Boom Bass Cabinets?

[Brad Johnson]

Those are ported cabs, tuned to what I like to hear with a full range driver.

Cool. Could you do something with multiple drivers in the 90 degree configuration in a sealed enclosure? That would be closer to what we're working with here. The 1212 with matching drivers would be a good start. Probably easier to predict than the 1012.

Everything I'd come across here about sealed cabs told me that one this small, let alone with two drivers, wouldn't perform like these. I personally love surprises like this.

 

[seamonkey]

There is no new innovation going on here. These kinds of designs have been around a long time.
The same designed has been tried and isn't magic.

These two examples of course are subs and have custom drivers made for the situation. They have measurements. They not made for live bass. You'd need to add some mid-range and tops for any use, and they're terribly inefficient compared to what you can do with professional speakers.

This type of design can be modeled. Two speakers in a box.
I'll hold out for simple measurements that disprove the modeling.
Haul the things up to the roof or a field and take some simple AES approved measurements.
No real expensive gear is needed with the abundance of PC and software available these days.
No need for me to hear in real life until there is measurements. My mind is open to actual measurements or modeling.

 

[CL400Peavey]

Cool. Could you do something with multiple drivers in the 90 degree configuration in a sealed enclosure? That would be closer to what we're working with here. The 1212 with matching drivers would be a good start. Probably easier to predict than the 1012.

Everything I'd come across here about sealed cabs told me that one this small, let alone with two drivers, wouldn't perform like these. I personally love surprises like this.

The graphs I posted are the 12PR300 and 15PR400 loaded like they would be in the "tank".

 

[Brad Johnson]

The graphs I posted are the 12PR300 and 15PR400 loaded like they would be in the "tank".

Together? What's the size of the sealed enclosure?

 

[Brad Johnson]

There is no new innovation going on here. These kinds of designs have been around a long time.
The same designed has been tried and isn't magic.

These two examples of course are subs and have custom drivers made for the situation. They have measurements. They not made for live bass. You'd need to add some mid-range and tops for any use, and they're terribly inefficient compared to what you can do with professional speakers.

This type of design can be modeled. Two speakers in a box.
I'll hold out for simple measurements that disprove the modeling.
Haul the things up to the roof or a field and take some simple AES approved measurements.
No real expensive gear is needed with the abundance of PC and software available these days.
No need for me to hear in real life until there is measurements. My mind is open to actual measurements or modeling.

Yes, they are subs. Thanks. And there's been no claim of a new innovation but thanks for that too. Other than the differences these are just like a Tank.

 

[CL400Peavey]

Together? What's the size of the sealed enclosure?

90 liters is what I used for the internal closed space. A guess at what that volume is, as I have never been inside the cab, And I dont know what the exact angle the baffle is at. The volume shifting 10L either way doesnt effect the response much.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Great... so what's your conclusion? How loud will it get? Frequency response and tone?

 

[CL400Peavey]

Great... so what's your conclusion? How loud will it get? Frequency response and tone?

The graphs posted already show what the low end will be doing. From about 200hz, to somewhere around 800hz or so there will be a bump in the response. Above that it will taper to line up with Faital's measured response for the 12PR300. I suspect as you push the cab, that low mid region will give the cab what some would call "punchy" tone, but it will not exhibit a lot of sub bass, or upper mids, until the tweeter kicks in. No clue where the filter point is on that.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Just so we're clear... are you referring to the first or second set of graphs? The first being sealed, the second being ported.

 

[CL400Peavey]

Just so we're clear... are you referring to the first or second set of graphs? The first being sealed, the second being ported.

So here is the sensitivity response of the individual speakers in the BBC Tank, sealed cabs, in about their portion of air space.

View attachment 509143
Adding them, and taking in to account Duke's tip in item 1. I left the 15PR400 curve there, for perspective as we shift things around.

View attachment 509144
Ok so at this point we start to see how deep the cab is going to reach. -3db is at 90hz, and -10db is at 50. As Duke has already said, the slot is going to work as a filter for the mids and highs coming off the 15. So above 350-500hz, your response is going to take a -3.5db cut to line up with what is coming off of the 12. The power handling of this alignment is going to be limited by the single 12. That is around 300 watts in this configuration before you are reaching the mechanical limits of the 12. Making the total cab, a 600 watt cab.
View attachment 509145
For comparison here is a single 3015LF, ported box about 130l tuned to 46hz. The difference in the low end performance is staggeringly different. The -3db point is 45hz. The mids are going to still go in favor of the 3015LF through to about 800hz, once the response of the tank lines up with the 12 due to the slot filter doing its job. Above that you would need to pair the Eminence woofer with any number of mid drivers. Their responses are more easily compared to the 12PR300.

