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Big E Speakers pt 3

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#81
DirtPoorRobins said:
What! No way!

So today at rehearsal I put the 45 right on top of the sub and angled it up just a tad. I thought I'd give it a try even though during my own practicing it was too "thick" for my tonal goals, I liked it up on the stick better. Anyways, it was absolutely killing in the mix! I also ran the eq different, I've been notching out about 350hz because it cleans it up and lets the highs out better. Today I ran it flat with just a little on board bass boost and it was amazing. I finally get what mike is talking about when he says RNB players love these things. Those low mids are special in these cabs, I felt and heard clarity in the low end like no other. When I play by myself it seems like the low mids would be a trouble maker, but then for some reason, when your playing in the mix, they help you hear yourself better, strange. I knew I was onto something when the horn players came up to me and asked what I did different today and if I turned up because they could hear me a lot better now, but all did was put the cab down, and not mess with the mids. The sound pounds you in the chest and those low lines just pop right out. So I've found my two sounds for this setup, my full loud rock band sound (cabs on top of each other, with just a touch bass boost) and my pretty solo sound (which is up on a stick, crossover on top, -2db, cut around 350hz, boost highs, absolutely beautiful crystal highs with that setup)
Click to expand...
This is an important observation I think. When you listen to most rock and roll in the 50's it's upright bass. When Fender came out with the electric bass he was trying to emulate the upright bass sound. Hence the mute foam.

It was interesting---a guy on the DB side did some RTA measurements of his upright unamplified. Not a whole lot under 100hz but a big rising peak starting at about 150hz to about 300 hz with a peak at about 225. (or so)

People always note that a pizz upright has a lot more "thump" than an electric bass. That thump and pitch definition are in the upper bass/lower midrange.

I'm not saying that an electric bass has to emulate the upright sound----I'm just saying that the upper bass/lower mid component is important as far as hearing yourself. A lot of guys like cabs that are accentuated in the mids (500 to 2k). They claim that they can hear themselves cut through the mix better. Which is true---you hear some of the attack and upper partials of the pitch---you can hear what you're doing.

I would rather get my pitch cues from the range of the bass more closely associated with pitch and get my rhythmic cues from the part that provides the "thump"---not as much from the mids . The mids are very important but I want to feel myself propelling the group. And it's the "thump" portion that provides that. Even with a "piano string" tone there still is that element---just not nearly as pronounced as in R&B and funk. Low bass doesn't provide that same thump---there is a rhythmic component that has to start and stop correctly---if not it can obscure anything happening in the next few octaves above.

You can definitely have too much upper bass/low mids----it can put a blanket over what's occurring in the next few octaves above that---not a good thing. The early 46's had too much there---they obscured the mids as a result.

I think that Dirt Poor found that those low mids gave more rhythmic power that was obviously noticed by other players.

I know the feeling---at home you think--maybe too much low mids. But you get on the gig and everything feels and functions better.
 
#82
Yeah mike, right on. In the mix, it's perfect set flat. For the horn section to notice, it's gotta be good! That's the beauty of a fully para eq, I can dial in my perfect practice tone, then set it flat and it's perfect for the gig. The light bulb has gone off for me finally! Keep it going mike.
 
#83
Considering this is one little 30 lbs. cabinet with no PA support in an absolutely terrible room, I'm pretty happy with where the bass is sitting in the mix. :cool:

Big Band Video

I had an unsolicited compliment from one of the saxes after the gig that he appreciated how "compact" my tone sounds.

Can't wait to add a second cab. :bassist:
 
#84
Mike Arnopol said:
This is an important observation I think. When you listen to most rock and roll in the 50's it's upright bass. When Fender came out with the electric bass he was trying to emulate the upright bass sound. Hence the mute foam.

It was interesting---a guy on the DB side did some RTA measurements of his upright unamplified. Not a whole lot under 100hz but a big rising peak starting at about 150hz to about 300 hz with a peak at about 225. (or so)

People always note that a pizz upright has a lot more "thump" than an electric bass. That thump and pitch definition are in the upper bass/lower midrange.

I'm not saying that an electric bass has to emulate the upright sound----I'm just saying that the upper bass/lower mid component is important as far as hearing yourself. A lot of guys like cabs that are accentuated in the mids (500 to 2k). They claim that they can hear themselves cut through the mix better. Which is true---you hear some of the attack and upper partials of the pitch---you can hear what you're doing.

I would rather get my pitch cues from the range of the bass more closely associated with pitch and get my rhythmic cues from the part that provides the "thump"---not as much from the mids . The mids are very important but I want to feel myself propelling the group. And it's the "thump" portion that provides that. Even with a "piano string" tone there still is that element---just not nearly as pronounced as in R&B and funk. Low bass doesn't provide that same thump---there is a rhythmic component that has to start and stop correctly---if not it can obscure anything happening in the next few octaves above.

You can definitely have too much upper bass/low mids----it can put a blanket over what's occurring in the next few octaves above that---not a good thing. The early 46's had too much there---they obscured the mids as a result.

I think that Dirt Poor found that those low mids gave more rhythmic power that was obviously noticed by other players.

I know the feeling---at home you think--maybe too much low mids. But you get on the gig and everything feels and functions better.
Click to expand...

+1 I agree completely. My challenge has always been finding gear that simultaneously provides an enveloping rhythmic pulse, while enabling me to clearly hear my intonation on DB & fretless electric without introducing ear fatigue for anyone on stage or raising the on-stage noise floor unnecessarily; my holy grail.
 
#85
I wanted to check in a say that I am still really enjoying my 210 Flex! :D

My Fdeck HPF3 showed up today, so I have been playing with that. I didn't notice much of a difference with the streamliner 900 unless I cranked the filter up past the 100 hz range. This didn't surprise me much since I was aware of the nice filtering that Genz had designed into the unit.

