Big E Speakers pt 3

[Mike Arnopol]

Tom, thnx for the impedance plot....finally. Looks like a helmholzresonator (bass-reflex). So the loading on the driver is the same as a normal ported cab. The horns/flared ports should work the same as the horn-reflex cabinets I've build(that's what I told more then a year ago...). You also see the dip starting at 200hz....that's an anomaly of such typ of design, my horn-reflex cabs have that too. This is caused by the standing wave in the horn/port and probably also due to the signals of the port and driver being out of phase. Can simulate that in AJhorn (see simulations of my piccolo 8, similar anomaly http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/piccolo8-cab-build-piccolo-bass-1010311/ )

For now, this is my conclusion of the MVW.



Edit: just saw the drawing of the MVW, the inner devider makes it different from a normal horn-reflex, the impedance plot though shows the loading on the driver is similar to bassreflex and doesn't have any connection with a horn enclosure. And that plot is important to tell what's going on. That devider won't do much for the lower frequencies, it'll probably act as as an acoustic low-pass filter for the next chamber.

here, a quick-'n-dirty smulation in AJhorn of the 3010LF in a horn-reflex cab, looking familiar? I'll do a sim again once I have AJhorn 6.0

I'll have to say ---even if you look at the cross section and surmise as to it's behavior ---it would be wrong. Duke looked at it (he has a lot of experience in horn, reflex, and transmission lines) and thought that it was some a very failed attempt at some weird sort of transmission line. He said it couldn't work---until he heard it.

Any design you can surmise won't allow doubling of the driver output when compared to reflex from 35 to 4khz. And anyone that has tried one can tell you that it does exactly that.

 

[Arjank]

I'll have to say ---even if you look at the cross section and surmise as to it's behavior ---it would be wrong. Duke looked at it (he has a lot of experience in horn, reflex, and transmission lines) and thought that it was some a very failed attempt at some weird sort of transmission line. He said it couldn't work---until he heard it..

It certainly is not a weird transmissionline, then the impedance would look a bit different ( a simulation of the 3010LF as a 1.5mtr long Transmission line comes close, but the gap above 200hz will be deeper but not as broad)
The 1st that came into mind when I saw the impedance and frequency response was a horn-reflex. The simulation in AJhorn shows it is, that's the mathematical model for what it does in the low-end.

Any design you can surmise won't allow doubling of the driver output when compared to reflex from 35 to 4khz. And anyone that has tried one can tell you that it does exactly that.

doubling is 3dB, when I do simulations of a horn-reflex they show me about 2dB more output in the useable bandwidth compared to a normal ported box. Again, similar behavior.

Here the 3010LF simulated as ported(red), horn-reflex(black) and rearloaded horn(purple).

 

[radbass]

I just wanted to post my impressions of the MAS 4x6 with and without the pressure regulator [MinE?], that I posted on the fanclub sight. At the MAS industrial complex test facility we ran the ultra-sophisticated MAS proprietary tone generator [Mike playing his Roscoe] through A Puma 900, a Monique, a Demeter Minnie, and a GK 800 MBF. The MAS cabs seem to make every bass and amp you play through them sound better than any other cabs I've heard, but the 4x6 and the 4x5 have a really elegant sound. The 4x6 also gets really loud and goes really low with the magical BigE empty keg dispersion and reduced node excitement that lets you hear yourself and everything else better. The regulator added to the cab seems to add clarity and definition to lower mids and upper bass . The notes seem to be more even and still have weight. Mike showed me the device before I heard it and I was sure it couldn' make any difference, but the difference is noticeable. I was kidding about the test facility [Mike's front room], but seriously IMO talk bass is about bass players and their gear and while I love hearing from designers about the technical aspects,the bottom line is" Does this cabinet make me want to play?" Steve and Tom at BigE have used sophisticated test equipment as developement tools, and unusually in this business not sales tools, and I'm sure proper tools make developement easier and allow them to refine their work, but to have a bass player with Mike's playing ablity and educated ear developing these cabs has been instrumental in making them sound as good as they do. All the testing can help develop a cab and to a certain extent justify it's sound, but only a bass player can tell you if a cab makes him happy.

 

[Arjank]

but seriously IMO talk bass is about bass players and their gear and while I love hearing from designers about the technical aspects,the bottom line is" Does this cabinet make me want to play?"

Did someone ever hear me say the cabs from Mike or BigE will not sound good? No
Of course a cab has to make a player want to play and everybody has his own "criteria" that are important to him/her regarding the sound.
My comments are solely on what the MVW is, and on the matter if it is something completely new, IMO it isn't, at least not in what it does in the low end. Thnx to Tom Bowlus we have some measurements to draw conclusions from, this combined with my simulations tells me about it's physical behavior.

If you(TB readers) wanna take my 2 cents, here it is, if you don't, fine

 

[radbass]

Sorry Arjank, I didn't mean to offend you. I respect your knowledge of speaker design and I really enjoy reading your posts. It seems to me you may have come closest to explaining these cabs, but you haven't nailed it yet. There is more to it. Thanks for reminding me to thank Tom Bowlus and his guys for having the most comprehensive bass equipment reviews of any current publication.

 

[Stephen Regier]

For now, this is my conclusion of the MVW.

Edit: just saw the drawing of the MVW, the inner devider makes it different from a normal horn-reflex, the impedance plot though shows the loading on the driver is similar to bassreflex and doesn't have any connection with a horn enclosure. And that plot is important to tell what's going on. That devider won't do much for the lower frequencies, it'll probably act as as an acoustic low-pass filter for the next chamber.

Mr. Arjank,
Thank you for your continued interest in our technology. I have a few inquiries requarding your seemingly rapid grasp of the MVW Loudspeaker Alignment that I wish to explore with you. In the interest of clarity and method let's be precise and deliberate.

