Big E Speakers pt 3

[nutdog]

I posted earlier in this or one of the previous threads. My comparison was the first or second-generation 46 and most recently the 45/110 combo. My general take is that those MAS cabs have more low-mid push and thickness whereas the Baers are more about mid and upper-mid articulation with some edge (reminiscent of the AE210s, but without the occasional harshness those cabs can get). When I hear/see recordings of the guys who dig Mike's cabs, I get why they dig them, and why they aren't quite my thing as I tend to prefer a bit less low-mid content, and I really like to hear the upper-mids speak. Truth be told with the right head you can eq either cab in either direction but in a perfect world I want my head running flat and getting "my sound" with the eq being used to deal with a room or a bass change.

I haven't tried the Flex, and per Mike the Baer sound can be dialed in, at least fairly close. In part, my feedback helped push Mike a bit in the cab design to give some different colors. I will likely have one of the modular Flexes to test at some point. While I dig the sound of my Baers, no cab is perfect. I'd love to have something with a bit less physical depth (loved the AE210s and the 46 in that regard), and no tolex, and with that mid presence that I like and still enough low end push to get people dancing.

I appreciate that. I wasn't so much interested in the tonal differences as the idea that these cabs handle rooms better than "conventional" cabs, for lack of a better word.

 

[nostatic]

In my case, hard to say. I gigged them at two different local spots where I regularly play. I didn't get feedback that it was carrying the room any better or worse, but I do know that I was running at a lower volume because I wasn't digging the low mid push so I had a tougher time hearing myself. With my head I couldn't really eq that out as precisely as I wanted, but I have really picky ears. The comments from the band were "sounds great" and I got the same from those out in the house. Mostly I think it is that I'm really used to having that upper-mid cut from the Baers and that's what I cue on for my reference in a mix. Again, depends on the tone you're used to and what you're looking for. I'm willing to bet that if I stopped using the Baers and switched to the MAS, in some number of gigs I'd be perfectly happy. But I'm not very patient

I had a bass player buddy of mine come into town and sit in for a tune at a recent gig. He gave me a post-mortem on the show and my sound (this was running a single Baer with Monique). His take was that for much of what I was trying to do - the really articulate comping and well defined finger style lines, the rig was damn near perfect. For slap he thought it thinned out a bit and was lacking some beef. I think that's one area where the MAS cabs excel in that they won't really thin out when you lean into them. Then again, I don't find it really getting thin, it just isn't as thick down low as my buddy liked.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

Yes---with appreciation and respect to Roger---his cab was a bit of the impetus for the Flex design. I choose to learn from critics rather than gloating in positive responses.

My weakness is that while having really good ears, like most, I'm the strongest within the parameters of my particular taste. That's one of the reasons I value guys like Nostatic and JGR. Nostatic wants (if I understand correctly) lots of clarity without over-emphasis in the upper bass/lower midrange. And a nice rising midrange that allows you to cut through the mix without sounding wanky. (it's funny---without knowing I chose the same mid driver as Roger)With the Flex cabs I wanted to reach that goal and at the same time be able to get the sound in my head. (much like Nomatic's in the vid.)

The emphasis in the upper bass/lower mids is something that we have taken very seriously and have tirelessly worked on improving. We have made numerous changes to flatten and smooth the entire mid-bass to upper-bass to lower midrange. I defer to recent posts by Radbass to illustrate the differences between previous cabs(prior to a few weeks ago) and the current cabs.

JGR is a no-apologizes rocker. He knows exactly the sound he wants to get and can articulate it. I don't know squat about a great rock tone. But he does. That was another parameter I was shooting for with the Flex cabs.

In comparing the 210Flex to other cabs I feel compelled to mention that the Flex is going to open up as the size of the room increases. They can overload a smaller room if you crank it.If one is comparing cab--to cab---the sound on the gig was what I was shooting for.

A note to the mods--and those reporting to the mods---none of the above comments were "patting myself on the back" or saying anything about the merits of my cabs. I stated what I was shooting for---not what was achieved and all comments were in response or elaborating on previous comments.

 

[nutdog]

I can empathize with the inability to articulate tonal preference. I know what I like when I hear it. I have two problems.

1. What I like varies . What's been working for a while suddenly doesn't. I don't change tone song to song for the most part. But my tastes definitely evolve over time.
   
2. Regardless of the tone, I want what I hear to be what everyone else hears. I have basked in my own magnificence only to realize after stepping a few feet away that everyone else was missing out.