What the Tank does have, that the Eminence loaded cab does not, is a big low mid hump. The peak from 100 to about 600 hz is going to dominate what you hear. This isnt true bass, but your ear is going to get enough harmonic content, that some people will be impressed with it.

These are back of the napkin simulations, using free tools on the internet (Thank you Francis!). I am sure there are more refined programs, but these do show a general trend of what the cabs are doing, and are valid for comparison sake.

This shows the 15PR400 and a 12PR300 solo in a sealed cab. It then shows the tank compared to the sealed 15PR400. I also show a singular ported 3015LF compared to the Tank.

For some more comparison, here is a single 15PR400 in a ported cab. Once again with the tank you end up with a ~3db low mid hump, and a prominent roll off in the lows. The other difference you would hear is the 15PR400, as the forward facing driver, actually reaches higher than the 12PR300.

View attachment 509177

Here is the 12PR300 loaded in to a ported cab.

View attachment 509178

This compares a solo ported 15PR300 against the tank, and again a solo 12PR300 against the tank.

My goal with the comparisons is to show what you gain by adding the sealed 12 to the sealed 15 and both to the tank, the ported solo drivers to the tank, and the low end of something like a 3015LF in a ported cab to the tank.

 

[Brad Johnson]

How does that anticipate how the TWO drivers affect each other in the sealed cabinet? Or don't they? I lean towards the unpredictability of that performance.

And I'm trying to understand the relevance of a low frequency driver (3015LF) in a ported cab vs. a driver that has strong mids in addition to lows in a sealed cab with another similar or identical driver.

The cabs have a great old school vibe with the tweeter turned down/off. That doesn't turn the cabs into subs.

 

[CL400Peavey]

How does that anticipate how the TWO drivers affect each other in the sealed cabinet? Or don't they? I lean towards the unpredictability of that performance.

I was looking for something along the lines of what Duke mentioned.

So what we'll end up with is a curve that, relative to the front-firing woofer all by itself (and limited to its share of the airspace), is up by 6 dB in the bass region and in some of the lower midrange region, gently sloping downward until the curve is only a little louder than the single woofer at the top end.

And I'm trying to understand the relevance of a low frequency driver (3015LF) in a ported cab vs. a driver that has strong mids in addition to lows in a sealed cab with another similar or identical driver.

Just showing what can happen in a similar sized cab.

The cabs have a great old school vibe with the tweeter turned down/off. That doesn't turn the cabs into subs.

This is what I expext. The ampeg 810e has a lot going on in the low mids, and this cab does too. This cab would actually have better mid range tonality than the Ampeg IMO, I greatly prefer the sound of the faital driver.

 

[slade]

these sound like cool cabs- to bad the whole "this cab can outperform these other cabs" type of claims have to be made as it turns a lot of us off. Ironic that those that make those same types of claims with regards to their "super cabs" get ruffled when others do the same about a different brand. I'd love to play one and give it a spin though...

 

[Sundogue]

I said "I'm telling you, this thing held its own against 810's, 210 / 115 stacks and 410's." Because that is the truth from multiple outdoor festivals, club dates and venues. OF COURSE THERE WAS PA SUPPORT.

My Suburban holds it's own and even blows away a Prius in gas mileage...WHEN ITS BEING TOWED.

I have no horse in this race and honestly I really love new designs (or different takes on existing designs) for bass application, from fEARfuls to Fearless, Big E to Boom Bass. It's all good. I'm all for whatever works for any bass player.

Opinions without facts are really meaningless. Some factual information is required to quantify the opinion. It's not about science versus preference. It's just that when someone says a cab gets really loud, well, what is loud to some is quiet to others. Having PA support has nothing to do with the output of a bass cab onstage.

If one were to say this or that cab "gets loud enough for my needs" is one thing. To say it holds its own against another cab in output, but then adding that it needs more from another source (like a PA) in order to do so, really only discounts its ability to hold its own against another cab.

