Best post so far in this thread!
Thank you. Now excuse me while I open an '82 Lafite and a Miller Lite to celebrate.
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Boutique basses
- Thread starter LouieV2
- Start date
Thank you. Now excuse me while I open an '82 Lafite and a Miller Lite to celebrate.
This thread reminds me of the photography forums.
Those with the Canon 50mm 1.4 prime lens that is $350
and
Those with the Canon 50mm 1.2 prime lens that is $1550
Those with the Canon 50mm 1.4 prime lens that is $350
and
Those with the Canon 50mm 1.2 prime lens that is $1550
And you apparently missed the point of mine, so I'll spell it out. Ignoring 50 years of inflation makes the comparison bogus. MIA Fenders have never been priced as "budget" basses.Oh good, you read the post
There, I fixed it for accuracy--see, you can get Allevas for not much above $3K, not to mention many others such as Lakland and Sadowsky can be had for at or under $3K depending on the model. Sorry, your post may not be as dramatic now.
I have to totally agree with you. I started with a $5.00 bass at a garage sale. 40 years later I will only play Dingwalls.
This is something I think many people have overlooked - it's all relative.
I have a double bass made by a company in Eastern Europe called Gliga. This particular model is marketed at advanced high-school music students and college musicians on a budget; it's not cheap or entry-level, but it will get you through your music education until you are a pro and can afford to put $30,000+ on a decent instrument. If you're serious and have a full-time seat in a pro orchestra, you'd be looking at over $100,000 in many cases.
This one cost me $5500, plus another $500 for a basic protective case. I have two bows, $90 and $300. I've done things cheaply with my double bass, but have still managed to spend as much as most would spend on a boutique or custom electric bass.
So, yeah, it's relative to the instrument in question, and that's important to remember in these discussions.
The cool thing about instruments is each one is individual. Fenders for example have always had the reputation of being hit or miss, two identical basses may play/feel different. One might be magical, while the other may be a turd.
It stands to reason that an amazing bass could be found at virtually any price point, but the lower your price point the lower your odds of finding that "special instrument".
With boutique builders, you will find more consistency in build quality and performance. You get more attention to detail, better fretwork, better hardware, better wiring/soldering etc.
I suppose it's possible for one of these to be a clunker, but it would be much more of an extreme case.
There is no right or wrong answer but here is my opinion (and I believe many people on here will agree):
If you can afford a boutique bass, really afford it then by all means get one! Having a top notch instrument is a wonderful thing but if you have to sell a kidney, rob a liquor store, or eat top ramen for three years to buy one, it's not worth it!!!!!! In this case there are all kinds of fantastic basses in the $1,200-1,500 range that are excellent instruments and will serve you well.
It stands to reason that an amazing bass could be found at virtually any price point, but the lower your price point the lower your odds of finding that "special instrument".
With boutique builders, you will find more consistency in build quality and performance. You get more attention to detail, better fretwork, better hardware, better wiring/soldering etc.
I suppose it's possible for one of these to be a clunker, but it would be much more of an extreme case.
There is no right or wrong answer but here is my opinion (and I believe many people on here will agree):
If you can afford a boutique bass, really afford it then by all means get one! Having a top notch instrument is a wonderful thing but if you have to sell a kidney, rob a liquor store, or eat top ramen for three years to buy one, it's not worth it!!!!!! In this case there are all kinds of fantastic basses in the $1,200-1,500 range that are excellent instruments and will serve you well.
After getting my first, a Zon Sonus Custom 5, I can say definitively that yes, the bonus in playability, attention to detail, and sound are worth it.
A lot of what motivates people to spend hard earned cash on expensive things has to do with what you value. I love fine art, so my walls are covered with original paintings.
I have a buddy who lives in a very nice house and owns expensive cars, but sees no reason to buy art at all. My point is, you only see value in the things that make sense to you.
I have a buddy who lives in a very nice house and owns expensive cars, but sees no reason to buy art at all. My point is, you only see value in the things that make sense to you.