 

[mntngrown]

That's a totally different matter on what IMO the whole discussion isn't about.

Let me try to recall... Who started this thread. What was the focus of the discussion for the many posts until the "show me the measurements" people arrived. Oh yeah, bass players discussing how a new cab project was being adopted by the likes of Mike, Leland and Duke. Then some more seasoned pro players started getting them, and reporting positive results. Then some players of my stature, local bar and party and private event players started reporting positive results by actually using the cabs. Using them where other cabs did not sound nearly as good, or could not improve a difficult room.
I think what the whole discussion is or isn't about has been clear with the exception of a transient sniper, (or is it serial cereal pisser).
I am pleased that the one poster most of us don't even legitimize with a response, has now seen the patents and BG mag numbers, and has concluded nothing special is going on with BigE. He can now move on to another target to concour. Craigslist rants and raves maybe.

 

[nostatic]

Nostatic wants (if I understand correctly) lots of clarity without over-emphasis in the upper bass/lower midrange. And a nice rising midrange that allows you to cut through the mix without sounding wanky. (it's funny---without knowing I chose the same mid driver as Roger)With the Flex cabs I wanted to reach that goal and at the same time be able to get the sound in my head. (much like Nomatic's in the vid.)

Yup, spot-on. Nomatic's video was when I finally "got it" wrt the design philosophies. I watched that video and said, "that sounds great - but it isn't the tone I'm going for." Another part of my equation is trying to deal with volume wars. I'm in everything from a trio playing background jazz to a 10-piece with horns doing Steely Dan tunes to casuals where I've got multiple guitars. I am always trying to turn down to try and manage stage volume, and having a really articulate mid allows me to do that. The house can do whatever they want with the sound (and likely will anyway), but for what I'm hearing, I need my mids. The trick is having it not fight with keys and/or guitar and not having it strident. Most of the 2-way bass cabs with a tweeter tend to either have a hole in the upper mids or they get too edgy. One thing I really like about the MAS cabs is they don't get nasty through the mids and highs. If anything they are a bit too polite for me, but I believe that's where the Flex comes in.

Of course the other way I deal with avoiding mid conflicts is that I got rid of keys and guitar from my band

 

[Arjank]

Let me try to recall... Who started this thread. What was the focus of the discussion for the many posts until the "show me the measurements" people arrived.

Maybe you didn't understand what I meant (maybe i didn't explain myself clear enough, english is not my native language). With the whole discussion I meant the discussion about the claims that have been done and the "explanation" of the MVW technology. That's also the reason why there was a call for measurements, every critic would have asked for those.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

As a manufacturer in this and other fields, I am not at all intimidated by a competing product whose claims are exaggerated, hyped, overstated, snake-oil, fantasy, whatever. If that's all a competitor brings to the fight, I'm not scared. Hype has a short shelf-life.

If a competitor were to start beating me at my own game, I would revise my products and/or develop new products that were aimed at different niches. I revised all of my Thunderchild cabs largely in response to Mike. I have recently introduced several new models that are aimed at areas where Mike hasn't really gone yet, and those have been 100% in response to what he's doing. During this time I also developed several other models that will not be going into production - but I put just as much R&D into them as the others.

That's a lot more time and money and energy than I would ever begin to expend to compete against hype. And since I've had a couple of Mike's cabs in house, and am licensed to use the same technology in the home audio market, I have pretty good insight into what he brings to the fight. There's a reason why I put on my brown trousers to do battle with Mike.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

Yup, spot-on. Nomatic's video was when I finally "got it" wrt the design philosophies.

One thing---the most fun thing for me lately has been really taking seriously various players sonic needs. I've become a voicing maniac. I defer to Steve and Duke a lot as far as the starting points with crossovers but I obsess with changing values to get the voicing I'm reaching for.

The sound you heard on the vid was one of the sounds I was shooting for . Actually---the other sounds I was shooting for was what I perceived you sonic goals--and then someone like JGR's goal for a rock cabinet. I don't know if I succeeded but I've learned that ---just like in playing music---there is a difference between a craftsman and an artist. It's not that difficult to get your personal idea of a sound---but to try to understand and actualize someone else's aesthetic---that's where the artistry comes in.

Pete Skjold is like that. He's like the "wood whisperer".

