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Big E Speakers Part 4 - Quadraphenia

#445
Just got home a little while ago -- been on the road maybe eight hours today and I'm beat, but I want to set some stuff down before I forget. I'll come back and expand upon it later.

Paid Mike a visit today. Played through two of the MAS 112s with the 18 Sound drivers, one with and one without the Ciare tweeter (I think these are going out to a couple of lucky guys in this thread -- you are both in for a treat).

Also getting varying amounts of play-time:
  • the new 45 and 25 cabs (in my opinion, a big improvement over the original versions)
  • my 2nd gen 66
  • Mike's 3rd gen 66
  • my mid-loaded Dr. Bass 212
  • an Epifani PS-112
  • The JGR "Box o' Tone"
  • The Sonic Farm DI
  • a Demeter HBP-1 800D
  • a Mesa Walkabout
  • a Genz GBE 1200
  • the 1200 Watt poweramp that JGR and Mike dreamed up
There wasn't a Flex on hand (hey, you can't have everything), but no way can I complain. I won't say anything now about what Mike's living room looked like or at what lengths various permutations of the above-listed gear were explored, but if you use your imagination, it will be apparent that I owe Mike a huge "Thank you."

I played my 4-string PJ and Mike thumped some on his 5 string Roscoe. (Incidentally, Mike, I like the changes you made with the pickups on that bass -- to my ear, it's both richer and more open up top, and the B-string is more focused and in better balance with the others. Don't know how much is the pups and how much the placement -- or new strings? -- but that's what I heard!)

All of the cabs are articulate, but they all have their own voice and feel. The 66 is biggest down low. The 112 is the leanest and meanest -- the most muscular in its presentation. The 45 sits in between, voicing-wise.

Recorded music: 45, then 66, then 112. The cabs are all voiced with bass in mind, but all function at least reasonably well with recorded music (though, as Mike remarked, the 45 and 66 would be better choices for PA doubling than the 112). The 45 especially -- beautiful mids despite only being a two-way, and my favorite tweeters of the bunch. 3D presentation. Just thick enough. I really like this cab.

The top-handle and wheels on the 112 are slick -- nicely ergonomic; tilts and rolls better than your dorm-fridge on a hand-cart. Easier to carry up and down tight stairs than the 66 (or my Dr. Bass), too.

(Harmonics with the different cabs deserve their own special section. Neck-pickup with the tone rolled-down on the 112 does, too. Will touch on Dr. Bass vs. 112 and Epifani vs. 45.)

Box o' Tone has a special synergy with the 112. I really liked that combo. Sonic Farm might have something similar with the 66... both were pretty stellar with a variety of cabs.

Again, will come back and flesh this out later!
 
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#447
J.Wolf said:
View attachment 447213

Ruined indeed. Not sure what to say other than this was a 4 hour outdoor gig with two drum kits and the rig sounded better than most recorded bass tones that I strive for. The flex 210 is the best sounding bass cab I've encountered period, and the Monique 700 is just stoopid sounding. I was in heaven all night. Seriously blows the doors off anything else I've played.

Pardon the gratuitous photo of OPG (other people's gear). :-D
Click to expand...

So is the orange container full of oxygen for those overcome by the awesomeness? ;)
 
#450
5StringPocket said:
Lucky dog! I'm jealous. Waiting for my MAS66 cabs and Demeter VTBP-800D to arrive...
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"Cabs," plural? That's right, Mike did mention someone ordering two of these. For doubling on PA duty? My first, slightly alarmed thought was a 12x6 stack (which would be alarming with the right head, though you'd dip below 4 Ohms). Some pages back you'll see a mention of me using my 66, with no EQ, to play "Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs 2" for a cafeteria full of raucous elementary school kids. It performed surprisingly well -- big and clear (even in mono) and dynamic at a fraction of its volume potential. Based on listening to recorded music back-to-back to Mike's 66 and mine, the newer 66, with its dedicated mids, will do better for PA use.

