Branford Marsalis' take on students today

[John Wentzien]

I dont think its as bad as you think I think you think I think you think it is, lmao! But seriously, I did put out the disclaimer that yeah, im young and I admit I have a lot to learn, just another thing learned, dont argue with you elders on talkbass, lol.

Dmarnit! Now I feel old!

Don't you guys feel sorry for me?

 

[DougD]

Just as a public service announcement, anyone who has found themselves complaining about kids today:

You are officially old.

It's okay, and I understand. In fact I first realized I was old much earlier than I thought I would. Around my 3rd year of teaching or so when I was 26.

Wthin EVERY generation is a widely held belief that the next one is lazy, disrespectful, selfish and generally lacking.

The more things change . . .

Too true

 

[Time Consumer]

Dmarnit! Now I feel old!

Don't you guys feel sorry for me?

A lil, you are more than twice my age.

 

[John Wentzien]

A lil, you are more than twice my age.

That made me feel better

 

[fdeck]

Here's my teaching story. I taught freshman "pre calculus" math at a Big Ten university for one semester. I had never taught anything before, except training unskilled workers in a factory. My office mate taught the same course. He was a much better mathematician than me.

My colleague thought that his students were universally lazy, dishonest, self-entitled brats, who wanted everything spoon fed to them. He taught them the correct facts. If they didn't understand him, he repeated the same facts for them. He berated them in class and got more and more fed up.

I took a different approach. I left my ego at the door and adapted to the situation. I treated my students with respect, but did not relinquish authority. There's a difference between telling and teaching. I taught. When my students didn't understand something, I found a different way to explain it.

Exam time. All of the 20-odd teachers for this course had the same text, syllabus, exams, and grading standards. My students did considerably better on the exams than those of my colleague. We compared papers, and it was obvious that my students had learned more math.

 

[John Wentzien]

A lil, you are more than twice my age.

I'll tell ya what...I'm glad I lasted this long!...Its a tuff "BIZ"

A LOT of great musicians I've known have either "passed-on" or quit in my day!

 

[NineSpine]

Here's my teaching story. I taught freshman "pre calculus" math at a Big Ten university for one semester. I had never taught anything before, except training unskilled workers in a factory. My office mate taught the same course. He was a much better mathematician than me.

My colleague thought that his students were universally lazy, dishonest, self-entitled brats, who wanted everything spoon fed to them. He taught them the correct facts. If they didn't understand him, he repeated the same facts for them. He berated them in class and got more and more fed up.

I took a different approach. I left my ego at the door and adapted to the situation. I treated my students with respect, but did not relinquish authority. There's a difference between telling and teaching. I taught. When my students didn't understand something, I found a different way to explain it.

Exam time. All of the 20-odd teachers for this course had the same text, syllabus, exams, and grading standards. My students did considerably better on the exams than those of my colleague. We compared papers, and it was obvious that my students had learned more math.

That's a great story, because I think it sums up the reality of what is going on.

JAUQO: There are two reasons that people are the way they are: Genetics or Environment (Nature vs Nurture). You repeatedly saying that the kids today are all lazy, self-entitled brats. However, you refuse to believe that this is because of the older generations. Newsflash: It's the job of the older generations to raise the new ones right. That's the "environment" part. If you don't think that those generations did anything wrong in that regard, the only thing left is genetics. Do you think the new generations are genetically inferior? I doubt it. Your point has no basis. It's clear that all of your complaints, which are dramatically overblown and based simply on your own rose-tinted view of the past, are based on things which are clearly failures of YOUR generation, such as letting TV raise all the kids.

The kids have ALWAYS been a little lazy and ALWAYS had a sense of entitlement. Is it a little worse now? Probably, but only because of the pathetic job of parenting and being stewards of our society that the generations before us did. Is it dramatically worse? No.

The older generations have been driving this country into the ground since the 80s and now you want a "thank you" for it. The fact that the current youth is even remotely coping with the pile of crap you have handed them says a lot, and it's proof that they are significantly stronger than you believe.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

That's a great story, because I think it sums up the reality of what is going on.

JAUQO: There are two reasons that people are the way they are: Genetics or Environment (Nature vs Nurture). You repeatedly saying that the kids today are all lazy, self-entitled brats. However, you refuse to believe that this is because of the older generations. Newsflash: It's the job of the older generations to raise the new ones right. That's the "environment" part. If you don't think that those generations did anything wrong in that regard, the only thing left is genetics. Do you think the new generations are genetically inferior? I doubt it. Your point has no basis. It's clear that all of your complaints, which are dramatically overblown and based simply on your own rose-tinted view of the past, are based on things which are clearly failures of YOUR generation, such as letting TV raise all the kids.

