- Jun 29, 2006
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- 3,217
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- President, CEO, CFO, CIO, Chief Engineer, Technician, Janitor - Reiner Amplification
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Big E Speakers pt 3
- Thread starter john turner
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In my opinion, if you think the measurements tell the whole story then you do not know what the story is.
The benefits claimed for these speakers were neither verified not refuted by the measurements reported. This is not a slight on the BGM crew because they performed their standard suite of tests on the cabinet as they do on every one they review and we can not expect anything different for this one.
To summarize since you have obviously missed the point, the claims made about this cabinet are not heard at one meter from a one watt signal so we can not expect measurements taken under those conditions to address them.
I can believe that(1mtr)for the MVW's that have the ports at the back of the cabinet (I can simulate the time delay in AJhorn and what that does to the sum of both signals, I've done that several times for horn-reflex cabinets that have the port at the back).
But that the "vortex" only starts to happen at more input is a bit strange to me.
At least Tom Bowlus should be able to measure with 1watt and with 10watts(28.3 volts) to see if the claims are real. If there is more then a 10dB increase, say 13dB, then we have something that proves the claim.
Edit: One thing that comes to mind about the claim of the increased output of the "vortex" when you add more amp power is the following. The "vortex" starts to "exponentially" increase it's output, the drivers won't. Thus, what happens when (the claim is true) is that the frequency response of the whole systems alters with different power inputs(especially if the MVW is also used up to 4khz)...... Allthough this happens with all designs (more or less) due to power compression / mechanical and electric losses, it should be a greater isssue with the MWV (if the claim is true).
Just analysing the claim...
Thanks BGM for the review. Although empirical data may shed light on the performance of the MVW design, unfortunately the measurements provided failed to test the extraordinary claims made by the designers, notably the supposed increase in sensitivity at higher input levels.
Also, while I was interested in reading a thorough technical explanation from the designers, I found the second article extremely light on facts and rife with undefined techno-jargon. In short, there was little substantive information actually provided.
FWIW, I'm still interested to hear some examples of the design for myself.
Also, while I was interested in reading a thorough technical explanation from the designers, I found the second article extremely light on facts and rife with undefined techno-jargon. In short, there was little substantive information actually provided.
FWIW, I'm still interested to hear some examples of the design for myself.
I agree. It seems to me that it's like seeing the histogram of an image, then claiming to know what the image will look like because you've seen other images that use the same proportion of colors, while adamantly denying the possibility that someone could do something new with the colors because you haven't seen it done before.
As a great philosopher once said:
"Without deviation from the norm progress is not possible"
An X-ray provides a poor representation of soft tissue. Yet doctors still use X-rays to diagnose pneumonia, even though the finest details are not visible. Are doctors unwise to use such an "inferior"image to make a professional medical diagnosis? Similarly, if one is intimately familiar with the principles of acoustics, one can discern certain tell-tale indications which would be unnoticed by the layperson. Somehow, the phrase "I want to believe!" comes to mind in this thread. I'd rather see hard evidence before I'm convinced than be credulous....
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
― Carl Sagan
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
― Carl Sagan
Drivers composed of different cone material (IMO, especially HF drivers) can be produced that have identical frequency response measurements, but sound totally different.
That alone means that measurements are not going to tell the WHOLE story.
If & when Big E decides they have the time & money to develop & run whatever tests are being asked of them by the bystander critics, it would be interesting, but I think they are currently too busy developing new products & building cabs to sell to have the time to do so & I don't blame them since that is how to succeed in business.
Pudding content analysis might be interesting to some, but if it is the best tasting pudding on the market (for some) that's what is really important to the consumer.
That alone means that measurements are not going to tell the WHOLE story.
If & when Big E decides they have the time & money to develop & run whatever tests are being asked of them by the bystander critics, it would be interesting, but I think they are currently too busy developing new products & building cabs to sell to have the time to do so & I don't blame them since that is how to succeed in business.
Pudding content analysis might be interesting to some, but if it is the best tasting pudding on the market (for some) that's what is really important to the consumer.
- Apr 29, 2003
- 9,081
- 9,805
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- Contributor- Bass Musician Magazine | Marketing Manager- Trickfish Amplification
There is value in simulation and calculation, but it doesn't tell the whole story, especially in a creative endeavor where humans are involved. To live by math alone in this world is missing something - unless the theoretical is in fact your end game. And for some here, it apparently is. And that's...ok.
Just in the first application
"20 The manipulated vortex waveguide loudspeaker may aid the hearing impaired through non-conventional auditory stimulation."
At first when I read this, I honestly felt sick. How can they possibly claim any medial benefits without doing a medical study. It should not even be hinted at without some clinical, evidence based, studies.
As some here "may" say it it could be true, What's the harm? It could also lead to somebody to self treat and loose yet more hearing. Very smart people can lead themselves down a path causing more harm than good. Steve Jobs is prime example as he tried several non-proven methods to cure his cancer and had regrets. (Many articles, here's one: Invalid Link Removed)
This rings of "Snake Oil"
For those who subscribe to "not all you hear an be measured". For human perception and A double blind test would prove it. In fact a clinical study is usually a double blind study.
Read Arjank post to find out what these cabinets actually are. IMHO The controversy is over.
To me--the" I want to believe" is clearly addressed by the many seasoned players that have judged the performance of these cabs in context as well as guys like Duke LeJeaune---again hearing them in person. His support in saying that these speakers do what we claim---actually negatively affects his business as he is competing in the same market.
To me, the "extraordinary evidence" has been addressed by anyone that has tried these cabs.Experiential evidence--not theoretical evidence.
While not as technologically knowledgeable as some---I do know a little. I've seen so many speakers that looked nearly identical on paper but sounded dramatically different in the same context.
Again--the skeptics and naysayers have never heard them. I don't think that anyone that has heard them has said anything negative or anything to contradict these claims.
- Dec 21, 2007
- 15,233
- 45,134
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- Lark in the Morning Instructional Videos; Audix Microphones
And from a player's perspective, to an extent the "how" doesn't matter.
I use technologies that I don't fully understand pretty regularly.
I'd speculate that most people on this forum don't understand the details of how the internet works. But are more than happy to use it.
And we have lots of examples of "things that worked but were poorly explained for years, until someone figured out a more accurate representation of how it actually works".
I'm OK with that. Maybe I lack the hubris to believe that if I don't understand it in detail, it can't possibly work.
I use technologies that I don't fully understand pretty regularly.
I'd speculate that most people on this forum don't understand the details of how the internet works. But are more than happy to use it.
And we have lots of examples of "things that worked but were poorly explained for years, until someone figured out a more accurate representation of how it actually works".
I'm OK with that. Maybe I lack the hubris to believe that if I don't understand it in detail, it can't possibly work.
- Dec 21, 2007
- 15,233
- 45,134
- Disclosures
- Lark in the Morning Instructional Videos; Audix Microphones
Thomas Ewers
Commercial User
Apparently you do not understand the concept of protecting intellectual property. This topic is not pertinent to the bass market.
+1 The only test equipment I use and rely on are the funny looking things on both sides of my head which still function very well. I call 'em ears.
a) do you know what patents are for and why they are written the way they are?
b) double-blind studies are moot because in the end the player doesn't play that way. The sonic end result is only a part of the playing experience equation and one cannot double-blind out the other factors. People here love to try to apply "science" to this but there are limits.
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