NOTE: I only play standard tuned 4 string basses, so other people may have different experiences when using 5 strings and alternate tunings.

The big difference came when using it in front of my GK MB800.:bassist: Even on the lowest setting I could notice a more controlled low end with more headroom. I slowly worked the Freq knob up until I could hear a difference in tone, then backed it off a bit. Huge full tone! Transients from my heavy handed slapping were handled much more gracefully.

I have traded some PMs with Kringle77, and he was curious to see if I could cop an SVT vibe. For this I put the cab in the dark setting with the tweets off, then I brought the high knee of the HPF3 to noon (I am guessing around 100hz). Left the highs, high mids, and bass eq's at noon and boosted the low mids to 9:00. From what I remember of my old fridge, this was pretty darn close to the baked in eq of that cab. Super tight and punchy with a nice low mid push. With the sub lows rolled off my headroom went up and this thing got LOUD! I got some nice paper cone character from the mids, and for the first time pushed them hard enough to get that nice compression from the mid padding circuit. (The safety bulb lit up pretty brightly on a couple notes- High g one the E string).

I had been toying with the idea of a separate power amp, but with the Fdeck HPF3 the MB800 appears to be able to push the 210 near its limits. :cool: The streamliner also gets super loud, but it will only be ran with my Pbasses which is where it shines.


EDIT:

Just ran some recorded music through the 210 Flex………….. I so need some MVW cabs for home!
 
#87
Got a glock blue soul today and what a difference high quality components in an amp
make. The quality of the low end is much better and clearer as you get louder. As the shuttle got louder, the low end got a little blurry where the glock stayed tighter and clearer. It may have been do to the glock being much brighter overall I can't be sure. Anyways, the overall way the amp reacted sounded higher quality, the low end seemed stronger and the speakers seemed to keep up better too. With the shuttle 9.2, when I boosted the low end to match the glock it just didn't sound the same, it wasn't as defined. I have a puma 900 coming in a couple weeks to compare.
 
#89
I loved the Glock but not as much as the Puma with DB. And it's bigger, heavier and not as much power.

But---it sounds glorious on EB. If I could afford it I'd have both. The Puma seemed the best compromise to me.

But I do think that the Glock is better on EB--but not my thing on upright. The Puma is awesome on electric, though.And my favorite amp for upright.And the tone controls are very different but very functional. Hell-if I had the dough I'd get a Reeves. I can't wait to try one of JGR's preamps.

Think I'll get out my Demeter HBP preamp. Man do I like the parametrics.
 
#90
3rdcurve said:
Just ran some recorded music through the 210 Flex………….. I so need some MVW cabs for home!
Click to expand...
That actually surprised me. We designed the Flex's from the ground up to be electric bass cabs.Keep the uber flat response for the hifi pussies! The Flex's are a man's cabinets!

Well it turned out thanks to the insanity of Steve and his cruel insistence of making the cabs even harder to make---they can do both.

Oh---and one other thing---they're GREAT at killing mice. Seriously---ran the 210's loud and voila--no more mice!
 
#91
Mike Arnopol said:
That actually surprised me. We designed the Flex's from the ground up to be electric bass cabs.Keep the uber flat response for the hifi pussies! The Flex's are a man's cabinets!



Well it turned out thanks to the insanity of Steve and his cruel insistence of making the cabs even harder to make---they can do both.



Oh---and one other thing---they're GREAT at killing mice. Seriously---ran the 210's loud and voila--no more mice!
Click to expand...


Mike, this cab is an ANIMAL!
 
#92
Yeah, I'm guessing the glock won't be good for upright, but I'll have to try it anyways. The glock is going to toe the line a little behind the puma in this race based on size/weight/price. So it'll have to be a few points ahead for me to choose it over the puma, it is possible though. Being able to throw your amp in your gig bag, or a pair of cargo pants, is pretty sweet. It's definitely a step up from my previous amps.
 
#94
Mike Arnopol said:
That actually surprised me. We designed the Flex's from the ground up to be electric bass cabs.Keep the uber flat response for the hifi pussies! The Flex's are a man's cabinets!

Well it turned out thanks to the insanity of Steve and his cruel insistence of making the cabs even harder to make---they can do both.

Oh---and one other thing---they're GREAT at killing mice. Seriously---ran the 210's loud and voila--no more mice!
Click to expand...

Build a better mouse trap and...
I am gonna go all out in my basement/ garage with the 48 with no doors open. I like it.
Been giggin the 48 with the super bassman 300. Big fat but still clear and articulate.
I would like to revisit the discussion regarding smaller spaces and these larger cabs. Is there seat of pants rule for room square footage where something like a 48 will just over pressure a small room?
 
#95
Hey mike,

+1 on the reeves. I ended up getting a mesa prodigy, which is completely different from the glock. I still like both for different reasons, but most important my cab likes both. I'm new to the all tube thing, but I really love it. The glock is staying, but the prodigy is my new toy.
 
#97
Bad news, I just tried my new glock blue soul with the 45 and upright and loved it. I know it's not mikes thing on upright, and I understand why, we have very different tonal goals, and the glock has been hitting them very we'll. It has a lot of clarity and is a bright sounding amp, and on upright I can see how some people wouldn't like that, but I love it. For me it just makes my upright song clearly and the relaxed upper mids on the amp help to tame the gank of piezo pickups. Anyways, this is a big e thread, not a glock thread, just thought I would let people know what different amps sound like through these cabs. My guitarist popped his head in and reiterated that this was the bass bass rig he has ever heard. :)
 
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