Just Thumpin'
Commercial User
- Mar 7, 2008
- 4,534
- 1,664
- Disclosures
- Manager and Partner, Fodera Guitars (10/14/09 - 12/16/19)
Interesting...what are these statements based on? We have never said anything of the sort. The reality is that we build the finest instruments that we are capable of building and price them at a level that allows us to stay in business. Thankfully there are a fair number of players out there that dig what we do and this allows us to remain a viable business as well as being quality craftsmen. We are certainly not trying to compare ourselves to any other manufacturer out there.
One other word on pricing...I joined Fodera as a partner in October of 2009 but have been playing our instruments since long before that. The company's very first profitable year was 2011 -- in our 29 year history. In addition to being a bass player, I have a business degree from a pretty prestigious university. We would LOVE to build our instruments the way that we build them without compromising quality for a lot less money. Unfortunately, we simply can't. I have spent the last four years of my professional life trying to ensure that we understand exactly what makes our instruments what they are and have yet to come up with any magic cost-cutting ideas that wouldn't diminish the end result of our builds. As a matter of fact, our "per unit cost" has increased fairly significantly since I have been here as given any chance to do something the best that we can or the most economically prudent way, we always gravitate towards the former.
This thread appears in one form or another every month or so here on TB and while it makes for interesting reading, it really comes down to the fact that there are a lot of really wonderful bass makers out there satisfying every price point from $300 to $100,000 and all points in between (we are NOT the $100,000 builder). What's right for one person is not for another and that's totally cool...viva la difference...
On another note, my nearly 80 year-old mother-in-law has consistently been saying to me for 20+ years that she can't tell the difference between a $10 bottle of wine and a $100 bottle of wine. That bums me out as I have poured far more $50 bottles of wine at dinner for her than $10 bottles, and I cannot help but wonder just how much money has been "wasted" over the years in so doing!
So, just for fun, my wife and I recently offered her a blind tasting of four Pinot Noirs varying in price from $14 to $150 per bottle. We asked her to rank them in order of "quality" from HER perspective. She knows next to nothing about wine other than what she personally prefers. Her ranking directly corresponded to the prices of the wines and, yes, she preferred the $150 bottle far more than the $14 bottle -- although intellectually she was 100% certain that this wouldn't be the case. As she savored the last sips of the special bottle that we had opened (alas, the expensive one) she became a bit teary eyed and said, "I spent my whole life thinking there was no difference, think of how much joy I have missed."
So, I end here with an offer...those of you that are "certain" that you cannot tell the difference between the instruments that we build and a $300 budget bass, please pay us a visit at the shop. See what we do. Bring your favorite instrument (be it $300, $1,000 or $100,000) with you and play some of ours alongside it. If you still love the one you are with more...fabulous! If you prefer what we are doing, well that's great too. Just don't be my mother-in-law and assume things will be a certain way...find out for yourself!
And one last thing, as was posted earlier by "nostatic," the reason that we hope that you'll pay us a visit is so that we can be certain that the instrument that we put in your hands is truly representative of us. Trying a "friend's" Fodera that may have been built for a player with completely different sonic and ergonomic goals and/or not be set-up properly for the way you play might leave you feeling like you have answered the question when, in fact you may not have.
Cheers,
Jason
One other word on pricing...I joined Fodera as a partner in October of 2009 but have been playing our instruments since long before that. The company's very first profitable year was 2011 -- in our 29 year history. In addition to being a bass player, I have a business degree from a pretty prestigious university. We would LOVE to build our instruments the way that we build them without compromising quality for a lot less money. Unfortunately, we simply can't. I have spent the last four years of my professional life trying to ensure that we understand exactly what makes our instruments what they are and have yet to come up with any magic cost-cutting ideas that wouldn't diminish the end result of our builds. As a matter of fact, our "per unit cost" has increased fairly significantly since I have been here as given any chance to do something the best that we can or the most economically prudent way, we always gravitate towards the former.