Let's get started:

Would you please clarify to which panel you are referring when you make reference to "the inner devider"? The panels are numbered in the illustration.

 

[seamonkey]

Tom, thnx for the impedance plot....finally. Looks like a helmholzresonator (bass-reflex). So the loading on the driver is the same as a normal ported cab. The horns/flared ports should work the same as the horn-reflex cabinets I've build(that's what I told more then a year ago...). You also see the dip starting at 200hz....that's an anomaly of such typ of design, my horn-reflex cabs have that too. This is caused by the standing wave in the horn/port and probably also due to the signals of the port and driver being out of phase. Can simulate that in AJhorn (see simulations of my piccolo 8, similar anomaly http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/piccolo8-cab-build-piccolo-bass-1010311/ )

For now, this is my conclusion of the MVW.

Edit: just saw the drawing of the MVW, the inner devider makes it different from a normal horn-reflex, the impedance plot though shows the loading on the driver is similar to bassreflex and doesn't have any connection with a horn enclosure. And that plot is important to tell what's going on. That devider won't do much for the lower frequencies, it'll probably act as as an acoustic low-pass filter for the next chamber.

here, a quick-'n-dirty smulation in AJhorn of the 3010LF in a horn-reflex cab, looking familiar? I'll do a sim again once I have AJhorn 6.0

Thanks Arjank, excellent summary. FWIW I agree with your conclusions.

Sure Tom's words review means something, but the measurements are just tell the whole story. The extra marketing claims around these are not holding up in the measurements. There's nothing extraordinary going on here.

Tom put a special disclaimer that these were measured at 1w, 1m - but he should do the same for any and all cabinet reviews he's going to do. I'm sure many manufacturers are going to claim 1w, 1m does not reflect real world performance. Many FOH have gone to 28.3V at 10m, maybe BGM should investigate?

Yours or other similar designs, that can take the same drivers and get so much more out of them, with better functionality, and cost less. People should take a look.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

OOH---the gang's all here!

 

[tombowlus]

Many FOH have gone to 28.3V at 10m, maybe BGM should investigate?

We have looked into numerous other testing configurations, including the 10m measurements, but given our current testing equipment (Audiomatica Clio for cabs, and Audio Precision for amps) and the available test environments, we don't look to change anything any time soon.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

Yours or other similar designs, that can take the same drivers and get so much more out of them, with better functionality, and cost less. People should take a look.

This from someone that has never heard them---he hasn't heard Arjank's either--but he KNOWS that they sound better!

And thanks again to BGM for fair and honest reviews and raising the bar for bass publications!

 

[Arjank]

Let's get started:

Would you please clarify to which panel you are referring when you make reference to "the inner devider"? The panels are numbered in the illustration.

Hi Stephen,

It's panel nr 2

 

[Arjank]

This from someone that has never heard them---he hasn't heard Arjank's either--but he KNOWS that they sound better!

That's indeed a hasty conclusion.

Beside that, Mike, Stephen, Tom, Duke, the whole BigE crew. Don' get me wrong, I really believe your cabinets will sound great. I explained earlier on in the BigE thread what makes me coming back posting comments.

 

[seamonkey]

We have looked into numerous other testing configurations, including the 10m measurements, but given our current testing equipment (Audiomatica Clio for cabs, and Audio Precision for amps) and the available test environments, we don't look to change anything any time soon.

1W, 1M is fine, most all the 10m measurements scale straight up to this. It's rare to be different. It's just accurate to keep the voltage stable on the load during testing.

IMHO - No "special" disclaimer is needed for your measurements in your reviews.

 

[tombowlus]

IMHO - No "special" disclaimer is needed for your measurements in your reviews.

Understood, and I would tend to agree. However, I knew that Mike would be making a comment in the manufacturer's response section along these lines, and I wanted to explain our position just a bit.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

Magnificent review Tom, that may be the most thorough bass cab review I've read. Reading between the multitude of lines, I'm thinking you wouldn't have wanted to spend so much time and energy talking about something that you didn't really dig.

Between Tom Bowlus and Jake Wolf, we have the two of the best qualified and heaviest hitters in the bass gear review business - competitors I suppose - coming to the same conclusions. Congratulations, Mike and Steve and Tom Ewers!

 

[seamonkey]

That's indeed a hasty conclusion.

Beside that, Mike, Stephen, Tom, Duke, the whole BigE crew. Don' get me wrong, I really believe your cabinets will sound great. I explained earlier on in the BigE thread what makes me coming back posting comments.

There's no reason to try every cabinet in the world. The measurements tell me enough that there's nothing extraordinary going on here. The measurements are important enough the BGM publishes them.

 

[tombowlus]

Magnificent review Tom, that may be the most thorough bass cab review I've read. Reading between the multitude of lines, I'm thinking you wouldn't have wanted to spend so much time and energy talking about something that you didn't really dig.

Thank you, sir! And yes, I dig it a lot!

 

[Arjank]

The measurements tell me enough that there's nothing extraordinary going on here.

Include the simulation I did, for me that's one of the most important aspects. The impedance plot is also very important, that's why I asked for it a long, long time.

 

[kesslari]

Seamonkey won't be buying a cabinet. Film at 11.
"Nothing special going on here" - wonder why the review was so positive. And why so many players dig these cabinets. Clearly, we don't spend enough time sitting at the computer complaining about our hemorrhoids.

 

[Mark Sacchetti]

I've used my MAS 46 and ime it's the best sounding cab in live battle conditions that I've ever played or owned. Nothing else sounds and feels like it does. I've sold off all my other cabs after using it. I'm just a discerning player, not even a pro player, but I know what I can hear and feel. The 46 is unlike anything I've used. It's not the only way to build a bass cab, but boy there's something special going on.