The kids have ALWAYS been a little lazy and ALWAYS had a sense of entitlement. Is it a little worse now? Probably, but only because of the pathetic job of parenting and being stewards of our society that the generations before us did. Is it dramatically worse? No.

The older generations have been driving this country into the ground since the 80s and now you want a "thank you" for it. The fact that the current youth is even remotely coping with the pile of crap you have handed them says a lot, and it's proof that they are significantly stronger than you believe.

I never ever said that the kids today are all lazy. I'm not that narrow minded + my experiences tells me that all kids aren't lazy.

Go back and read my post throughout this entire thread.

 

[John Wentzien]

The "WWII" generation ..SAVED this country..read up!

 

[abngourmet]

That's a great story, because I think it sums up the reality of what is going on.

JAUQO: There are two reasons that people are the way they are: Genetics or Environment (Nature vs Nurture). You repeatedly saying that the kids today are all lazy, self-entitled brats. However, you refuse to believe that this is because of the older generations. Newsflash: It's the job of the older generations to raise the new ones right. That's the "environment" part. If you don't think that those generations did anything wrong in that regard, the only thing left is genetics. Do you think the new generations are genetically inferior? I doubt it. Your point has no basis. It's clear that all of your complaints, which are dramatically overblown and based simply on your own rose-tinted view of the past, are based on things which are clearly failures of YOUR generation, such as letting TV raise all the kids.

The kids have ALWAYS been a little lazy and ALWAYS had a sense of entitlement. Is it a little worse now? Probably, but only because of the pathetic job of parenting and being stewards of our society that the generations before us did. Is it dramatically worse? No.

The older generations have been driving this country into the ground since the 80s and now you want a "thank you" for it. The fact that the current youth is even remotely coping with the pile of crap you have handed them says a lot, and it's proof that they are significantly stronger than you believe.

I'd be interested to know what the "older generations" have been doing to "drive this country into the ground." I'm asking for specifics here (places, names, dates, events, and the impacts on our country by the same). That's a very broad generalization to make, and I'd be interested to hear/read your factual basis for it. If you're going to suggest that your generation has been handed a "pile of crap" by previous generations, you should be able to back it up with specifics.

And you are right, it is the job of parents (your word was generation) to raise children. I submit there is a vast difference between the way the kids of my generation were raised than those that came after us. We, for example, didn't use helmets when riding bikes (although it's probably a good idea to do so in the event one falls). Our parents didn't have a lot of digital things to use as babysitters, either, so TV wasn't used as a surrogate as much. I recall spending much of my childhood outside with my friends, doing the things kids always do.

I personally don't have a rose-tinted view of the past. There were both good and bad things about it. And I think your assertion that kids have always been less than industrious has some merit. This being said, the main difference I note as I grow older is that while previous generations may have been "slackers" (to use the vernacular of the day) at some point, they were certainly not in other ways. No one in my "generation" would have even thought of arguing with a teacher for a grade that we clearly did not earn (nor would our parents). We would not have considered for a moment of showing up for a job interview in anything less than a suit. We would call a place we were working (from a pay phone or a landline - no cell phones back then! ) if we were going to be late or were sick. I saw the exact opposite of all these things occur while I was at school (with the exception of a job interview).

I will say that I have seen that many of today's generation do have a sense of entitlement. Part of it is society's fault (government programs, like social security, medicare, welfare, etc. mostly) and part is their parent's fault. It's almost as if younger folks think that they're owed something. They're not, trust me. Nor am I owed anything, at the ripe old age of 48.

What most folks are entitled to, IMHO, is an opportunity. That is the one great thing about this country - it is truly the land of opportunity. I'm not naive enough to believe that the opportunities out there are equally obtainable for all - they're not - but they're out there nonetheless. Our history is replete with too many examples of folks who've overcome incredible odds to succeed for me to believe otherwise. The common denominators? Determination, drive, focus, desire, and most of all, hard, hard work.

What really amuses me is when a young person says "you're disrespecting me." I've got news for them - respect is earned. It is not a given. They'd do well to remember that - I learned that lesson the hard way, trust me!

Anyway, I'd like to hear the specifics of your positions if you'll indulge me.

Alan

 

[powerbass]

There are 2 sides to this coin. The faults of youth are actually the faults of the adults - parents, teachers all of us that make up our society. Collectively we set the rules for the kids to follow. Whatever strengths/weaknesses we see in them we are actually seeing our collective, society values reflected. As a parent of a 7 yr old, raising a child is like steering a raft down rapids. I have to work hard to teach my son how to be respectful, disciplined, focused, kind and not self centered. Playing sports, music and keeping him away from media and digital toys helps. The other side of the coin is we have created a society where we, as consumers of everything, feel extremely entitled to have it our own way right or wrong.