This thread appears in one form or another every month or so here on TB and while it makes for interesting reading, it really comes down to the fact that there are a lot of really wonderful bass makers out there satisfying every price point from $300 to $100,000 and all points in between (we are NOT the $100,000 builder). What's right for one person is not for another and that's totally cool...viva la difference...
On another note, my nearly 80 year-old mother-in-law has consistently been saying to me for 20+ years that she can't tell the difference between a $10 bottle of wine and a $100 bottle of wine. That bums me out as I have poured far more $50 bottles of wine at dinner for her than $10 bottles, and I cannot help but wonder just how much money has been "wasted" over the years in so doing!
So, just for fun, my wife and I recently offered her a blind tasting of four Pinot Noirs varying in price from $14 to $150 per bottle. We asked her to rank them in order of "quality" from HER perspective. She knows next to nothing about wine other than what she personally prefers. Her ranking directly corresponded to the prices of the wines and, yes, she preferred the $150 bottle far more than the $14 bottle -- although intellectually she was 100% certain that this wouldn't be the case. As she savored the last sips of the special bottle that we had opened (alas, the expensive one) she became a bit teary eyed and said, "I spent my whole life thinking there was no difference, think of how much joy I have missed."
So, I end here with an offer...those of you that are "certain" that you cannot tell the difference between the instruments that we build and a $300 budget bass, please pay us a visit at the shop. See what we do. Bring your favorite instrument (be it $300, $1,000 or $100,000) with you and play some of ours alongside it. If you still love the one you are with more...fabulous! If you prefer what we are doing, well that's great too. Just don't be my mother-in-law and assume things will be a certain way...find out for yourself!
And one last thing, as was posted earlier by "nostatic," the reason that we hope that you'll pay us a visit is so that we can be certain that the instrument that we put in your hands is truly representative of us. Trying a "friend's" Fodera that may have been built for a player with completely different sonic and ergonomic goals and/or not be set-up properly for the way you play might leave you feeling like you have answered the question when, in fact you may not have.
Cheers,
Jason
Don't feel bad, no one can
Mostly because wine is not priced by it's taste. Though people who pay a lot for wine like to claim it is.
I always chuckle a little on the inside when I see Fodera or Allevo or other boutiques brag about how their $4000 and up basses can nail the tone of a mass produced budget bass that sold for less than $300.
Just Thumpin'
Commercial User
- Mar 7, 2008
- 4,534
- 1,664
- Disclosures
- Manager and Partner, Fodera Guitars (10/14/09 - 12/16/19)
I can only assume that this refers to some of the quotes listed in our Newborn Section...all of which are written by me after playing the instruments or talking with Joey about them (depending on who is doing what on a given day).
When I refer to "Vintage Jazz Bass Tone," I am referring directly to my 1964 Fender Jazz Bass which not only happens to be an exceptional example, but also is very representative of the best of the era. What I will also say, having had the opportunity to regularly play both an original 1964 Fender Jazz alongside our instruments is that the sonic palate that we are able to achieve with our instruments is far broader than the '64. Our basses (given a certain build, electronics and pickup placement) can nail that tone but also do much, much more too...
Hope this makes sense...
Jason
When I refer to "Vintage Jazz Bass Tone," I am referring directly to my 1964 Fender Jazz Bass which not only happens to be an exceptional example, but also is very representative of the best of the era. What I will also say, having had the opportunity to regularly play both an original 1964 Fender Jazz alongside our instruments is that the sonic palate that we are able to achieve with our instruments is far broader than the '64. Our basses (given a certain build, electronics and pickup placement) can nail that tone but also do much, much more too...
Hope this makes sense...
Jason
The internet
They will call it vintage Jazz tone though since that sounds better than cheap mass produced bass. When you charge that much you have to massage these things into something palatable.
Jason, well said. I've only had one opportunity to playa Fodera - in NYC several years ago - and it was without a doubt one of the finest instruments I've ever played. I think we're hearing a whole lotta sour grapes here!
I've been playing for over 35 years. I've been looking for THAT bass for quite a while. I finally settled on a Roscoe.