It's all good though. I follow this thread because in the end a great cab design only needs to fulfill the desires of those who want to use them. Its up to others if peoples opinions have any validity when combined with the facts. Saying "My bucket holds a lot of water...just as much as those other buckets" may lead people to buy that bucket, until they find out that "in fact" the bucket in question is a 2 gallon pail, and it's being compared to 5 gallon pails. That doesn't mean the 2 gallon one isn't sufficient to its user, but using opinion alone can be misleading.

Carry on. These look like interesting cabs.

 

[Ian Trusheim]

Well stated Sundogue. Yes, this cab gets loud enough for my needs. My point regarding PA support (and I realize I didn't clarify) was that on most large clubs, events, festivals, there will be PA support. For my needs, this cab provides more than enough volume on stage....why would I lug around some heavy cab? And that is why I said "I think I hurt some other bassists' feelings."

Also, I've played numerous shows without PA support with drummers and guitarists playing at an unnecessary volume, the BBC has held it's own every time. It sounds great at high volumes or practice volumes. Yes, this cab gets loud enough for my needs.

At this time, I think I'll bow out of this thread.... No matter what I say or how I state it, someone (majority) are reinterpreting my words. Could I be any more clear by stating "this is just my opinion and experience"??? Yes, this cab gets loud enough for my needs. The portability, tone, power, and neutral sound make this my cabinet of choice.

I do appreciate Sundogue's comment. So, once again....Yes, this cabinet gets loud enough for my needs. This is just my opinion and experience.

Peace,
Ian

 

[slade]

Don't bow out- I think your review was legit and informative- it's just when anyone makes bold claims about small cabs blowing huge cabs off the stage it gets into a pissing match. i don't even necessarily doubt your claims because I haven't toured with your cab.

 

[Sundogue]

Don't bow out- I think your review was legit and informative- it's just when anyone makes bold claims about small cabs blowing huge cabs off the stage it gets into a pissing match. i don't even necessarily doubt your claims because I haven't toured with your cab.

Yes. No need to bow out. Opinions are a valuable resource. It's not really about a pissing match, but rather that so long as facts back up opinion, there is nothing to argue over.

Things like power handling (thermal as well as displacement limitation), SPL at given frequencies, efficiency, etc. are all factual things that are easily objectively measured and help quantify opinions expressed.

Opinions like, "great tone, "gets loud", "deep low end", etc. are subjective and relative to each individual, and as such, need to be put into some kind of context to have relevancy.

 

[Ian Trusheim]

Don't bow out- I think your review was legit and informative- it's just when anyone makes bold claims about small cabs blowing huge cabs off the stage it gets into a pissing match. i don't even necessarily doubt your claims because I haven't toured with your cab.

Ok, I won't bow out. But I don't want people twisting my words either. I never said my cab "blew a huge cabinet off the stage" and I'm not going to continue to repeat myself. We're all smart and know how to read...I hope that people will take the time to read my posts for what they are and stop making assumptions/observations based off of things that I clearly did not say.

 

[Sundogue]

Ok, I won't bow out. But I don't want people twisting my words either. I never said my cab "blew a huge cabinet off the stage" and I'm not going to continue to repeat myself. We're all smart and know how to read...I hope that people will take the time to read my posts for what they are and stop making assumptions/observations based off of things that I clearly did not say.

I said "I'm telling you, this thing held its own against 810's, 210 / 115 stacks and 410's." Because that is the truth from multiple outdoor festivals, club dates and venues. OF COURSE THERE WAS PA SUPPORT.

Perhaps it's the way it was worded. It gives the impression that your cab can keep up with an 810, etc. It might be more telling if you had said "While other players used 810's, 210/115 stacks and 410's for their purposes, on the same stage my cab worked great for my personal monitoring needs, as we all went through a PA".

I'm not trying to split hairs here. There is a big difference in how it is worded. As I said I'm not arguing for or against these cabs. It's just that if others have an interest and are deciding between lugging around an 810 or one of these cabs, it would be a shame if these cabs are really great, but someone ended up buying one and being disappointed because of claims as to their output and then went around bashing them.

 

[slade]

I was paraphrasing, and honestly I wasn't even paraphrasing you. Countless fearful threads here where certain guys make similar claims- I should have been more clear. My post was more to point out the hypocrisy in those condemning your claims after having made similar claims regarding their favorite cabs. That's all. Sorry to put words in your mouth. I can read