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Boutique basses

#121
Interesting thread. Looks like everyone has an opinion. An instrument, in my opinion, is a personal thing. If one works for you...go with it. If it makes you want to play more and improve, all the better. If it costs $300 and you love it great. If it costs $3000 and you love it...great.

I think that the beauty of "boutique" basses is that:

- They are made by craftsmen who love what they do and are, in some cases, playable art. They are a pleasure to own and play

- They also push the envelope and cause kind of a trickle down effect to the mass produced instruments. This makes things better for all of us.

Fodera basses are outstanding. I owned a monarch and loved it. Alembic basses are great also, I owned a Rogue and loved it.
I have owned many higher end basses and can say that they are worth the $ for those that have the $ and appreciate the fine craftsmanship.

But....I am also really amazed at the quality you can get at a reasonable price.

Case in point:

http://http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f8/ibanez-btb-575-really-876415/

So....just find a bass you love and play your heart out. No need to impress anyone but yourself with your axe. Play well and, no matter what you are playing, the audience will love it!

:bassist:
 
#122
Thanks, I enjoyed this week's version of the wedge thread. There is so much doofus to go around.
:D

I know it's too simple to recommend that if you feel a bass is worth what you'd pay for it, buy it and if by the same token you feel it's overpriced, overrated, overwhatever, don't. Live and let live.

But where's the fun in that. Instead anyone who prefers the advantages that are SOMETIMES offered by higher end wares has to walk on eggshells lest they be labelled the dreaded "snob". Good stuff.

I don't play golf. I wouldn't know a good putter from a long shoehorn BUT... I have sense enough not to lay a blanket dismissal on people who can appreciate the difference as snobs. Because it should and would make me appear not very bright.

I don't play like most bassists... yes, I still use fingers but that is not my point. If you can't keep up with this it's cool. Give it some time. I've worked on my technique to a point where I prefer to use ramps and my basses typically have lower action than many people care to deal with. That does require a more precise build and SOMETIMES that can lead to a higher priced build. IMO there's nothing wrong with that.

If you don't have that requirement than you likely won't be hampered by that need in an instrument. Great. I just sat with a guy who's still learning (but aren't we all? I'd hope) and while he'd had his hands on a few boutiques, I let him play one of my older Brubakers. Nothing fancy, just a bass set up the way I like. He loved it... up until that point he hadn't played a bass that required so little effort but put out a big controllable sound. Now of course I'm not saying this is the only way anyone can achieve this, my point is that this guy played something he genuinely liked over what he had previously played. He now had a new sense of what is possible.

I'm fine with people assuming why a group of people buy boutique let alone any instrument... frankly it's not very bright and with any luck that may dawn on them at some point. If not, cool. The basses I've bought, kept and used are here for one reason... I like what they do. If that weren't why I bought them they'd be long gone. There are plenty of high end basses I've laid hands on that were disappointing TO ME. I'd hope that most would have sense enough to understand that that is not an indictment on any brand, it's simply personal preference.

Threads like this always make me wonder if some folks actually mean the stuff they say or they're simply trying to score points. IMO boutique instruments aren't mainly about pretty woods though I clearly have no aversion to that. It's not about a laundry list of specs/parts. It's about the end result... if it does what I want it to do to a point where I can live with it's pricepoint, all is well.

And as someone who's bought a $4500+ bass USED for a grand... for those on a tighter budget, trying thinking outside the box once in a while. The idea that you have to be rich is just plain loopy. You can buy a used Camry for $4k and no one (I'd hope) would be dense enough to claim you were a snob or rich. But just buy a $4k bass and panties get interminably wadded. Why? Is it really that enjoyable?