Here's my take. This new instrument has improved my playing. My playing is now more articulate. Every nuance of my fingers comes out of this bass. The second octave is fast, fluid, and completely in tune whether I'm playing single notes, double stops or chords.
I play in rock bands, a jazz trio with a singer, and a lot of theatre work, which goes from Sondheim to Johnny Cash. This bass sounds perfect for all of these genres. Don't get me wrong - I can still give you a great performance with a Jazz, but I can give you an even better one with my bass.
I played many basses the day I chose this one. (From Club Bass in Toronto, a really great store, IMHO!) I didn't even pay attention the finish until after I had already decided this was the one. Then I really looked and saw how well built it is.
So here's where I'm going with this. If you're a newer player, perhaps you won't appreciate the finer details of a truly well built instrument. If you're comfortable with your style and technique, perhaps you don't need a better instrument. If you're at a point in your playing where you're looking to move to a higher level, then perhaps a better instrument is exactly what you need.
As far as cost goes, it's up to the buyer. Is a Porsche worth ten times what a Toyota is? It depends entirely on your means and appreciation.
I've been playing for over 35 years. I've been looking for THAT bass for quite a while. I finally settled on a Roscoe.
Here's my take. This new instrument has improved my playing. My playing is now more articulate. Every nuance of my fingers comes out of this bass. The second octave is fast, fluid, and completely in tune whether I'm playing single notes, double stops or chords.
I play in rock bands, a jazz trio with a singer, and a lot of theatre work, which goes from Sondheim to Johnny Cash. This bass sounds perfect for all of these genres. Don't get me wrong - I can still give you a great performance with a Jazz, but I can give you an even better one with my bass.
I played many basses the day I chose this one. (From Club Bass in Toronto, a really great store, IMHO!) I didn't even pay attention the finish until after I had already decided this was the one. Then I really looked and saw how well built it is.
So here's where I'm going with this. If you're a newer player, perhaps you won't appreciate the finer details of a truly well built instrument. If you're comfortable with your style and technique, perhaps you don't need a better instrument. If you're at a point in your playing where you're looking to move to a higher level, then perhaps a better instrument is exactly what you need.
As far as cost goes, it's up to the buyer. Is a Porsche worth ten times what a Toyota is? It depends entirely on your means and appreciation.
- Jun 3, 2009
- 3,330
- 398
- Disclosures
- Bassgearu, Music Industry Consulting and Sales. Tech 21, NBE Corp, Sonosphere.
I'm with Jason here for sure. I've been playing over $35 years, and I've owned just about every cheapo and high end production bass on the planet. Heck, my collection is still crowded with Kubicki's, original Steinbergers, and old Carl Thompson, and many more you could name.
My Brubaker KXB-5 is by far the most versatile piece of equipment I've ever owned, and it has amazing feel. I can conjure up those "vintage tones" as well as tones of about every other bass I own, save the vint Danos. I also can pull out tones I've never had before.
Like Jason said, combos of wood, electronics, hardware, neck shapes, body contours, you name it all go into the sonic and aesthetic qualities of a boutique bass. And yes, that all comes at a price. And that price has to ensure that Jason can take me to lunch when I visit him and the rest of the gang in NY! ;-)
I agree, on the surface, making a point of sounding like a vintage tone from a production bass may seem oxymoronic, but that is a tone that everyone tries to emulate. Why not have a bass that can pull that tone? If you are a studio musician you already know that if you walk into a studio carrying your Ritter, even if you can get a world of tones, the engineer ultimately will hand you a freakin' J or P bass and ask you to play that. So, if you can nail that tone, then you can play YOUR instrument, not some stupid studio guys idea of a bass.
Boutique basses, like Fodera and Brubaker, excel live. There isn't a room on the planet where you won't be able to dial in your sound, and cut through the mix without sounding like crud, with one of those basses. I would challenge you to do that with even a vintage J or P.
What Jason and the boyz (and girl, yes Laura) do for the price is amazingly reasonable. As is attested by the people who buy and also "borrow" a Fodera. (A certain Pastorius currently has one a friend lent him and to my knowledge he isn't gonna give it back.)