 

[derridiandrift]

And I agree with him.

+1

 

[fdeck]

I never ever said that the kids today are all lazy. I'm not that narrow minded + my experiences tells me that all kids aren't lazy.

Go back and read my post throughout this entire thread.

I think that you have spoken a lot more eloquently than Mr. Marsalis did in his video. This may simply be because of two different circumstances:

To give Mr. Marsalis the benefit of the doubt, he was given a few seconds to talk into a video camera, and used the time to deliver a shocking polemic.

But polemics and outrageous absolutes don't work very well on Web forums, so we have re-stated his position in more measured terms.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

I think that you have spoken a lot more eloquently than Mr. Marsalis did in his video. This may simply be because of two different circumstances:

To give Mr. Marsalis the benefit of the doubt, he was given a few seconds to talk into a video camera, and used the time to deliver a shocking polemic.

But polemics and outrageous absolutes don't work very well on Web forums, so we have re-stated his position in more measured terms.

Thank you.



And I'm glad that you have accurately taken note that no matter how many in this thread want to believe or insist that I said all youth are lazy when I never did, is just a reminder that some people only read what they choose to read.

Even when it's not before their eyes.

 

[Deluge Of Sound]

That's a great story, because I think it sums up the reality of what is going on.

JAUQO: There are two reasons that people are the way they are: Genetics or Environment (Nature vs Nurture). You repeatedly saying that the kids today are all lazy, self-entitled brats. However, you refuse to believe that this is because of the older generations. Newsflash: It's the job of the older generations to raise the new ones right. That's the "environment" part. If you don't think that those generations did anything wrong in that regard, the only thing left is genetics. Do you think the new generations are genetically inferior? I doubt it. Your point has no basis. It's clear that all of your complaints, which are dramatically overblown and based simply on your own rose-tinted view of the past, are based on things which are clearly failures of YOUR generation, such as letting TV raise all the kids.

The kids have ALWAYS been a little lazy and ALWAYS had a sense of entitlement. Is it a little worse now? Probably, but only because of the pathetic job of parenting and being stewards of our society that the generations before us did. Is it dramatically worse? No.

The older generations have been driving this country into the ground since the 80s and now you want a "thank you" for it. The fact that the current youth is even remotely coping with the pile of crap you have handed them says a lot, and it's proof that they are significantly stronger than you believe.

The first part of your argument is wrong. Nature vs. Nurture is now widely (and, IMO, rightly) considered to be a false dichotomy.


Secondly, I don't think you extend your argument far enough, long enough, or accurately enough to support your point (which I do find myself agreeing with), and even then your point is tangential.

I'd be interested to know what the "older generations" have been doing to "drive this country into the ground." I'm asking for specifics here (places, names, dates, events, and the impacts on our country by the same). That's a very broad generalization to make, and I'd be interested to hear/read your factual basis for it. If you're going to suggest that your generation has been handed a "pile of crap" by previous generations, you should be able to back it up with specifics.

And you are right, it is the job of parents (your word was generation) to raise children. I submit there is a vast difference between the way the kids of my generation were raised than those that came after us. We, for example, didn't use helmets when riding bikes (although it's probably a good idea to do so in the event one falls). Our parents didn't have a lot of digital things to use as babysitters, either, so TV wasn't used as a surrogate as much. I recall spending much of my childhood outside with my friends, doing the things kids always do.

I personally don't have a rose-tinted view of the past. There were both good and bad things about it. And I think your assertion that kids have always been less than industrious has some merit. This being said, the main difference I note as I grow older is that while previous generations may have been "slackers" (to use the vernacular of the day) at some point, they were certainly not in other ways. No one in my "generation" would have even thought of arguing with a teacher for a grade that we clearly did not earn (nor would our parents). We would not have considered for a moment of showing up for a job interview in anything less than a suit. We would call a place we were working (from a pay phone or a landline - no cell phones back then! ) if we were going to be late or were sick. I saw the exact opposite of all these things occur while I was at school (with the exception of a job interview).

I will say that I have seen that many of today's generation do have a sense of entitlement. Part of it is society's fault (government programs, like social security, medicare, welfare, etc. mostly) and part is their parent's fault. It's almost as if younger folks think that they're owed something. They're not, trust me. Nor am I owed anything, at the ripe old age of 48.

