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Blues and it's Islam connection
- Thread starter JAUQO III-X
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I don't buy it.
If this discussion violates forum policies, which I think it probaby does, moderators should CLOSE this thread immediately.
No good can come from this...only fighting.
If this discussion violates forum policies, which I think it probaby does, moderators should CLOSE this thread immediately.
No good can come from this...only fighting.
Mchaven,
I didn't say the article claimed that Islam is responsible for blues, just that the bassis for the theory that Islam influenced blues to any extent seems remote and lacks any bassis that a real academic research calls for. pair this with the strange decision to credit the Islamic religion and not the Arab culture from which it's based upon raises some questions about the credibility and motives of the author.
I didn't say the article claimed that Islam is responsible for blues, just that the bassis for the theory that Islam influenced blues to any extent seems remote and lacks any bassis that a real academic research calls for. pair this with the strange decision to credit the Islamic religion and not the Arab culture from which it's based upon raises some questions about the credibility and motives of the author.
I never disagree with you about the credibility or research of the author. You raise a good point, but I cannot answer it. Perhaps there will be more research done to further examine the proposed link, and perhaps the main researcher has explained why she made her choices the way she did. We have just read an article about it, not the researcher's own words.
+ 100
Sorry guys, I dont see why it needs to be brought up. A lot of the major scale modes are called "church modes", but that doesn't mean we need to go discuss which denominations and religions they came from or that it even matters.
Not to sound stupid or whatever, but I have a lot of respect for the music that came from the south and what these guys did to shape the music that we ALL play today. I wouldn't rob them of that honor by trying to pin it 10 generations back and take the focus off of the legendary guitarists and other musicians who made blues and rock what it is today, in the American South. Sure there is probably some influences from different types of world music that went into it, but the blues was conceived and birthed in the South...and there's no changing that
I'll read the article.
Of course Muslim influence in the Mediterranean was rather wide.
The part that is news to me is that Islam had penetrated to sub-Saharan more primitive peoples that were enslaved for trade to the Americas (the vast majority came from that west central coast region of Africa). Of course Asia and European people had been taking slaves from Africa in more northern and eastern areas for centuries.
Nile Valley region, Mediterranean, and Sahelian have connections to Islam. Other peoples, why did they get the religion without the other aspects?
I'll have to put on my reading list.
Thanks for sharing, and thanks for (mostly) keeping the conversation smarter than most MISC forums.
Of course Muslim influence in the Mediterranean was rather wide.
The part that is news to me is that Islam had penetrated to sub-Saharan more primitive peoples that were enslaved for trade to the Americas (the vast majority came from that west central coast region of Africa). Of course Asia and European people had been taking slaves from Africa in more northern and eastern areas for centuries.
Nile Valley region, Mediterranean, and Sahelian have connections to Islam. Other peoples, why did they get the religion without the other aspects?
I'll have to put on my reading list.
Thanks for sharing, and thanks for (mostly) keeping the conversation smarter than most MISC forums.
Some thoughts:
My wife is Palestinian / Egyptian
I am a Muslim convert
We have discussed this thread in depth over the last hour.
Just because someone is a doctor doesn't mean much more than he or she wrote a thesis on a subject.
I find (ironically enough both for the name and that they had blues roots) Led Zepplin's Immigrant Song (intro ah's) more closely related to the Islamic call to prayer than Levee Camp Holler. I know. I heard the call to prayer five times a day for five years.
I also think the Christian memorial acclamation ("let us proclaim the mystery of faith") to be tonally similar to the Islamic call to prayer. Not identical only similar.
Arabic music is based on microtonalities. Blues is so clearly macrotonal I could puke 1-4-5! And as mentioned previously Arabic is the language of the Quran.
This is like saying 30% of Americans are Christian so US pop music must come from Christian roots.
Just thinking...
My wife is Palestinian / Egyptian
I am a Muslim convert
We have discussed this thread in depth over the last hour.
Just because someone is a doctor doesn't mean much more than he or she wrote a thesis on a subject.
