No, that's not the issue. Read clearly. You stated the following: "I felt that rhythm section. Its just not the same." When, in fact, the rhythm section was EXACTLY THE SAME on the Heaven and Hell album with Dio.
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Big Geezer Butler fan
- Thread starter pfox14
- Start date
No, that's not the issue. Read clearly. You stated the following: "I felt that rhythm section. Its just not the same." When, in fact, the rhythm section was EXACTLY THE SAME on the Heaven and Hell album with Dio.
Still wasn't the same. Dio didn't write the same kinds of songs, nor did he sing the same, and really, if I hadn't known it was the same rhythm section, I doubt I'd have ever figured out it was Sabbath.
And really, I liked "Neon Nights" and "The Mob Rules," but other than that, I'll take Ozzy-era Sabbath any day.
This.
Give me the original line-up, or just don't bother me at all.
Sabbath is Butler, Ward, Iommi and Osbourne.
So what? They certainly did not sound the same, as a couple of people have already pointed out. So what is the "issue" with my opinion? Are you mad because, despite Ward's presence, I don't really like Heaven and Hell? Evidently I am not the only one who noticed a difference. I apologize for my inconsistency on the single album. I can see that it has upset you, but I'm afraid I won't change my mind.
I believe I read in Tony Iommi's book that they made efforts to update their whole sound after Ozzy left, but I could be mistaken.
I also prefer Ozzy Sabbath. While I wouldn't say Dio made it a hair metal band, I do think the dynamics changed entirely. Dio seemed toake the band more radio friendly with more standard song structures. Geezer's chops were still great, but more caged to my ears. With Ozzy, the entire band seemed more open and free stylistically.
I like them both, but but as different bands. If one must compare Ozzy Sabbath to Dio Sabbath, it is probably only fair to select the albums closest to the switchover. Technical Exctacy and Never Say Die vs. Heaven And Hell and Mob Rules. Sabbath has had a few periods when they weren't all that interesting. That includes time with Osborne, Dio, Gillian, and the other 3 or 4 vocalists nobody remembers.
Dio was awesome. Period.
That said, Dio version Sabbath was fundamentally a different band. RJD's songwriting was much different. The vocal melodies he came up with drove the band to a much more modern (for the early 80s) metal sound, taking it in a direction away from that early "evil blues" groove sound they had in the early 70s, the sound so many stoner/doom bands use as a model to this day.
I love both, but if I were on a deserted island and could only bring half my Sabbath collection with me, it'd have to be the first few albums with Ozzy.
The band DIO, with Appice, Campbell, and Bain was also awesome, and to me the connection is obvious. DIO sounds like Dio-version Sabbath with a new guitarist and bassist.
Over the years, Geezer and Iommi have developed the signature sound of Sabbath, but variations in drummers and vocalists have a major effect on the type of songs they put out. 13 is good, but not great, IMO, and I think the difference is that it lacks Ward's swing and groove. Someone mentioned Bonham; he also had that killer swing thing, but obviously his style and Ward's are each their own. Bonham probably would do fine in Sabbath were he around to do it, but it'd also be different. And he'd be missing JPJ...
Meanwhile, listen to Warning for some killer Geezer doom bass tone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geLR_0_mLYM
This kind of sound could only come from those 4 guys.
That said, Dio version Sabbath was fundamentally a different band. RJD's songwriting was much different. The vocal melodies he came up with drove the band to a much more modern (for the early 80s) metal sound, taking it in a direction away from that early "evil blues" groove sound they had in the early 70s, the sound so many stoner/doom bands use as a model to this day.
I love both, but if I were on a deserted island and could only bring half my Sabbath collection with me, it'd have to be the first few albums with Ozzy.
The band DIO, with Appice, Campbell, and Bain was also awesome, and to me the connection is obvious. DIO sounds like Dio-version Sabbath with a new guitarist and bassist.
Over the years, Geezer and Iommi have developed the signature sound of Sabbath, but variations in drummers and vocalists have a major effect on the type of songs they put out. 13 is good, but not great, IMO, and I think the difference is that it lacks Ward's swing and groove. Someone mentioned Bonham; he also had that killer swing thing, but obviously his style and Ward's are each their own. Bonham probably would do fine in Sabbath were he around to do it, but it'd also be different. And he'd be missing JPJ...
Meanwhile, listen to Warning for some killer Geezer doom bass tone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geLR_0_mLYM
This kind of sound could only come from those 4 guys.
Careful, that opinion can get you yelled at.
No it won't; he explained his opinion competently and accurately. He didn't sound like an idiot; he didn't state that Sabbath was hair metal, and he surely didn't state that the rhythm section of Geezer Butler and Bill Ward wasn't actually Geezer Butler and Bill Ward.
And the butthurt rages on. Just put me on your ignore list then. I mean, this has ruined your entire day apparently. God forbid I tell you my opinions on Deep Purple. You'd soil yourself.
Having a hard time remembering that one, and Youtube isn't working for me currently. Maybe I do like itYou don't dig "Sign Of The Southern Cross"?
EDIT: Just got it loaded up and listened to it. Eh...
Thanks, mang. I'm listening to Plastic Planet right now. Thank Crom for Youtube.
I'm a much bigger fan of Dio era Sabbath. I like the way Iommi's and Butler's playing and writing adapted to Dio's lyrical style. There is nothing "hair metal" about it. More accessible? Maybe. I saw it more a progression than an out and out change up. I found them limited with Ozzy and it had run it's course.
As far as Butler's playing during the Dio era...I found it more melodic, controlled, and dynamic than the Ozzy years. Probably a result of the song structure but I saw it as a maturation. Just my 2 drachma.