 

[mntngrown]

As a manufacturer in this and other fields, I am not at all intimidated by a competing product whose claims are exaggerated, hyped, overstated, snake-oil, fantasy, whatever. If that's all a competitor brings to the fight, I'm not scared. Hype has a short shelf-life.

If a competitor were to start beating me at my own game, I would revise my products and/or develop new products that were aimed at different niches. I revised all of my Thunderchild cabs largely in response to Mike. I have recently introduced several new models that are aimed at areas where Mike hasn't really gone yet, and those have been 100% in response to what he's doing. During this time I also developed several other models that will not be going into production - but I put just as much R&D into them as the others.

That's a lot more time and money and energy that I would ever begin to expend to compete against hype. And since I've had a couple of Mike's cabs in house, and am licensed to use the same technology in the home audio market, I have pretty good insight into what he brings to the fight. There's reason why I put on my brown trousers to do battle with Mike.

That is the most sage post I have read in years on this site.
By the way I went back to the home page to get the philosophy statement right. "Uniting the low end since 1968". It's a bass player's site. Not a cab builder's or audiophiles site. You don't see Roger Baer coming on this thread saying "there is no there there".
Thank you for your civility Arjank , but your repetitive posts re measurements, and your recent one about just adding something to you Piccolo cab and statements that you have already built something almost like this mean little or nothing to me, a bass player, and I would venture to say to most bass players on this site. 99.9 percent of everyone on this site. Please start your own thread about your cabs. If I hear one and it speaks to me I will report glowing comments in your thread. I have heard Duke's Thunderchild cabs. I have nothing but praise for them. And I have nothing but praise for Greenboy's cabs. Again this is a bass players helping bass players website. Can we get back on bass players impressions please. You may be well meaning, but this is a bunch of guys and gals hoping to enhance their live and studio performance.
When I go to the Fender Super bassman 300 thread, one of which I own and love, I do not see, nor expect to see the builder of the Reeves or Peavey tube amps saying the Fender is inferior or asking them to prove any of their website claims. Move on to a speaker building site please.

 

[kesslari]

There's a reason why I put on my brown trousers to do battle with Mike.

Well played, Captian Duke, well played.

 

[tombowlus]

Nice review, Mr. Bowlus. In regard to the AE210 comparison, can you address the difference (or lack thereof) in the way the flex and the bergs carry the room? Not in their tonal differences but in how their respective tones are maintained throughout the venue. I'm most interested in the idea that the MAS cabs are less susceptible to node problems and sound the same all over.

I did my 210Flex and AE210 comparison in a small room, only, so I was not able to make a meaningful comparison along these lines. However, the one gig report that I mentioned in the review was in a room with terrible "node problems," and the Mesa/MAS rig did exceptionally well in that room.

 

[tombowlus]

Pete Skjold is like that. He's like the "wood whisperer".

+1 I totally agree.

 

[mntngrown]

One thing---the most fun thing for me lately has been really taking seriously various players sonic needs. I've become a voicing maniac. I defer to Steve and Duke a lot as far as the starting points with crossovers but I obsess with changing values to get the voicing I'm reaching for.

The sound you heard on the vid was one of the sounds I was shooting for . Actually---the other sounds I was shooting for was what I perceived you sonic goals--and then someone like JGR's goal for a rock cabinet. I don't know if I succeeded but I've learned that ---just like in playing music---there is a difference between a craftsman and an artist. It's not that difficult to get your personal idea of a sound---but to try to understand and actualize someone else's aesthetic---that's where the artistry comes in.

Pete Skjold is like that. He's like the "wood whisperer".

A task only fulfilled by a diverse lineup of products or possibly a "flexible" product. These are however very accommodating cabs. I am just a pocket player in his 60's who admires Tommy Shannon Johnny B Gayden Duck Dunn and going back Carl Radle and even further back the guys behind Otis Rush and the 3 Kings. So how do you build a one size fits all cab for Nostatic and a throwback like me. Tough job but the flex cabs might do it. I just play tubes or the svt7pro through the Mas48 and soon the 46 for smaller gigs. These cabs are very transparent and excellent vehicles for the delivery of my/your fingers and amp of choice.

 

[nutdog]

I did my 210Flex and AE210 comparison in a small room, only, so I was not able to make a meaningful comparison along these lines. However, the one gig report that I mentioned in the review was in a room with terrible "node problems," and the Mesa/MAS rig did exceptionally well in that room.

Thanks.