I find (ironically enough both for the name and that they had blues roots) Led Zepplin's Immigrant Song (intro ah's) more closely related to the Islamic call to prayer than Levee Camp Holler. I know. I heard the call to prayer five times a day for five years.
I also think the Christian memorial acclamation ("let us proclaim the mystery of faith") to be tonally similar to the Islamic call to prayer. Not identical only similar.
Arabic music is based on microtonalities. Blues is so clearly macrotonal I could puke 1-4-5! And as mentioned previously Arabic is the language of the Quran.
This is like saying 30% of Americans are Christian so US pop music must come from Christian roots.
Just thinking...
Wow. I'm glad my doctor did a lot more than just write a paper on ankle surgery!
Sorry. Just kidding. I know you're referring to the PhD-type.
Sorry. Just kidding. I know you're referring to the PhD-type.
I disagree. Once blues becomes standardized and mainstream, it does get rather macrotonal, but if you listen to, say Robert Johnson, his singing and slide guitar playing is clearly microtonal.
PS: Thanks for introducing me to the word "macrotonal."
Well, I think/hope that most of us with doctorates can do better than believe something from the intrawebz.
I'm remembering Alex Haley getting firmly scolded and debunked for putting Islam into his work. Black Power movement and all, it fit with the times, but s'posedly was fabricated. This article, of course, had crap for evidence, but the work it's derived from perhaps will vindicate Haley.
I'm remembering Alex Haley getting firmly scolded and debunked for putting Islam into his work. Black Power movement and all, it fit with the times, but s'posedly was fabricated. This article, of course, had crap for evidence, but the work it's derived from perhaps will vindicate Haley.
...Glad you didn't do the surgery!
I only get paid to think about things, not do them!
As someone with a Ph.D. in African history who has worked in he field as a professor for 19 years, I think I have the qualifications to speak on the subject. First, the notion of studying African retentions and survivals is very old in African American and diasporic history. Historians and anthropologists of many backgrounds have been involved for almost 100 years. In fact the earliest scholars to really push this line of research were not black at all, they were Jewish: Franz Boas and Melville J. Herskovitz.
In America at least, some of the most radical black scholars E. Franklin Frazier fought the idea of survivals from Africa and retentions ferociously. In the 1950s, the notion of survivals from Africa in diasporan cultures became generally accepted. By the time I began work on my Ph.D. in the mid 1980's this was a standard part of African historiography.
Mr. Westbrook, one thing you need to understand is that influence is not solely a factor of numbers. Just look at the USA, more people migrated her from German than any other country, at least until the 1980s, yet this remained an English speaking nation. Similarly,among Diasporic black communities, the ideas that caught on aong these diverse people who were thrown together were often from minority populations.
As for the number of Muslim slaves, it varied at different times during the slave trade. During the late 17th through early 18th centuries, probably a majority of slaves were Muslim. During that time SC and GA (towards the end) were getting many slaves to work he rice fields, and these slaves tended to come from the Upper Guinea Coast (Senegal, Gambia {Kunta Kinte}, Sierra Leone, Mali, among others.) That era was heavily Muslim then, and is almost totally Muslim now, even Siera Leone is now majority Muslim.
In the 19th century, wars between the Hausa and Yoruba also resulted in many Muslim prisoners of war being sent tto the Americas. There was even a anti-slavery jihad in Brazil at one point during the 1800s.
As for you criticizing and the article, that's what scholars do. That's how we improve our work. I just think the notion that what she wrote is "propoganda" is unfair, and seems to show a predjudice against work that doesn't fit your preconceptions.
African Americans did not have access to ouds or Malian style stringed instruments, so it should not surprise you that the music had a western tonality. The blues does feature lots of blue or bent notes. There is often a suggestionj of microtnality, even though the music itself is not by and large.
Bryan R. Tyler
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As this thread has already caused issues, I'm closing it for the night as I'm going to bed and don't know if any other mods will be up this late to babysit it, and I don't want to come back in the morning to a huge religious debate. I'm also going to get some other opinions on this before reopening. If any other Misc. mods happen to be active this late, feel free to reopen.
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