I know these convos tip hard both ways, with the "You booteekers be snobs!" and the boutique guys who have a rager over others' (seemingly inexplicable) affinity for SX basses. I honestly don't get either side of that... then again, I'm really happy with what I've got and anyone who isn't doesn't have to play them so it's all good.
:cool:

BTW I am not a hobbyist and my gear pays for itself. Not that there's anything wrong with being a hobbyist. I am firmly entrenched in this music thing and what I use helps me to express myself. It makes my job easier. And who doesn't like things that make their job easier?
:D

And I own and play basses within a very wide price range lest anyone needs to assume I only play boutique instruments again:D. I like a good bass regardless of it's price point. Frankly I'm baffled by anyone who doesn't. And I'll leave you with this: the only thing guaranteed by spending a lot of money on an instrument is that you will have a lot of money into that instrument. Anything else is not a given. Don't think that because you paid more, you'll automatically get something that is "better" than something else. I see people saying otherwise and I almost cringe.
 
#126
what is a master luthier worth? let`s say...$50 per hour for the sake of argument. if it takes him or her two weeks @ that rate times forty hours per week to build you a handmade bass, you arrive at $4000 in labour alone never mind cost of materials +overhead.
considering lawyers are $250 an hour, service on your car at a dealer is $100+ an hour, it isn`t much really.
also, the reassurance that you are treated as an individual rather than a number is very important to most people. in my business my customers will go out of their way to see me because they are treated like gold.
for me, there is something about owning a labour of someones love. i couldn`t always afford a boutique instrument and i feel that if i want one, i can have one. (that is not to say i wouldn`t look for a great deal on a used one)
OTOH, i still have my first bass; a matsumoku vantage around $300 and i love the quality and feel of it. yes i have some pricy instruments as well but i don`t see it like that.
i am at an age where i like the finer things in life including basses. i like great wine and great food and great company. i don`t like mediocre anything but that is just me.
i appreciate fine things now because i wasn`t brought up with an inkling to know the difference and now i do.
 
#128
For my need's a Jazz Bass and P Bass suite me fine because I play in a bar band and like passive 4 Strings I never cared for Active electronics. I have played a few boutique basses MTD Fodera etc and I do appericate them alot but I could not justify the price since for me it would be a overkill for what I am doing .
It is cool though as Bass Players that we have so many diffrent choices .
 
#129
iJazz said:
Having just taken a peek at the Sadowsky web site I understand why exception to my comment has been made. From my perspective, though, the efforts there which are taken to explain the functional marketing positioning of their Tokyo offerings are as much political spin as they are factual declaration.

I am not suggesting that the Tokyo Sadowsky output equals or even approaches that of Fender's Squier operation. It seems obvious to me, however, that as a business move the establishment of the Metro was a solidly conceived profit motivated business stroke with market advantages over a simple expansion of on-shore expansion of production capacity. Am I really expected to believe that there is nowhere in America where the production of the reputed ultra-high Sadowsky quality of a solid body bass could occur? Sorry, I wasn't born yesterday. As growing businesses, mass marketers of a smaller scale, Sadowsky, apparently Lakland, and perhaps other supposed "boutique" manufacturers have taken to international production for business advantage and nothing more, which in my observation mimics the history of Fender, and thus my observation.

Looking more deeply at the Sadowsky site than I ever have, I see that they even offer rebranded NeoTek neoprene based straps to satisfy the demand for the Sadowsky brand lust. They also offer high quality arch-top six strings, only made in NY. In my eyes, that makes them a bass manufacturer with a boutique line of six string guitars. We can quibble over output numbers later.

I have a reasonable understanding of the concept of a boutique musical instrument operation in that Dad ran a drum shop out of our home basement for over 40 years. He did things no manufacturer could do simply based on the scale of his operation and the nature of some of the work he undertook in the course of his day to day work there. My first earnings ever were made taking apart drums at a quarter a piece. Good pay for a six year old in 1958.

I appreciate and respect your candor in response to my observations, Munjibunga. It is more than I suspect others are brave enough to offer. Seldom is it pretty when the curtain in Oz is pulled back.

iJazz - Just callin' them as I see them.
Click to expand...

One of my three Sadowskys is a Metro (made in Japan). The build quality of that bass far surpasses that of any of my three American Fenders and one Japanese Fender. While many Sadowsky basses mimic models of Fender in appearance, the attention to detail is not possible in the large-scale manufacturing practices of Fender and other mass-marketers. I don't think their business models are remotely comparable. Their target markets are completely different, too, even though the basses look similar.
 