 

[mntngrown]

Hey m---y and arjank what cabs do you gig, and why are they better than these, now that you have played the BigE. Oh that's right you have not played them or heard them played by gigging bassists. Sorry I forgot. LOL This is a bass players site where member bass players talk about Jamerson or Jaco or the latest amp Reeves, or Superbassman or whatever, and try to help their fellow players find quality gear. Not try to dismiss gear they have not played through or heard someone else play. Give it a rest. Those of us seeking quality gear to play, or play through could give a rat's posterior what you think.
If you even play bass step up and tell us where you have been gigging and what gear worked great there. Maybe in your own thread.

 

[mntngrown]

*Sigh*

Dear naysayers: I am more than willing to subject my cabinets to scrutiny. Please, PM me if you have proper test equipment and facilities at your disposal and we'll go from there.

Frankly, I bought my Big E's wondering about the validity of the claims. While I haven't quantitatively measured anything, I can tell you qualitatively that they are indeed different from any other set of speakers I have experienced in my lifetime. Whatever you want to call the acoustic phenomenon that goes on with using these cabs doesn't matter to me. But you'll be hard pressed to convince me that my ears are wrong from your PC across the internet without having experienced them yourself.

Again, my challenge is this: If you have the test gear, let's use it. Otherwise it's just another internet pissing contest that I'll excuse myself from.

Exactly my experience too. And many others. I tire of the nattering naybobs of negativeism. They offer nothing to me as a gigging bassist looking for the best gear. da monkey or da other guy should try to sell me a better cab that they are making and I will make an informed choice. Ha

 

[mntngrown]

I posted earlier in this or one of the previous threads. My comparison was the first or second-generation 46 and most recently the 45/110 combo. My general take is that those MAS cabs have more low-mid push and thickness whereas the Baers are more about mid and upper-mid articulation with some edge (reminiscent of the AE210s, but without the occasional harshness those cabs can get). When I hear/see recordings of the guys who dig Mike's cabs, I get why they dig them, and why they aren't quite my thing as I tend to prefer a bit less low-mid content, and I really like to hear the upper-mids speak. Truth be told with the right head you can eq either cab in either direction but in a perfect world I want my head running flat and getting "my sound" with the eq being used to deal with a room or a bass change.

I haven't tried the Flex, and per Mike the Baer sound can be dialed in, at least fairly close. In part, my feedback helped push Mike a bit in the cab design to give some different colors. I will likely have one of the modular Flexes to test at some point. While I dig the sound of my Baers, no cab is perfect. I'd love to have something with a bit less physical depth (loved the AE210s and the 46 in that regard), and no tolex, and with that mid presence that I like and still enough low end push to get people dancing.

This is a member I totally respect and admire for his comedic grasp and his bass chops. (better than mine) So when a regular gigging bassist in LA says these cabs don't quite get it (so far), for him verses his Baer or whatever cab, or after he tries the Flex cabs he will repost, I accept with total informed appreciation. The MASBigE are not everyones cab. Thank goodness. I don't want to live in a one fits all society. For what it is worth he is an accomplished jazz/pop player who can do justice to jazz tunes that I could not do justice too if I tried.
So Mike is interested in tweaking cab voicings for nostatic because he cares what his accomplished interested players think. Try calling A---g or F---er and telli them they would be best served by tweaking their voicings for this or that niche audience HA!

 

[makohund]

Whoah, nellie.

Sorry, but playing the "do you even play/gig bass" card ain't exactly solid ground, either. (Duke doesn't, and so what if he doesn't?) And this *is* the amps section, where gear talk happens, and so does speaker design and all matters acoustic... the science of making things heard, which is what an amp does.

FWIW, arjank ain't the serial/cereal whizzer I was speaking of earlier. and there's nothing wrong with a little debate. If he's wrong about his thoughts on what the design does and how it works, what better place for the creators to issue a rebuttal?

Yeah, it's called talkbass, and I'm here for talk. But I'm not very interested in lots of talk about how awesome something is, even if it *is* awesome, and even if I already know it because I own (or have at least heard) it. I like to know how things tick. And if this really is some sort of acoustic breakthrough... fantastic. I want to know all about it. I expect to see some talk about it, and that includes debate over anything that seems to defy current boundaries or break new ground in a field where that seldom happens.

 

[christw]

Totally fair. I have no proper way to describe what's going on, convey it in a video/audio sample, or to measure it. That's why I'm hoping someone chimes in who can try to quantify what is different about these cabs and the way sound is perceived when using them 'cause something neat is going on.