What most folks are entitled to, IMHO, is an opportunity. That is the one great thing about this country - it is truly the land of opportunity. I'm not naive enough to believe that the opportunities out there are equally obtainable for all - they're not - but they're out there nonetheless. Our history is replete with too many examples of folks who've overcome incredible odds to succeed for me to believe otherwise. The common denominators? Determination, drive, focus, desire, and most of all, hard, hard work.

What really amuses me is when a young person says "you're disrespecting me." I've got news for them - respect is earned. It is not a given. They'd do well to remember that - I learned that lesson the hard way, trust me!

Anyway, I'd like to hear the specifics of your positions if you'll indulge me.

Alan

Hey, I'd be happy to indulge you, if you give me a night's sleep (to shake off the awful, awful game the Celtics are playing).

 

[abngourmet]

Stipulated. I look forward to your response.

 

[Time Consumer]

Thank you.



And I'm glad that you have accurately taken note that no matter how many in this thread want to believe or insist that I said all youth are lazy when I never did, is just a reminder that some people only read what they choose to read.

Even when it's not before their eyes.

Yeah, thats funny cuz thats why I changed my tone, I went back and read more of the earlier posts and decided there's nothing for me to argue cuz nobody is attacking my "generation" even if thats the word thats used.

 

[John Wentzien]

One constant through ALL of the generations from the beginning of recorded history......."wish I knew then..what I know now" ....

AND!!!!
"My Dad wasn't as full of S**t as I thought he was!"

(edit) guess thats 2 things

 

[JAUQO III-X]

Yeah, thats funny cuz thats why I changed my tone, I went back and read more of the earlier posts and decided there's nothing for me to argue cuz nobody is attacking my "generation" even if thats the word thats used.

And you're right, no one is attacking your generation.


For the most part people are just sharing their experiences with how they co-exist with your generation.


Some really are lazy and some really do work hard for what they want.

 

[longfinger]

A lot of what Branford says in that quote is true, but what my issue with it is how he removes himself from all the problems, when clearly he himself is mired in the same 'full of s**t' mentality as his students.

some old proverbs...(cliches.)

The apple does not fall far from the tree.
A poor carpenter blames his tools.
A bad teacher blames his students.

Here's my teaching story. I taught freshman "pre calculus" math at a Big Ten university for one semester. I had never taught anything before, except training unskilled workers in a factory. My office mate taught the same course. He was a much better mathematician than me.

My colleague thought that his students were universally lazy, dishonest, self-entitled brats, who wanted everything spoon fed to them. He taught them the correct facts. If they didn't understand him, he repeated the same facts for them. He berated them in class and got more and more fed up.

I took a different approach. I left my ego at the door and adapted to the situation. I treated my students with respect, but did not relinquish authority. There's a difference between telling and teaching. I taught. When my students didn't understand something, I found a different way to explain it.

Exam time. All of the 20-odd teachers for this course had the same text, syllabus, exams, and grading standards. My students did considerably better on the exams than those of my colleague. We compared papers, and it was obvious that my students had learned more math.

Way to go Francis. A real teacher who actually earned his salary.

You're colleague at that time, was very similar to like his conception of his students.
: ... were universally lazy, dishonest, self-entitled brats, who wanted everything spoon fed to them. ".

Sounds like him as a teacher, way back in those days.
*lazy: does not want to teach or work with students who needed guidance
*dishonest: incorrectly labeling the students as bad, when it was himself who had the problems
*self-entitled brat who wanted everything spoon fed to him: yep, that was him. He wanted a class that already knew the material and did not need him to teach them anything. But then, why would he be paid to be there?



I also find it amusing that most of the Pro-Branford posters on youtube, just want to tell Branford how good he is, and how talented he is , They seem to all want to at the same time together. Few of those supporters want to ask him to consider, is he himself delusional just like his students? Are they all mired in the same trap? Maybe his delusional students learned their ways from him?

I would change one word throughout his "made for TV" speech..

swap "students" with "teachers". Listen to it again, but each time swap "students" with "teachers". Oh my, Mr. Marsalis, are you speaking of yourself?


Compare his tirade (good for "Sound bite" driven TV) to the words for young musicians by a Real Master, Mr. Sonny Rollins.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
What advice do you have for young musicians?

"I would say that they have to love what they are doing. Never mind the material. A lot of people come to me — a lot of kids — "Gee, Sonny. What should I practice? How can I get to be a successful musician?" You have to love what you are doing, and if you are not hurting anybody or harming anybody else, that's it. Just stay on that path. If you are looking for money for material success, I have no advice, because I don't want to think like that, I don't believe that's the meaning of life. I am not a materialist, I don't believe in consumerism."




And finally, I'll offer this quote we all know, but we all struggle to embody.

Mahatma Gandhi, "Be the change you want to see in the world."