I haven't played the new, 201-based lunchbox-head, but the HBP kicks hard through the 66.

EDIT: Glanced over my post of last night and want to clarify: I liked the sound of the 45 the most with recorded music and think it would make a beautiful replacement for most 112s, but the 6"-based cabs would be stouter for PA use -- louder and lower but still clear and detailed.

EDIT AGAIN: To be clear, I think the 45 would be a great candidate to replace a single 12" based conventional cab, NOT the MAS 112. I think the 66 will be stouter for PA use than the 45 (louder and lower, etc); that's not a comparison with the MAS 112. I hope there's no confusion there!
 
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#451
MarkA said:
"Cabs," plural? That's right, Mike did mention someone ordering two of these. For doubling on PA duty? My first, slightly alarmed thought was a 12x6 stack (which would be alarming with the right head, though you'd dip below 4 Ohms). Some pages back you'll see a mention of me using my 66, with no EQ, to play "Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs 2" for a cafeteria full of raucous elementary school kids. It performed surprisingly well -- big and clear (even in mono) and dynamic at a fraction of its volume potential. Based on listening to recorded music back-to-back to Mike's 66 and mine, the newer 66, with its dedicated mids, will do better for PA use.

I haven't played the new, 201-based lunchbox-head, but the HBP kicks hard through the 66.

EDIT: Glanced over my post of last night and want to clarify: I liked the sound of the 45 the most with recorded music and think it would make a beautiful replacement for most 112s, but the 6"-based cabs would be stouter for PA use -- louder and lower but still clear and detailed.
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The 112s weren't your thing?
 
#452
3rdcurve said:
The 112s weren't your thing?
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No! They totally were! My favorite combo of the night was JGR's Box o' Tone through the 1200 W poweramp through the MAS 112. Listening to recorded music, the 45 was my favorite cab, the 66 my second favorite. I liked the 112 less for recorded music, but it wasn't designed for that, it was designed as a bass cab. In that capacity, it's pretty close to my ideal. (I'd have to hear it next to a Flex -- played a 110 last year, but my memory of it isn't clear enough to reliably A/B across that time.) And, for playing recorded music, it's still way better than most bass cabs (yeah, I've tried that on occasion with my cabs -- ever since I was a kid and hooked a CD player up to my Gorilla combo amp :)).

I was writing really tired last night -- I did just want to set some stuff down before I forgot and give myself a framework to expand on. Hope I didn't give any wrong impressions -- when I have some time here, before too long, I'll give things a proper write up.

My comment about two 66s was more along the lines of "Crap!" I was picturing a stack of two of them. One is pretty formidable -- I've been using mine without PA support, just to see how it keeps up, and haven't hit its limits yet. My comment about the 45 replacing a 112 was referring to a conventional 12" bass cab, not the MAS 112!
 
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#453
Thanks, Mark
The 112 was designed from the ground up as an electric bass speaker. What we were able to do is to work on the crossovers and driver integration. What that yielded was an even more effective electric bass speaker but a much more balanced speaker for playing music through. Duke and his wife stayed up until 3am listening to music after he worked on the crossover.

My experience is that some speakers sound really good when I initially play bass through them but as time goes on little anomalies become more apparent as I have more live experience with the cab. The reason I always play music through them is that those anomalies show up right away and are very apparent. While with the 112 I was going for a bit more mid-forward presentation, spending a lot of time listening through music through them allowed for a lot more fine-tuning.

I just wanted to clarify that the 112 sounds better than most at playing recorded music--just not as good as the 45 or 66. But as much as I like them (I gig with a 66 -new crossover) none of my speakers has the muscle or impact of the 112.

Also, just to clarify--the reason the new 45 can now compete with conventional 12" cabs is the new 18Sound drivers which go much louder and lower than the previous Faitals.
 