Look, I'm an old school punk bass player. As long as it has strings and makes some noise it usually will suffice. But I play boutique in many situations. Because it can do much more for me then my old Silvertone 1442 did for me back in the day.
The same argument can be made with boutique amps. You can buy a decent Behringer for a buck a watt. Everyone else is at $3 or $4 a watt. Then you go boutique, and its $6 a watt in most cases.
I played the new Fuchs Bruiser bass amp last week. The consensus of all the TBers there was that we'd all have liked to take the rig to a larger venue and open her up and see what she could do....
My Brubaker KXB-5 is by far the most versatile piece of equipment I've ever owned, and it has amazing feel. I can conjure up those "vintage tones" as well as tones of about every other bass I own, save the vint Danos. I also can pull out tones I've never had before.
Like Jason said, combos of wood, electronics, hardware, neck shapes, body contours, you name it all go into the sonic and aesthetic qualities of a boutique bass. And yes, that all comes at a price. And that price has to ensure that Jason can take me to lunch when I visit him and the rest of the gang in NY! ;-)
I agree, on the surface, making a point of sounding like a vintage tone from a production bass may seem oxymoronic, but that is a tone that everyone tries to emulate. Why not have a bass that can pull that tone? If you are a studio musician you already know that if you walk into a studio carrying your Ritter, even if you can get a world of tones, the engineer ultimately will hand you a freakin' J or P bass and ask you to play that. So, if you can nail that tone, then you can play YOUR instrument, not some stupid studio guys idea of a bass.
Boutique basses, like Fodera and Brubaker, excel live. There isn't a room on the planet where you won't be able to dial in your sound, and cut through the mix without sounding like crud, with one of those basses. I would challenge you to do that with even a vintage J or P.
What Jason and the boyz (and girl, yes Laura) do for the price is amazingly reasonable. As is attested by the people who buy and also "borrow" a Fodera. (A certain Pastorius currently has one a friend lent him and to my knowledge he isn't gonna give it back.)
Look, I'm an old school punk bass player. As long as it has strings and makes some noise it usually will suffice. But I play boutique in many situations. Because it can do much more for me then my old Silvertone 1442 did for me back in the day.
The same argument can be made with boutique amps. You can buy a decent Behringer for a buck a watt. Everyone else is at $3 or $4 a watt. Then you go boutique, and its $6 a watt in most cases.
I played the new Fuchs Bruiser bass amp last week. The consensus of all the TBers there was that we'd all have liked to take the rig to a larger venue and open her up and see what she could do....
They are absolutely worth it! A fender will be just fine for all your giging needs. However a boutique just feels right. I know some people say fenders action play just as well, however I must kindly disagree. I've found the fretwork on certain boutiques (not all of them) Is so far above and beyond that you can get action you can just breath on. Not to mention to me certain necks just feel right (cough Nordy)
I knew musicians were under-payed, but that is ridiculous.
Well, unless you bought that $300 bass back in the day
Davo-London said:
Yet I have a cello that is worth anywhere from $1000 to $5000 depending on who you ask that, imho, outperforms every sub $25k cello I have ever played. Does that mean it's better? Hell to the no. It just means that I really like it. Same thing holds true for basses. The people who notice a positive difference between a boutique and an off the shelf bass will go for the boutiques provided they can afford the price of entry. Those who notice either a negative or no difference between a boutique and an off the shelf will go for the off the shelf.
I have played a Fodera and it was truly amazing. No dead spots, beautiful tone, exceedingly comfortable, and it looked better than a good percentage of the visual art I have seen. However, I am not a good enough bassist nor do I have the disposable income to spend $3k on a bass. There are plenty of people, many of them on this very forum, for whom a Fodera makes perfect sense.
Tl;dr If it makes you happy and you can afford it, play it
Well my 2x4 bass with pickups that were made from refrigerator magnets and melted pennies, 2.5 strings, and a neck that is made of twigs hot-glued together will outplay your SX.
As a dude who doesn't, and probably will never own a Fodera, I love this response and your attitude. Great customer service.