#130
Just Thumpin' said:
Interesting...what are these statements based on? We have never said anything of the sort. The reality is that we build the finest instruments that we are capable of building and price them at a level that allows us to stay in business. Thankfully there are a fair number of players out there that dig what we do and this allows us to remain a viable business as well as being quality craftsmen. We are certainly not trying to compare ourselves to any other manufacturer out there.

One other word on pricing...I joined Fodera as a partner in October of 2009 but have been playing our instruments since long before that. The company's very first profitable year was 2011 -- in our 29 year history. In addition to being a bass player, I have a business degree from a pretty prestigious university. We would LOVE to build our instruments the way that we build them without compromising quality for a lot less money. Unfortunately, we simply can't. I have spent the last four years of my professional life trying to ensure that we understand exactly what makes our instruments what they are and have yet to come up with any magic cost-cutting ideas that wouldn't diminish the end result of our builds. As a matter of fact, our "per unit cost" has increased fairly significantly since I have been here as given any chance to do something the best that we can or the most economically prudent way, we always gravitate towards the former.

This thread appears in one form or another every month or so here on TB and while it makes for interesting reading, it really comes down to the fact that there are a lot of really wonderful bass makers out there satisfying every price point from $300 to $100,000 and all points in between (we are NOT the $100,000 builder). What's right for one person is not for another and that's totally cool...viva la difference...

On another note, my nearly 80 year-old mother-in-law has consistently been saying to me for 20+ years that she can't tell the difference between a $10 bottle of wine and a $100 bottle of wine. That bums me out as I have poured far more $50 bottles of wine at dinner for her than $10 bottles, and I cannot help but wonder just how much money has been "wasted" over the years in so doing!

So, just for fun, my wife and I recently offered her a blind tasting of four Pinot Noirs varying in price from $14 to $150 per bottle. We asked her to rank them in order of "quality" from HER perspective. She knows next to nothing about wine other than what she personally prefers. Her ranking directly corresponded to the prices of the wines and, yes, she preferred the $150 bottle far more than the $14 bottle -- although intellectually she was 100% certain that this wouldn't be the case. As she savored the last sips of the special bottle that we had opened (alas, the expensive one) she became a bit teary eyed and said, "I spent my whole life thinking there was no difference, think of how much joy I have missed."

So, I end here with an offer...those of you that are "certain" that you cannot tell the difference between the instruments that we build and a $300 budget bass, please pay us a visit at the shop. See what we do. Bring your favorite instrument (be it $300, $1,000 or $100,000) with you and play some of ours alongside it. If you still love the one you are with more...fabulous! If you prefer what we are doing, well that's great too. Just don't be my mother-in-law and assume things will be a certain way...find out for yourself!

And one last thing, as was posted earlier by "nostatic," the reason that we hope that you'll pay us a visit is so that we can be certain that the instrument that we put in your hands is truly representative of us. Trying a "friend's" Fodera that may have been built for a player with completely different sonic and ergonomic goals and/or not be set-up properly for the way you play might leave you feeling like you have answered the question when, in fact you may not have.

Cheers,

Jason
Click to expand...

I love this response, that's awesome.

I peeked at this thread as I'm also curious about what separates the boutique instrument from a run of the mill Fender. I was dismayed but honestly unsurprised at the religious debate I found, that always seems to happen on TB, drives me "les nuts" as the French don't say.

I play and am happy playing a run of the mill American Fender, and can't justify spending more, but was happy to pay what I did for mine. Unfortunately for me, there are no boutique dealers nearby (Nova Scotia, Canada), so I may never get a chance to quench my boutique curiosity, so threads like this - at least the serious and on-topic responses - are of interest to me.

