, as it was the OMG moment of BigE gig experience. The 46 was killer 2 for 4 stringer with flats. Non scientific hack over and out!

I got to spend a little time with @thumbs&fingers 48 this summer -- just lower volume indoor stuff, but I thought the tone was killer with a tube amp. Would love to hear it opened up sometime in a setting that would do it justice.

 

[mntngrown]

I got to spend a little time with @thumbs&fingers 48 this summer -- just lower volume indoor stuff, but I thought the tone was killer with a tube amp. Would love to hear it opened up sometime in a setting that would do it justice.

Yeah, I used to rehearse in a professionally sound engineered performance venue, and gigged there once or twice also. The Super Bassman on the 48 sounded great there.

 

[mntngrown]

It is with continued amazement that there is no Purgatory, only eternal damnation and we have to go with folks that are able to visit the manufacturer for news. I vote for Amnesty. The outgoing administration as is tradition has pardoned many. Maybe a pardon for MAS so he could answer our questions?? "come on man"! I did not say anything negative about the officiating like the last time which got me a penalty. Just wondering why anyone can be banned for life?

 

[mntngrown]

Sanity is a state of mind.

The few times that I played a pair of 18 Sound MAS 112 cabinets outdoors , powered by a Glockenklang Heart Rock II...........

I didn't' mind.
Come to think of it, neither did the FOH crew.

With vortexitude happening, I'd characterize the event as being IN sanity.

I am sure your mental state was sane bliss

 

[Tslicebass]

Really excited to be teaming up with Mike this year at NAMM. We are gonna have some really cool stuff at the booth so make sure you stop by if you are at the show. Hall E Booth 1272. It will be myself, MAS and sonic farm sharing. We are stoked to finally be getting ready for the show after an epic 3 day long journey from Chicago to Anaheim.

 

[MarkA]

Really excited to be teaming up with Mike this year at NAMM. We are gonna have some really cool stuff at the booth so make sure you stop by if you are at the show. Hall E Booth 1272. It will be myself, MAS and sonic farm sharing. We are stoked to finally be getting ready for the show after an epic 3 day long journey from Chicago to Anaheim.

Wish you guys much success down there. Or over there. Everyone knows south is "down".

 

[MarkA]

Sanity is a state of mind.

The few times that I played a pair of 18 Sound MAS 112 cabinets outdoors , powered by a Glockenklang Heart Rock II...........

I didn't' mind.
Come to think of it, neither did the FOH crew.

With vortexitude happening, I'd characterize the event as being IN sanity.

I recently picked up a Heart Rock II. It's big and heavy compared to the popular class D amps, but I missed out on a certain era of lead sleds the first time around and I can't help wanting to compare them with their closest available switching analogues. So far I've gotten to A/B a GBE 1200 with a Shuttlemax 12.0 (and a Genzler Magellan) and the Heart Rock II with a Blue Rock, but I digress...

I only have the one 112 but, when I had the 112 and the 46+sub out at the same time, comparing them (posted about it some months back) I, very briefly, ran them all at the same time. Wish I'd done a little more... I think I reacted to that at the endocrine level.

 

[spiritbass]

I recently picked up a Heart Rock II. It's big and heavy compared to the popular class D amps, but I missed out on a certain era of lead sleds the first time around and I can't help wanting to compare them with their closest available switching analogues. So far I've gotten to A/B a GBE 1200 with a Shuttlemax 12.0 (and a Genzler Magellan) and the Heart Rock II with a Blue Rock, but I digress...

I only have the one 112 but, when I had the 112 and the 46+sub out at the same time, comparing them (posted about it some months back) I, very briefly, ran them all at the same time. Wish I'd done a little more... I think I reacted to that at the endocrine level.

The endocrine level is serious physical business. Just one of Mike's 112's can deliver body blows when you're close to it. I can only imagine what his new 15 Bodai can deliver.

 

[thumbs&fingers]

So truuuuuuuuuu...........

 

[spiritbass]

Bodai!

 

[wagdog]

So what are we looking at here, 10, 15, 12? And is it too much to say I want one of each?