As far as Butler's playing during the Dio era...I found it more melodic, controlled, and dynamic than the Ozzy years. Probably a result of the song structure but I saw it as a maturation. Just my 2 drachma.
Dio is just one of those polarizing singers - like Ozzy, you either dig it, or you don't.
Sabbath/Ozzy = beefy
Sabbath/Dio = still beefy, but way more cheese
Probably because I can't EVER get into a band whose singer I just don't dig...Dio I'm just on the fence about, but for instance Maiden, I just can't stand 'opera metal' vocals and have taken a constant pass on it. I've read interviews and such with/about them, and I'm not saying Dickenson 'sucks', but I just don't like what the overall sound comes to.
I can see where the 'hair metal' thing comes in, fwiw...if you're a certain age, if it sounded anything like 'Sunset Strip Metal' it wasn't cool, and to this day I really just don't like most of it. Bands that leaned in that direction were to be avoided...hell I still don't listen to the first Alice In Chains album much because it sounds too much like Alice N Chainz.
I'd prefer 13 with Ward, but it wasn't a deal breaker for me - if he'd have come to the table looking for something more than money - like making a nice 'cap' for their careers and contribution to music, and a fitting goodbye to their fans - likely no one would be bitching at all right now. 5% doesn't sound like much but that was going to be 5% of a #1 album and tour revenues, and Bill doesn't write and classically hasn't written much of Sabbath's music, despite his 'secret sauce' contribution to the band's sound.
Zep used to offer 1% to concert venues - 'because you'd damn well want 1% of a Led Zep concert if you can get it'.
I was just reading the Nirvana RS special, and it mentioned that Nirvana's split was 75% Cobain, and 12.5% each for Novoselic and Grohl. So I don't see what Bill is after - maybe 5%? Considering Geezer's contribution to lyrics along with his role in shaping the music as it's jammed out, considering Tony's overwhelming contribution (no Tony, no Sabbath, no question), considering that Ozzy writes 1/3 to 1/2 of the lyrics, I don't see much room for Bill's share.
I love the guy and his drumming to death, and maybe it's slightly less than fair, I don't know. But so is taking your football and going home when your bandmate is battling cancer and you're lucky enough to all 4 still be alive to bicker - one can just ask Pink Floyd about the opportunity squandered for a final 'real Pink Floyd' album that'll never come to pass now.
Ideally, we'd have an 'original 4' album and who knows, maybe there's still time. I don't think it's all to blame on Ozzy and his 'evil wife' though.
Maybe it's just me, though, I had zero problems with Alice In Chains' post-Layne work, despite him being one of my big heroes...he's dead, and all one has to do is peruse the credits to the first five albums/eps and see who wrote the lion's share of the material...Jerry Cantrell. So, for me, the idea that Alice could go on without Layne doesn't offend. Particularly since the resulting sound is so spookily accurate.
Sabbath/Ozzy = beefy
Sabbath/Dio = still beefy, but way more cheese
Probably because I can't EVER get into a band whose singer I just don't dig...Dio I'm just on the fence about, but for instance Maiden, I just can't stand 'opera metal' vocals and have taken a constant pass on it. I've read interviews and such with/about them, and I'm not saying Dickenson 'sucks', but I just don't like what the overall sound comes to.
I can see where the 'hair metal' thing comes in, fwiw...if you're a certain age, if it sounded anything like 'Sunset Strip Metal' it wasn't cool, and to this day I really just don't like most of it. Bands that leaned in that direction were to be avoided...hell I still don't listen to the first Alice In Chains album much because it sounds too much like Alice N Chainz
. I'd prefer 13 with Ward, but it wasn't a deal breaker for me - if he'd have come to the table looking for something more than money - like making a nice 'cap' for their careers and contribution to music, and a fitting goodbye to their fans - likely no one would be bitching at all right now. 5% doesn't sound like much but that was going to be 5% of a #1 album and tour revenues, and Bill doesn't write and classically hasn't written much of Sabbath's music, despite his 'secret sauce' contribution to the band's sound.
Zep used to offer 1% to concert venues - 'because you'd damn well want 1% of a Led Zep concert if you can get it'.
I was just reading the Nirvana RS special, and it mentioned that Nirvana's split was 75% Cobain, and 12.5% each for Novoselic and Grohl. So I don't see what Bill is after - maybe 5%? Considering Geezer's contribution to lyrics along with his role in shaping the music as it's jammed out, considering Tony's overwhelming contribution (no Tony, no Sabbath, no question), considering that Ozzy writes 1/3 to 1/2 of the lyrics, I don't see much room for Bill's share.
I love the guy and his drumming to death, and maybe it's slightly less than fair, I don't know. But so is taking your football and going home when your bandmate is battling cancer and you're lucky enough to all 4 still be alive to bicker - one can just ask Pink Floyd about the opportunity squandered for a final 'real Pink Floyd' album that'll never come to pass now.
Ideally, we'd have an 'original 4' album and who knows, maybe there's still time. I don't think it's all to blame on Ozzy and his 'evil wife' though.
Maybe it's just me, though, I had zero problems with Alice In Chains' post-Layne work, despite him being one of my big heroes...he's dead, and all one has to do is peruse the credits to the first five albums/eps and see who wrote the lion's share of the material...Jerry Cantrell. So, for me, the idea that Alice could go on without Layne doesn't offend. Particularly since the resulting sound is so spookily accurate.
Geezer just plays and plays the bass. He is probably top 3 as far as blues-based rock bassists go. He's not going to do licks up and down the neck but man is he in your face.
To compare him to NFL runningbacks, if Geddy Lee or Chris Squire are Jim Kiick, Geezer Butler is Larry Csonka.
To compare him to NFL runningbacks, if Geddy Lee or Chris Squire are Jim Kiick, Geezer Butler is Larry Csonka.