I can't say I'm any more clear as a result of reading this, just that I have to try one to understand. I understand the wine analogy. For ten years I sold high end computer systems in a niche market, competing against Dell and other Intel-based systems. The quality of engineering really was far superior, and QA, customer service, accessibility of engineering staff to customers to answer questions, etc were all things that differentiated us from our competition, and justified the much higher price for many large Fortune 500 customers who literally ran their businesses on our gear. We were passionate about our company, from the CEO down to the receptionist, and it makes a huge difference in "everything."

So I get it. I just wanna play one. Once. And not buy it. :-)
 
#132
You know, a lot of these threads crop up, and it's always a variant of the same thing: what makes your boutique worth so much more than my off-the-peg axe? And it always turns into. A p****** match between the sour grapes set and the aristocrats, with the rest of us hiding in foxholes in between.

As someone who just spent $5k on a boutique bass, I can honest say that no, boutiques are not 'worth' the price tag. But that's a) not the point, and b) only half the story.

If one is asking whether a $5000 Sadowsky performs five times better than a $1000 Fender, then no, boutiques just ain't worth it. But we're kind of getting buried under intangibles, here: What makes a bass play 'well' in a world where we don't all even agree on what string height is most comfortable? Conversely, if a potential buyer values certain other intangibles, like being able to discuss a build with the builder, select a specific piece of top wood and know that his new axe isn't being ground off an assembly line, then that skews the worth aspect in the boutique's favour. To me, all these things justify the ultimate cost involved in going through the what for me was a very heavy financial process and associated wait for a boutique bass. Well, that and the rock-solid knowledge that at the end of that process, there would be an extremely well-made bass waiting for me.

I guess I see it this way: an MIM Fender will perform just fine on stage or in studio; a boutique bass will make every note a little more exciting.
 
#133
IMO, the term "boutique" is often confused with "small company" or "small batch", etc... I consider Foderas and Sadowskis to be boutique. I also consider small batch Luthiers to be boutique builders also, even though the bass I currently have on order with one is costing a lot less.

The best playing bass I ever touched was a Music Man Singray Classic. Worth every penny of the nearly 2 grand price tag. My Ric costed nearly as much played half as well. Neither are considered boutique, but the MM played like one. A repair tech at the corner music store is attempting to build parts basses, and he had a Jazz bass on the wall the other day. I nearly bought it because it played nearly as nice as the Stingray for $999 less.

It's confusing. I believe there's a breaking point when you can't spend more and FEEL it in the instrument. But to each their own. If someone wants to plop 9 grand on a bass, whatever.
 
#134
I think I'll add this to the discussion. The reason many of the "boutique" builders have added import lines is specifically for this reason. That is, to introduce the player who normally can't afford or can't see buying a boutique sight unseen or played to the unique features of his or her high end basses.

Mike Tobias, who is an amazing builder and human being, is a good example. If you purchase his Kingston KZ line, you get many of the features you would find on the boutique build at a fraction of the cost. The KZ5 I own (and am selling cheap by the way) has the body and neck shape of the high end MTD, and an electronics system that is similar. The US made and custom 535s are better in some ways, and well worth the price, however if you want some of the special qualities the KZ really does give it to you. It is a great bass, and it does make you understand better what you get when you bump up.

There was a thread here by a customer who came to Larry's bass lounge and tried out the Brubaker Brutes and a Brubaker Boutique. I think he gave his impressions on the thread. I encourage you to check it out so you can see what the average player thinks of the differences.

FODERA IS WORTH MORE THEN YOU PAY. That is my opinion. Jason will personally take care of you, like he does in this thread. MTD USA IS WORTH MORE THEN YOU PAY. CARL THOMPSON IS WORTH MORE THEN YOU PAY. Value is relative, but there is no doubt that custom instrurments are worth the money.The dirty little secret for decades have been that most superstars NEVER played a stock instrument. Every company has an Artists Relations dept. that customizes the guitar or bass for the superstars, essentially making even production instruments near boutiqe. Why? Because the added expense of having a neck shaped for you personally, or having special wiring and electronics is always worth more then you pay, as it can truly be reflected in your playing.

I actually don't like threads like this that talk about "is it worth it." That is a poor question. I think Jason puts it best about what you get with a boutique bass, versus what you don't get.

