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Big E Speakers Part 4 - Quadraphenia

I have not hauled the 4x8 and 210 flex together anywhere. The house would be difficult. I have played the same annual block party with each now, but used different heads. The jury is still out, but for my 4 string with flats style in a big room or outdoors the 4x8 really gets it done. Especially nice with the super bassman. Again Im just a blues and 60's rock guy. I need to try the 2x10 flex with the super bassman head soon. I think I like the 46 best of all, but it would need FOH support for big or outside, and as Kesslari said they are all shades of great.
 
Thanks for your thoughts on them.

A while ago I asked what the best MAS cab for metal was, and was told the Flex would work for me. Then the 112 came out. Then rumors surfaced about the 15" variants. Keeping up has been very interesting and informative but hasn't helped narrow down a choice at all.

But, given my needs, I think the Flex would be just fine. I don't require anything as big as the 1- or 215 for my personal use (but I like to "stoke the fire" whenever I can!)

Raz
 
One of the things the Flex has that is unique is the tonal flexibility baked into the cabinet (and not just coming from the amp).
It's actually overkill for me - the default settings sound great to my ear. But eventually I'll start gigging again and I'll be grateful for some of that extra "Flex"ibility. :D
 
The 4x8 sounds similar to the VOC. the beauty for me is the simplicity in both these cabs, no switches or changes unless you do it on your bass or amp. The flex 210, however, is capable of changing the sound with the different switching configurations. I prefer the sound of the VOC and 4x8 (I'm a rock guy) but I wouldn't be upset if a flex 210 was all I had. It's a matter of what YOUR ears and tone preferences are. Only if you play them side by side (I have) can you tell the differences.
 
I know that some of you are interested in this topic, and it's been on my mind since Friday, so, here goes.

112 (18 Sound)/Flex ramble.

I've been going back and forth between the 112 and the Flex for the last three days. At least once a day, I change my mind about which one I like better. It's been said before and sounds a bit silly, but playing these cabs really is like playing an instrument. I guess I've always thought of my amp and cabs, at least to some degree, as extensions of my instrument. When I started playing electric at the age of 15 (coming from Doublebass and trombone), it weirded me out that I was playing my instrument over *here* and the sound was coming out over *there*, from that box. Felt weirdly disconnected and impersonal (especially when the pep band played a big, boomy gym and the setup required me to be some distance from the amp). I got over that, but a good rig/setup, for me, has always been one that enhances that feeling of connection, of what you're doing at the instrument being manifest instantly in the sound. There are of course other factors than the rig you're playing that figure into this, and this feeling is achievable with other cabs, but Mike's cabs facilitate it better than any others I've played. Put a less touchy-feely way, they are the most touch-responsive cabs I've played. And, like acoustic instruments, they respond differently.

Both cabs are quick and clear. The 112 is "drier" and stiffer feeling. The notes stop instantly. There is no detectable bleed from one to another, to the point where I feel it keeps me on my toes with my *left* hand; if I'm arpeggiating a chord and I want the notes to ring through for a certain length, I'd better be sure not to lift my fingers a split second early. Staccato passages are spit out as fast as you and your amp can handle them. Note separation is exemplary.

The Flex, while also very quick, is a little more forgiving in this regard. If it were a guitar, its top would vibrate more freely and it would be a little more resonant. That's not to say that you can't do the rapid-fire staccato stuff with it just as well (I haven't found anything I can do with one cab that I can't manage convincingly with the other), but that you achieve the result with a slightly different touch. I find that, with the Flex, I'll have my left hand resting a bit more lightly on the strings, muting a hair sooner. I might play a bit closer to the bridge to get the same focus. Both the Flex and the 112, however, are very responsive to hand placement. Last night, I played a quick fingerpicking/strumming thing that I'd normally have done back by the bridge right at the end of the fingerboard and was amazed that it came off clearly through both cabs. Not saying that I couldn't have managed it - well, even - with another cab, but these cabs encourage me to try stuff like that.

The 112 is brutally quick. The Flex has a bit more bounce. At least that's how I feel it - like it's helping me along. I can't tell which cab starts quicker. Some things feel a little easier to play with one, some with another - like you might like playing a certain song on one guitar more than another - but both are capable, responsive instruments. The 112 does stop a little quicker than the Flex, but the Flex stops quicker than most anything else I've heard.