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#454
MarkA said:
"Cabs," plural? That's right, Mike did mention someone ordering two of these. For doubling on PA duty? My first, slightly alarmed thought was a 12x6 stack (which would be alarming with the right head, though you'd dip below 4 Ohms). Some pages back you'll see a mention of me using my 66, with no EQ, to play "Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs 2" for a cafeteria full of raucous elementary school kids. It performed surprisingly well -- big and clear (even in mono) and dynamic at a fraction of its volume potential. Based on listening to recorded music back-to-back to Mike's 66 and mine, the newer 66, with its dedicated mids, will do better for PA use.
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Yes, I've got a pair coming for doubling on PA duty. I have a Crown XTi4000, Driverack PA+, and Yamaha 01v96 board to run them. They have reinforced pole mount cups for mounting on stands at about chest height to get the mids and highs off the ground. I did see your post on using a single 66 in a noisy cafeteria. I figured if that worked out, a pair of the new gen 3 models with a PA amp and mixer should be plenty for what I do. Really interested in the dispersion, throw, and imaging these should have. If I don't have to supply PA I can just take one with an 800 watt head for a stage rig. A single MAS66 should be enough stage cab for any gig I play.
 
#455
Mike Arnopol said:
The 112 was designed from the ground up as an electric bass speaker. What we were able to do is to work on the crossovers and driver integration. What that yielded was an even more effective electric bass speaker but a much more balanced speaker for playing music through.
Click to expand...

Mike (or anyone else), what's your impression of the MAS112 for upright bass (aside from the fact that it's probably overkill SPL-wise)? I listened to Gary Karr through the cab, as well as that guy who plays for Patricia Barber, and thought it was among the best big cabs I've heard, and in some ways the very best I've heard, despite being far from the most expensive. The percussive hit at the leading edge of the notes, and accompanying clarity, sets it apart. Yes, I have percussive envy.

Okay probably time for me to post my disclaimer: I have zero commercial interest in the MAS112. Mike fully intended to pay me for my crossover work, and I fully intended to get paid, but after hearing the cab I decided that I'd rather be free to talk about it, which meant that I couldn't profit from either my work on it or from its future sales.
 
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#456
DukeLeJeune said:
Mike (or anyone else), what's your impression of the MAS112 for upright bass (aside from the fact that it's probably overkill SPL-wise)? I listened to Gary Karr through the cab, as well as that guy who plays for Patricia Barber, and thought it was among the best big cabs I've heard, and in some ways the very best I've heard, despite being far from the most expensive. The percussive hit at the leading edge of the notes, and accompanying clarity, sets it apart. Yes, I have percussive envy.

Okay probably time for me to post my disclaimer: I have zero commercial interest in the MAS112. Mike fully intended to pay me for my crossover work, and I fully intended to get paid, but after hearing the cab I decided that I'd rather be free to talk about it, which meant that I couldn't profit from either my work on it or from its future sales.
Click to expand...

I met Gary Karr when I was in 4th grade. He and Harmon Lewis came and played a free concert in the lower level of our public library. I had just started playing bass in the school orchestra. I was SO STOKED. They put on a great show and Mr. Karr was very indulgent of all our kiddie questions.

Re. the second part, zowie. Not sure what to say but that I admire your fidelity to your stance.

Just walked in (seems to be a theme lately) from a late jam. Nothing to report on the Big E front right this second but, on a semi-related note, I can say that if you're looking to get more clean headroom from a Walkabout, the fDeck HPF makes a difference. Played the same room last week without, and tonight with (set, I would guess to between 40 and 50 Hz) and it made a noticeable difference in how loud I could get without things compressing or getting hairy. I guess on another related note, at Mike's place, the Walkabout pushed the 8 Ohm MAS 112 louder than I thought it would. The other, much higher wattage heads pushed it better and will go louder, but the WA did okay. With the 4 Ohm version of the MA-112 and an HPF filter, I think you could do a lot better. As much as I like the Walkabout, I'm still not sure that I want to build a rig around its power constraints, but for those looking to make the most of a lower-wattage head (especially if it doesn't have much of a built-in HPF, which the WA doesn't seem to), the 112 with an HPF could be a good combo. I think (based on the voicing of the MAS 112) its voicing would be a good match for the Walkabout, too.
 