I got to play a new Kubicki that Phil just made in his shop by hand. I compared it to my production Kubicki that Phil also made, only in a more mass produced way. Believe it or not, I could feel and hear the difference.

My two pennies....
 
#135
I'll admit that I once was anti boutique and thought they were overrated and over priced but things have changed. When I became aware of Brubaker basses I heard that sound that spoke to me. I've seen videos of guys playing one boutique bass (won't mention the builder)and then going to a Brubaker right after that and it hit me again, the sound that spoke to me. I tried the waters by buying a Brute MJX-5 at first and for the money nothing else sounds like a Brute especially in that price range. As a result of much study, analysis and soul searching I'm making the move to purchase my first Boutique Brubaker KXB-5. Am I a gear snob? No. I just finally heard something that spoke to me, and worth the price I am going to pay for it. And, I know already that this will not be my last Brubaker purchase. People and opinions change. I did. All it takes is to for you to hear that which speaks to you. The cost of the bass is not speaking to me, it's the sound of the Brubaker and how I hear things and how I hear myself playing the Brubaker. I've been playing long enough to justify such a purchase and for now the right instrument for me is about to happen. I love playing my Brubaker Brute and I'm spreading the word wherever I go. Sometimes I get some love, sometimes I don't. It's all about finding your voice on a given instrument. I have several cheap cult classic basses like a SX Jazz, an OLP MM 5 Copy, Carlo Robelli Silver Sparlkle 8 string bass, and a decent Made in Japan Geddy Lee. I won't like them any less when I get my KXB-5 it's just that my perspectives and opinions have changed. And it seems to me that the Brubaker players I have communicated with are particular people with particular tastes but all good people in their own right. I share with them the liking of the way Brubaker basses are voiced. To each his own, love playing the bass, and find the bass or basses that allow you to find your voice. Like Victor Bailey I'm Slippin and Trippin.
 
#136
phillybass101 said:
...a decent Made in Japan Geddy Lee. I won't like them any less when I get my KXB-5 it's just that my perspectives and opinions have changed. To each his own, love playing the bass, and finf the bass or basses that allow you to find your voice.
Click to expand...

If I get a Roscoe or not, I will keep my Geddy. It's a great bass that works for me. After all the years of swapping basses I have finally learned that I should keep one "do it all" bass.

I am GAS'ing HARD for a Roscoe Century Standard 6 JJ though...
 
#137
SteveC said:
If I get a Roscoe or not, I will keep my Geddy. It's a great bass that works for me. After all the years of swapping basses I have finally learned that I should keep one "do it all" bass.

I am GAS'ing HARD for a Roscoe Century Standard 6 JJ though...
Click to expand...

Yeah... I got my SKB, but I still have my old Washburn copy of a Steinburger. I don't use it nearly as much as I thought I would, but I'll be keeping it. And frankly, I wish I still had my old 70's Jazz. It was a great player at the time, and I wonder what I'd think of it now!
 
#138
It is funny that some people are anti this and anti that.
Used to be closed minded and would question anyone who did not play a Fender and when I when I started learning more about different instruments realized I was being totally closed minded.
When I showed up to Band Practice with a Hamer Cruise Bass my band mates were why don't you play a Fender. I am like this Bass has a 2-Tek bridge while not boutique bass you get the idea
If my wife told me honey go buy any bass you want I would be running out so fast it would make your head spin I would love a MTD .
 
#139
Harpo61 said:
It is funny that some people are anti this and anti that.
Used to be closed minded and would question anyone who did not play a Fender and when I when I started learning more about different instruments realized I was being totally closed minded.
When I showed up to Band Practice with a Hamer Cruise Bass my band mates were why don't you play a Fender. I am like this Bass has a 2-Tek bridge while not boutique bass you get the idea
If my wife told me honey go buy any bass you want I would be running out so fast it would make your head spin I would love a MTD .
Click to expand...

The old Hamer Cruise with the 2 TEK is one sweet production bass, one of the best built in its day, with great tone! Tell your band mates to stick to guitars....
 

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