Mids, amount and quality: The 112 is more mid-forward than the Flex is in every mode but the Full Nasty mode. That's pretty in-your-face and grindy. The mids on the 112 are coming partly from the main driver and partly from those 4" mid-tweets. They are detailed and textured and will render grind from your amp just fine but they don't, to my ear, grind much on their own (that's the one thing about my old 2x12" that I'd graft onto the 112 if I could). I wouldn't call the Flex a grindy cab - its default voicing is smoother and more laid-back - more R&B - than the 112's - but there is something going on with those mids. Part of it has got to be that the 6" mids (same driver, I'm pretty sure, as in my old 2x12") break up earlier than the 4-inchers, part of it that they've got their own waveguide, maybe part that they're crossed-over lower... but they're just so detailed. I don't feel I'm missing anything in the mids with the 112, until I play the Flex. They're a little more full, 3D. Chords up high are a bit more fulfilling with the Flex, no doubt. It has an edge there. Tweeters off, mids up, it will grind - you miss the tweeters more, though (I presume they come in lower on the Flex.)

Mid-boost (really just letting the mids run full-open) on the 112 is more subtle than on the Flex. To my ear, it doesn't make them more "aggressive" so much as thicker. If you have a thin-sounding bass or a scooped sounding amp it can be good for that.

Both cabs slap really well. Here, though, I'd give the edge to the 112. A bit more meaty, with a bit harder kick. Both cabs do pick playing really well, too (almost never do that, but tried to channel a little Bobby Vega today - I'm no Bobby Vega!), with the Flex a little rounder and fuller and the 112 a little more percussive. The 112 handles dirt like a champ (I prefer the tweeter off for that). Haven't tried dirt through the Flex, but I know I'd want the tone rolled way down or the tweeters off.

The 112 has a more small-stage friendly footprint: deepish but tall and narrow and you can stand right on top of it and hear yourself clearly.

Don't know what else to say. If you're a rock player, plug into the 112 and go. It will handle pretty much anything else with some (or maybe no) tweaking. The Flex will do rock, but you'll probably tweak some more. It will do pretty much anything else, and the "Dark" mode is cool for old school. The 112, generally, is more direct and aggressive, but it can do laid-back and sweet. The Flex, generally, a bit more expansive and detailed, but it can do agressive. The 112 is a more "traditional" sounding cab, though I realize that's not a very well-defined term and depends on which tradition you're talking about... Tweets off in Dark mode (mids padded and "light bulb" circuit engaged) with the tone rolled back, the Flex might better approximate an old 15" than the 112...

Digression: I recently switched the pickups on my favorite bass (the one that's had nothing but string changes and an occasional truss rod adjustment since I got it in 1990). I was hating the new pups at first (played them out twice - albeit with supplied backline - and felt lost in the mix both times). Trying to come to terms with them led, in part, to the recent tonal exploration, which happened to result in a lot of open-eared time with both cabs. I'm digging the pups better now. Still don't know if they're keepers, but I'm confident I can get a good result with them live. Hoping to get them and the Flex both out soon to test that proposition. I feel like I know the 112 pretty well by now. The Flex I'm still learning - despite mtngrwn's kind comment several posts up, I don't gig nearly as often as I'd like to - work, life, yadda yadda - but I do what I can!

/ramble
 
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Hey MarkA, not being kind at all. You have a very detailed articulate approach to your impressions of these cabs and it sounds like you put them through their paces with finger style slap chords etc. That's why I have always warned people in this thread not to take my favorite cab statement without a grain of salt. Blues, boogie, old school rock played with fingers only and flats to boot. thumbs&fingers just made me feel OK about preferring my 4x8 over the 210flex at the same outdoor event, (different heads, different years). He plays rock and played them side by side. The 1st gig I took the 4x8 to is a medium size room by measurement, maybe 50 feet from band to back wall bar, but it has a large opening out into a bowling alley. I used wireless and went the bar wearing my bass and hit a few notes. The note hit my ear as if my head was 6" from the cab. I later went to a back room area 15-20 feet behind the cab. Same phenomenon. The drummer was happy even though I had to set up 15ft away from his usual just left of his kit preferred spot. (I love this cause I hate being right next to some rock style drummers). Another thing I notice with the 4x6 is that I apologize to the band for playing too loud after reviewing the little digital recorder record of a gig or rehearsal. It is dominant in the recording. They reply that I was not too loud at the gig. These are very interesting cabs.
 