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#458
Ok---first of all--I didn't ask Duke to ask about upright with the 112. I guess since he listened to it with some upright he was curious. I'm just mentioning this because as soon as I state my opinion on the sound of one of my cabs (and it's just MY opinion)---even after being specifically asked, certain entities complain to the mods about my relentless self-promotion. I have to apologize to the other speaker manufacturers that don't happen to play bass for a living. People ask me---and I feel that I have a right to answer. Keep in mind that this is just my opinion.

Ok--the 112
I was kindof limiting my focus on the 112. I wanted to make a speaker at a lower price point that would do electric bass really well. Forget about double duty as a PA or hifi. I just wanted really good electric bass. So I wasn't even thinking about upright, or styles on electric that were more based on clarity of articulation and accuracy of harmonic structure. Or speed of articulation. All I was concentrating on was if it kicked butt with electric. To be honest--I initially thought that it would suck with upright.

I have to thank Nomatic again for being such a gearhead geek/nudge. He laid out a challenge for us to up our midrange game with the 112 . And thanks to Duke I'm happy with what we achieved.

I was very surprised with the MAS112 on upright. For medium to high volume upright gigs it's my new cab of choice. I think it actually beats out my 46/66 although they both work well with upright.
For small to medium gigs I still prefer the 45 with the new drivers. But the 112 is really open and articulate with upright. I knew it would have a lot of power but I didn't think the envelope would be fast enough. It's actually faster than the 6" based cabs. I think that it might be the immediacy of the 4's and the control of the 18sound woofer. So--at least for me---two big thumbs up for upright with the 112.
I have to thank Mark A. for stopping by and opening up my ears as far as auditioning my cabs. Usually I'm beating the crap out of them to show the power and dynamics. Mark had us stay at a comfortable medium volume. He did a lot of chordal and harmonic stuff. Again--I was so hyper-focused on the slammin' bass capabilities that I assumed that for the articulate stuff that the 112 might be too slow or maybe a tad on the crude side. I was pleasantly surprised.

BTW---Sonic Farm on upright--holy moly
 
#459
A note on volume: When I visited Mike last year we took the cabs (my Dr. Bass 212, an early 46 and 85, and a 110 Flex) outside and pounded the crap out of them (at least I think we did -- not sure what Mike's standards are for a proper flogging). Having done that, and having owned a 2nd gen 66 for a little while now, I won't say that I know what all of the cabs can do at high volume, but I've got an idea. With the bigger cabs (66 and MAS 112) I was less concerned with evaluating their ultimate dynamic potential than comparing tone, feel, and response in various registers and with various techniques. Either of those cabs -- or any loud cab, really -- is capable of overloading your typical living room pretty easily and then, at least for me, it's hard to tell what things actually sound like. I guess we could have hauled all seven cabs and six amps/pres outside, but that didn't occur to us at the outset. We did spend some time with all of the cabs at gnarlier volumes nearer the beginning (louder and I'd have reached for my earplugs), and we did push the 45 pretty good at one point to see what it could do solo (that was with the Puma, and I let Mike determine the "I probably wouldn't go much louder" point), but I don't think we ever strained the bigger cabs or approached the limit of their output.
 
#460
Re straining the bigger cabs out of doors. I have yet to find the limits of my 48, although I have played block parties where I previously used a 1515/66 and let another band's bassist use my rig and then walked 1/2 block away and could hear him punch clearly. This same band turned our PA up so loud the cops shut the block party down, and there was a permit. So for me the BigE vortex "carries" the sound out to distance clearly and articulately regardless of whether it is "loud" per se. The guy that borrowed my rig said,"I love your "4x10". Little did he know it has SPL that beats most/all 8x10's. And of course was a 4x8.
 
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