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To say the least.

Great review, MarkA. I don't play bass, and I got it.

Thanks. Every now and then I give my inner geek full rein and let it go where it will. I realize that it gets into fiddly, subjective stuff, but if I care about it, maybe someone else will, too. I don't know if I'm reviewing the cabs so much as relating my experience of them, which helps me to think through things sometimes, too. Anyway, thanks again!

BTW, best-for-metal: IMO, for more gutteral, rhythmic metal, the 112. For more melodic metal, the Flex. You should be able to cover either genre, though, with either cab and a Faustian deal for world-slaying chops.
 
Thanks. Every now and then I give my inner geek full rein and let it go where it will. I realize that it gets into fiddly, subjective stuff, but if I care about it, maybe someone else will, too. I don't know if I'm reviewing the cabs so much as relating my experience of them, which helps me to think through things sometimes, too. Anyway, thanks again!

BTW, best-for-metal: IMO, for more gutteral, rhythmic metal, the 112. For more melodic metal, the Flex. You should be able to cover either genre, though, with either cab and a Faustian deal for world-slaying chops.
I also have an MAS112 and I would not disagree with anything you said about it. It is mid forward, but not unreasonably so, and it is very quick as you mentioned, probably due to the low-end of the 18 sound. Yet, it is not what I would call modern sounding. It is very warm and I think it pairs really nicely with tubey heads. I am really enjoying my exploration of my Monique 700 with the MAS112. It is a killer combination. It has a vintage type of sound, yet very clear, accurate and punchy. I like the way Monique seems to have smoothed a bit of the upper mids. Can't wait to gig that rig!!
 
MVW "vortextitude :D," among other things, must affect Vd significantly? Or am I wrong? If yes, anyplace that even semi-goes into the very basics/generalities? I've tried searching (although admittedly not to an absolute exhaustive level), but to no avail.
 
MVW "vortextitude :D," among other things, must affect Vd significantly? Or am I wrong? If yes, anyplace that even semi-goes into the very basics/generalities? I've tried searching (although admittedly not to an absolute exhaustive level), but to no avail.

There's some info here (scroll down):

Big E Loudspeakers Technology Partners

And...

"An inside look at The Manipulated Vortex Waveguide Loudspeaker Alignment was published in Link Removed."
 
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Got to gig the 210 Flex Mod, this time with both cabs, not just the top, and my amp(s). (Kustom KXB 500 for most of the night, but tried my Markbass F500 on a few tunes, too.). Covered the same jam I did before, music being largely improvised funk, reggae, hip-hop with a bit of blues and whatever else comes up thrown in.

Instrumentation was different: Two drummers (full set and a stripped down kit), bass (moi for most of the night), keys, guitar, electric banjo (sometimes replaced by a second guitar, sometimes just guitar or banjo playing), ocassional vox, and tenor sax and trumpet - basically in my lap because of the crowded stage - on many tunes. Not a lot of jammers rotating in and out (summer break at the university), but a decent, dancing crowd.

Observations:
Flex Mod with a 500 watt micro can get effortlessly loud. Difference at home practice level, fed by a micro, between it and my 8 Ohm, 18 Sound MAS112 doesn't seem like much, but on the gig it seemed huge. Kustom head or Markbass F500 with Master at 9:00-9:30, *maybe* 10:00, were PLENTY to be clearly heard. This is a loud jam, in a loud club. This was not its loudest night - conversation required a raised voice but not screaming, people danced without pain - but the drummers were in the PA and earplugs were not optional for me. Bass was in the PA, but barely - the bulk of the house sound was from the stage rig, and it was present and full everywhere in the house (when I wasn't playing I was walking around).

At the start of soundcheck, bass was in the monitors. I asked for it to be removed from all monitors and assured the guys in charge of the board that everyone on stage would be able to hear the rig (which they were). I'm glad that they were willing to go with me on that. In this case, though it might seem in some ways counterintuitive, I know it served to clean up the stage mix considerably, which helped lessen the inevitable volume escalation that happens through the night. I told them I'd be able to get by with little or no support in the house, too - they were willing to try little, but not zero. Maybe next time.

When I had my 112 at that club the first time, it was with the F500 and the head was running out of steam (to be fair, I wasn't in the PA). Next time, I took the big GBE 1200 - still no PA, but no headroom issues. The Flex Mod, though, seemed like it would fill that club easily with the Kustom head or the F500. A big difference between running with the sub and running just the top, too.

Played my 4 string P/J. No issues whatsoever getting washed out with the new pups this time. Slap at volume was great, too - thicker and more impactful than at home-practice volume for sure.

Only one other bass player that night. Indulge a little digression: This kid approaches me some months ago at my brother's art show. He introduces himself, tells me that he's a huge Jaco fan and that he's heard me play fretless a few times and that it's inspired him to the point that he's ready to pick up fretless. I tell him that I'm very flattered and still learning myself, but offer to give him some pointers. I don't see or hear from him after that until the jam, when he walks in with his Squier Jazz, with a fretless neck that he's slapped on it. His rhythm is good, his feel is good, his right hand is good and he's got some licks from Continuum and Used to be a Cha-Cha. His left hand is a bit of a mess, but when I try his bass I can see part of the reason why - the nut is way too high, relief way too much. I point this out to him afterward and offer to help him with it - he asked for pointers - and a couple of other things. We'll see if he gets in touch. Anyway, I thought it was cool that he showed up and cool that he went for the fretless.

Switches: ran my P/J in "neutral" mode. Tried a bit of tweets off and dark mode, but neutral sat best. Fretless was a bit boomy and hollow, so I switched on the Mid-boost/nasty mode and it cut musically with that. Wish I'd have tried the out-of phase voicing. Not my fave at home, but could've worked well with this particular fretless in this room.

Kustom felt more punchy, more textured/rougher, thicker in the mids and a little more cutting up top than the F500. Fixed EQ points on it are what they are and could get unbalanced if turned too far, but bass and mids between 12:30-1:00, treble flat or close to it, was all that was needed. F500 not quite as punchy or cutting but smoother, more even, with a more flexible EQ. Both sounded good through the Flex and pushed it easily, at least in this context. Want to try them on a really loud gig - a big stage or outdoors. Might find that more juice is needed then. Also want to try the big amp at this volume, to see what difference it makes in feel.

210 seems like it'll go louder than the 112, which I know goes louder than the Flex top. 1200 cc Vd for the Flex vs 900 cc for the 112... seems to make sense. While I was impressed with how loud and full it got with relatively little juice, I know that I've played louder at that club. While I maintained a healthy volume I didn't feel like I needed to be super-loud to be heard.

Rig was easy to hear even a foot or two away, but standing right on top of it, the 112 is easier to hear. Horizontal dispersion, though - zero issue anywhere.

Kid thought the rig was amazing.
 
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Happy gig report! Still borrowing Mike's 25.5 prototype while I'm waiting for my 45.5 to be constructed. That's my 25.5 on top, prototype on bottom. Terrible room! Just awful! Stage was basically a cave tucked into the side of low-ceiling basement. I'm absolutely floored with the sound of these things. Huge, clean, authoritative sound with headroom to spare! Kept the EQ on the Clarus flat with the HPF set at about 2 o'clock. So round and punchy but with great note definition. I really enjoyed myself last night!

Comparing the Faital 5s with the Eighteen Sound: Very different. To my ears the 18S are quite flat where the Faitals had a midrange bump. I would typically back off the mids a great deal on the Faitals in all but the worst rooms. The 18S sound much fuller and a lot louder.

I cannot wait to hear my 6x5.5!:bassist::bassist::bassist:
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Happy gig report! Still borrowing Mike's 25.5 prototype while I'm waiting for my 45.5 to be constructed. That's my 25.5 on top, prototype on bottom. Terrible room! Just awful! Stage was basically a cave tucked into the side of low-ceiling basement. I'm absolutely floored with the sound of these things. Huge, clean, authoritative sound with headroom to spare! Kept the EQ on the Clarus flat with the HPF set at about 2 o'clock. So round and punchy but with great note definition. I really enjoyed myself last night!

Comparing the Faital 5s with the Eighteen Sound: Very different. To my ears the 18S are quite flat where the Faitals had a midrange bump. I would typically back off the mids a great deal on the Faitals in all but the worst rooms. The 18S sound much fuller and a lot louder.

I cannot wait to hear my 6x5.5!:bassist::bassist::bassist:
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Exactly correct on the faital vs 18 sound. All the faital drivers seem to be a bit mid forward. It can be a either an advantage or not depending the usage. The 18's are not flatter, just voiced lower and differently.